Differences in style/leadership/etc between the RMT and ASLEF

[DB]

As long as train drivers are getting up at 01.00 to go to work they are working class in my book. I’ll never get my head around members of ASLEF voting for the tories.

Don't doctors also get up at that sort of time depending on shift?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Don't doctors also get up at that sort of time depending on shift?

And airline pilots, none of whom ever look working class to me.
Also anybody keeping 24*365 essential services going (internet, banking, energy, shipping, police etc - a long list).

 

[Mr Micawber]

The great E.P Thompson in his ground breaking work of social and cultural history of 1963, The Making of the English Working Class, defined class thus:

'Class happens when some men, as a result of common experiences (inherited or shared), feel and articulate the identity of their interests as between themselves, and as against other men whose interests are different from (and usually opposed to) theirs.'

This would suggest its not simply how much you earn that defines you as Working Class.

Semi Detached houses, good cars etc., may have been associated primarily in the past with the middle class. However you could have these assets and still remain Working Class.

 

[quantinghome]

The role of the train driver was not then and still isn't in decline. Perhaps you are confusing the footplate line of promotion with the abolition of steam and all the labour redundant from MPDs. A train goes nowhere without a competent person at the controls and Covid is making that really difficult at some TOCs.

Drivers who had spent the previous twelve months training and passing out, but unable to route learn due to the one in a cab rule. Unable to route learn any other way they have been sat at home since March on a training salary.

No, I'm thinking about the number of trains (passenger and freight) that ran in 1950 compared to the number in 1980. I don't have the figures but surely there would have been more drivers needed in the former year than the latter. I'm also thinking about the fight to keep the secondman in the 80s and 90s.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Absolutely spot on!!
On the subject of voting Tory I can bet you that there are more Tory voters working on the railway and on these forums than there ever has been. They just remain quite and don’t shout it from the rooftops like Labour supporters do!!

I can relate!

 

[eldomtom2]

The great E.P Thompson in his ground breaking work of social and cultural history of 1963, The Making of the English Working Class, defined class thus:

'Class happens when some men, as a result of common experiences (inherited or shared), feel and articulate the identity of their interests as between themselves, and as against other men whose interests are different from (and usually opposed to) theirs.'

This would suggest its not simply how much you earn that defines you as Working Class.

Semi Detached houses, good cars etc., may have been associated primarily in the past with the middle class. However you could have these assets and still remain Working Class.

Defining class as a matter of political views causes a lot of problems, though it is perhaps unsurprising that a communist would want to hide the members of the working class with the "wrong" opinions.

 

[Horizon22]

Absolutely spot on!!



Can you imagine saying to someone working in the care home industry who works for minimum wage, 50hr weeks, 5/6 days a week that your working class. Oh! and BTW me and the wife/husband earn over £60k each, driver a brand new Range Rover and going back to my 4 bedroom detached house!! They would just laugh in your face.

On the subject of voting Tory I can bet you that there are more Tory voters working on the railway and on these forums than there ever has been. They just remain quite and don’t shout it from the rooftops like Labour supporters do!!

You only have to look at the few recent comments on here what happens when you might even dare to vote Tory!

This is why I think railway workers and the RMT in particular need to be very aware of what public opinion might be when they call for strikes / work to rule as I'm not sure there will be that much sympathy considering how many years of above inflation wage rises many in the industry have been able to receive.

 

[dk1]

Drivers who had spent the previous twelve months training and passing out, but unable to route learn due to the one in a cab rule. Unable to route learn any other way they have been sat at home since March on a training salary.

I take it then that some TOCs/LDCs have not agreed to 'bubble' training?

 

[142blue]

To answer the question about bus drivers yes they do

 

[Tetchytyke]

I’ll never get my head around members of ASLEF voting for the tories.

I do, social conservatism.

That and the dawning realisation that £50k is a damn good wage and suddenly "taxing the rich" means you.

But mainly the social conservatism.

 

[Mojo]

Don't doctors also get up at that sort of time depending on shift?

No, most occupations have fixed shift start times; typically doctors and others would work a shift pattern that involves nights or a reduced level of staffing overnight so would start at something around 6-7am.

Not quite sure what time a shift involving a 1am wake up would start; personally I’m of the belief that any shifts starting before 4am should really be a night shift as it isn’t really right for people to be starting work at such a time. I know of at least one company that has in their agreements that duties for drivers cannot start or finish between certain times (service disruption excepted).

 

[43066]

Not quite sure what time a shift involving a 1am wake up would start; personally I’m of the belief that any shifts starting before 4am should really be a night shift as it isn’t really right for people to be starting work at such a time. I know of at least one company that has in their agreements that duties for drivers cannot start or finish between certain times (service disruption excepted).

Freight drivers can book on at one or two in the morning and be expected to do a full twelve hour running turn ending mid afternoon! Drivers (and guards) who live seventy or eighty miles away from their depots might also find themselves getting up very early to travel in for a 0400 book on, for example.

 

[ABB125]

Freight drivers can book on at one or two in the morning and be expected to do a full twelve hour running turn ending mid afternoon! Drivers (and guards) who live seventy or eighty miles away from their depots might also find themselves getting up very early to travel in for a 0400 book on, for example.

But living that far away is (presumably) a choice that driver had made, so they have to suffer the consequences accordingly.
Although some will no doubt enjoy early starts!

 

[LowLevel]

But living that far away is (presumably) a choice that driver had made, so they have to suffer the consequences accordingly.
Although some will no doubt enjoy early starts!

Common issue in London in all walks of life. The furthest London daily commute I come across at work (and I know there are further) is a permanent way worker living in Boston, Lincolnshire who works permanent nights for London Underground.

 

[43066]

But living that far away is (presumably) a choice that driver had made, so they have to suffer the consequences accordingly.
Although some will no doubt enjoy early starts!

I agree someone living as far away as that is clearly making a choice to accept a long commute, although (as @LowLevel alludes to), that’s by no means unknown in London due to property prices.

Then again we also have a non London depot with book-ons from around 0230 (their first early shifts book on before the last late shifts finish). Even if you live a stone‘s throw from the depot, that’s going to hurt!

 

[the sniper]

On the subject of voting Tory I can bet you that there are more Tory voters working on the railway and on these forums than there ever has been. They just remain quite and don’t shout it from the rooftops like Labour supporters do!!

You only have to look at the few recent comments on here what happens when you might even dare to vote Tory!

• Turkeys voting for Christmas
• Quite another being out and proud tory

So let’s not pull down anyone for their political believes, like I said before we are one big railway family and need to stick together especially through these hard time!!

I appreciate you've already taken my comments out of context, but maybe the context wasn't obvious enough. Do you not think there's a bizarre conflict of interest involved in Guards who go from openly advertising how proud they were to support the Tories, reposting their propaganda on Facebook, one even being a member of the Conservative Party, to then being all for industrial action when they came for the Guards?

I haven't actually mentioned Drivers. Many have come in during the good times when Drivers have only been considered 'highly paid respected professionals', that's all they know. Many have come from other Professions. It's easy to see why many will vote that way for pragmatic reasons, at least. We'll see how loyal they are to the Party when they come for the Railway Pension Scheme...

And for the record, I don't advocate any political party.

 

[43066]

This is why I think railway workers and the RMT in particular need to be very aware of what public opinion might be when they call for strikes / work to rule as I'm not sure there will be that much sympathy considering how many years of above inflation wage rises many in the industry have been able to receive.

The rail unions are there to serve the best interests of their members. Public opinion doesn’t come into it. It’s a shame the British public seem to embrace a “race to the bottom”.

To be fair, it’s also not as if either union has threatened strike action over pay for some years (contrast with nurses, doctors and airline pilots) so the “greedy overpaid railstaff” trope is inaccurate.

I appreciate you've already taken my comments out of context, but maybe the context wasn't obvious enough. Do you not think there's a bizarre conflict of interest involved in Guards who go from openly advertising how proud they were to support the Tories, reposting their propaganda on Facebook, one even being a member of the Conservative Party, to then being all for industrial action when they came for the Guards?

I haven't actually mentioned Drivers. Many have come in during the good times when Drivers have only been considered 'highly paid respected professionals', that's all they know. Many have come from other Professions. It's easy to see why many will vote that way for pragmatic reasons, at least. We'll see how loyal they are to the Party when they come for the Railway Pension Scheme...

And for the record, I don't advocate any political party.

Presumably, as politically active individuals, they’re well aware of said “conflict of interests” and have reconciled it in their own minds. And, with all due respect, what business is it of yours which political parties your colleagues might support? For someone who professes to have no interest in any political party, you show an unusual interest in the politics of your colleagues!

There’s still an unpleasant undercurrent in some railway messrooms, along the lines that only certain political opinions are acceptable. That attitude belongs in the 1970s, along with the disgustingly racist and homophobic views I’ve heard expressed, usually by the self proclaimed messroom Union bores, who profess to hate us Tories.

Of course being a Tory has nothing to do with those attitudes, but many of the union dinosaurs can barely read words of more than one syllable, let alone understand politics, so their political views boil down to the binary position of “Tory bad” “Labour good” without any understanding of what either party stands for.

People like that occupy binary positions. They cannot critically analyse their own political views, let alone interpret mine. Asking why they have any particular view at all is as futile (and about as interesting) as asking a moth why it flies towards a flame.

What I find most ironic, and something that exposes their stupidity, is the lunacy of both unions wanting to renationalise the railway which is a far better example of Turkeys voting for Christmas than your Tory guard colleagues!

 

[the sniper]

Presumably, as politically active individuals, they’re well aware of said “conflict of interests” and have reconciled it in their own minds. And, with all due respect, what business is it of yours which political parties your colleagues might support? For someone who professes to have no interest in any political party, you show an unusual interest in the politics of your colleagues!

Why were they so keen to tell us if it's none of our business? How do you propose I forget stuff that they've said and put out there publicly? It's funny, if anything.

 

[43066]

Duplicate post.

Why were they so keen to tell us if it's none of our business? How do you propose I forget stuff that they've said and put out there publicly? It's funny, if anything.

What on Earth are you talking about? Can you expand?

 

[the sniper]

What on Earth are talking about? Can you expand?

What do you want, names?

This is all I'll say:

Do you not think there's a bizarre conflict of interest involved in Guards who go from openly advertising how proud they were to support the Tories, reposting their propaganda on Facebook, one even being a member of the Conservative Party, to then being all for industrial action when they came for the Guards?

I just found it to be an odd/amusing situation. I like the blokes, but I don't know how I'd reconcile that if it were me, though I was very glad they supported the industrial action! But it's precisely why I wouldn't actively advocate/preach for any political party, though particularly the Tories as rail staff, as how can you trust them, or any political party, that much to think they won't actively act against you?

We as staff have done well out of the Tories, but it's not like that was intended, it was an accident. Our pay was never intended to be inflated like it has been under privatisation, it was never anticipated our T&Cs (for 'new entrants' post BR) would be protected in the long term. We've done well out of a botched system. I'm one of those who points out to people what we've gained from Privatisation. Nationalisation makes sense, but more for the public than us. I don't disagree regarding the Unions positions, but their thinking is at least theoretically for 'the greater good', even if it does come with its own risks, which I believe they think they'll be able to control.

 

[Bald Rick]

To be fair, it’s also not as if either union has threatened strike action over pay for some years (contrast with nurses, doctors and airline pilots) so the “greedy overpaid railstaff” trope is inaccurate.

Umm..

ScotRail staff to hold strike ballot over no pay rise

The Rail Maritime and Transport union announced a vote today after being told there would be no increase today

www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com

A letter issued by the union stated: “Negotiations have taken place with the company to discuss the matter of your pay rise.
"Unfortunately the latest talks have proved to be fruitless and your union has been advised that the extension of emergency measures agreement until January 2021 implies that you will not receive a pay rise in 2020.
"Your national executive committee has considered the matter further and it has declared that a dispute situation now exists between our organisations.
"Necessary preparations for a ballot for industrial action are being made.”


The RMT urged members to vote in favour of both strike action and action short of a strike.

There’s still an unpleasant undercurrent in some railway messrooms, along the lines that only certain political opinions are acceptable. That attitude belongs in the 1970s, along with the disgustingly racist and homophobic views I’ve heard expressed, usually by the self proclaimed messroom Union bores, who profess to hate us Tories.

Very recently I heard of a traincrew depot in the north of England where the local reps screen applications to join that depot, and screen out anyone without an English sounding name. I don’t quite believe it, not least that a union would be in any way involved in recruitment or transfers. But, it was told to me by someone of detailed working knowledge of that depot, and of impeachable character. So something must be going on.

 

[mpthomson]

As long as train drivers are getting up at 01.00 to go to work they are working class in my book. I’ll never get my head around members of ASLEF voting for the tories.

Doctors also do that, do they count as working class too?

 

[Robertj21a]

The rail unions are there to serve the best interests of their members. Public opinion doesn’t come into it. It’s a shame the British public seem to embrace a “race to the bottom”.

To be fair, it’s also not as if either union has threatened strike action over pay for some years (contrast with nurses, doctors and airline pilots) so the “greedy overpaid railstaff” trope is inaccurate.



Presumably, as politically active individuals, they’re well aware of said “conflict of interests” and have reconciled it in their own minds. And, with all due respect, what business is it of yours which political parties your colleagues might support? For someone who professes to have no interest in any political party, you show an unusual interest in the politics of your colleagues!

There’s still an unpleasant undercurrent in some railway messrooms, along the lines that only certain political opinions are acceptable. That attitude belongs in the 1970s, along with the disgustingly racist and homophobic views I’ve heard expressed, usually by the self proclaimed messroom Union bores, who profess to hate us Tories.​

Of course being a Tory has nothing to do with those attitudes, but many of the union dinosaurs can barely read words of more than one syllable, let alone understand politics, so their political views boil down to the binary position of “Tory bad” “Labour good” without any understanding of what either party stands for.

People like that occupy binary positions. They cannot critically analyse their own political views, let alone interpret mine. Asking why they have any particular view at all is as futile (and about as interesting) as asking a moth why it flies towards a flame.

What I find most ironic, and something that exposes their stupidity, is the lunacy of both unions wanting to renationalise the railway which is a far better example of Turkeys voting for Christmas than your Tory guard colleagues!

Well said.

 

[Horizon22]

The rail unions are there to serve the best interests of their members. Public opinion doesn’t come into it. It’s a shame the British public seem to embrace a “race to the bottom”.

To be fair, it’s also not as if either union has threatened strike action over pay for some years (contrast with nurses, doctors and airline pilots) so the “greedy overpaid railstaff” trope is inaccurate.

Because it's never got that far as TOCs are petrified of strikes and a railway shutdown - remember how much of a disaster it was when Southern went that way in 2017 (albeit not pay related) from which their (and perhaps even the railways' PR) has not yet fully recovered. So above inflation pay rises are given in the background negotiations. RMT/ASLEF have come to accept this as the norm. I just think people in the railway - and I am one - need to take stock and realise how good they've got it.

Public opinion does come in to it when those same members of the public are interacting with front line colleagues on a daily basis.

 

[the sniper]

Well said.

The bit you've emboldened, have you ever been in a messroom or a branch meeting? Does that match your experiences?

It's an interesting observation. One that is his own.

 

[43066]

The bit you've emboldened, have you ever been in a messroom or a branch meeting? Does that match your experiences?

It's an interesting observation. One that is his own.

It’s not like that everywhere - and actually I’ve gone from a rubbish branch to a really good one and can absolutely see the benefits and how a union can be a force for good. It’s a shame unions get such a hard time in the public eye.

But lets not pretend none of us have come across some pretty dyed in the wool attitudes: resentment of “boil in the bag” drivers; wanting jobs for the boys; the view that becoming a train driver is a right of passage that you should have to “work up to” from other grades. To put it another way, at my old depot, one of the LDRs (they changed every six months!) hated driving trains with a pride livery and the depot equalities rep made a joke out of the fact that he was openly racist.

Of course that doesn’t reflect the union’s attitude generally (or that of most members!) but the fact people like that are active in the union makes a complete mockery of what it’s supposed to stand for. Yes we all need to improve it by attending branch etc but when attitudes like anyone who doesn’t vote labour is a “Turkey voting for Christmas” are openly expressed it doesn’t exactly make for a welcoming environment...

 

[Efini92]

ASLEF is about one thing and one thing only. Drivers and how much money they can get for them.

They should not be called a union, a better description would be conservative club.

They are a drivers union so it’s fairly logical that they will look after drivers.

 

[43066]

Umm..

ScotRail staff to hold strike ballot over no pay rise

The Rail Maritime and Transport union announced a vote today after being told there would be no increase today

www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com

Very recently I heard of a traincrew depot in the north of England where the local reps screen applications to join that depot, and screen out anyone without an English sounding name. I don’t quite believe it, not least that a union would be in any way involved in recruitment or transfers. But, it was told to me by someone of detailed working knowledge of that depot, and of impeachable character. So something must be going on.

Fair point re. the the Scotrail ballot. Although, I’ll maintain that kind of thing doesn’t happen anything like as often as the general public thinks it does.

Re. the latter point (and assuming you meant to say your source is of “unimpeachable” character ). I’d hope that equalities legislation and the involvement of HR in the recruitment process would prevent that kind of thing, but it’s not entirely beyond the realms of possibility.

 

[Bald Rick]

Fair point re. the the Scotrail ballot. Although, I’ll maintain that kind of thing doesn’t happen anything like as often as the general public thinks it does.

Re. the latter point (and assuming you meant to say your source is of “unimpeachable” character ). I’d hope that equalities legislation and the involvement of HR in the recruitment process would prevent that kind of thing, but it’s not entirely beyond the realms of possibility.

Well he’s unimpeachable on some things

Your previous post is excellent by the way.

I can’t stress how important and influential a good union rep / branch is. I’ve known a few.

Unfortunately, i’ve known rather more poor union reps, almost all of whom were in it for themselves, often because they felt themselves ‘untouchable’.

 

[ST]

Umm..

ScotRail staff to hold strike ballot over no pay rise

The Rail Maritime and Transport union announced a vote today after being told there would be no increase today

www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com

Very recently I heard of a traincrew depot in the north of England where the local reps screen applications to join that depot, and screen out anyone without an English sounding name. I don’t quite believe it, not least that a union would be in any way involved in recruitment or transfers. But, it was told to me by someone of detailed working knowledge of that depot, and of impeachable character. So something must be going on.

Absolutely disgusting if true. Probably the same idiots who would not want any Women coming in either! These people need reporting (and I hope they were?) and made an example of.