DLR B23 Stock (CAF Inneo)

[Snow1964]

The papers for next weeks TfL Board meeting are now published.

There is a reference to new DLR stock page 14 of Commissioners report (Pack page 50) It just says working with suppliers for firm delivery schedule of new trains this year, and this will be presented to Programmes and Investment Committee meeting in March

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/board-20250205-agenda-papers.pdf

 

[simple simon]

Certainly yes, buying new trains and expecting them to fully integrate with an existing computerised signalling system is looking far more challenging than applied to a non-computerised signalling system.

But is worked with other DLR trains, so it would seem reasonable that everyone had expected similar results with these trains.

 

[Thirteen]

Certainly yes, buying new trains and expecting them to fully integrate with an existing computerised signalling system is looking far more challenging than applied to a non-computerised signalling system.

But is worked with other DLR trains, so it would seem reasonable that everyone had expected similar results with these trains.

Not really, the B07s and B09s were built by Bombardier, the B23s are built by CAF

 

[DanNCL]

Not really, the B07s and B09s were built by Bombardier, the B23s are built by CAF

CAF have built trains to operate on SelTrac automated signalling before for other cities. They should be familiar with it.

 

[OneTrackMinded]

New RAIL article on the B23s, read here: https://www.railmagazine.com/news/2...-railway-s-delayed-new-trains-nears-1-billion

 

[ScotGG]

That's telling us what TfL reports stated many months ago. A shame they havn't done any digging for new info

 

[simple simon]

Not really, the B07s and B09s were built by Bombardier, the B23s are built by CAF

In theory that should not matter, but it could be that the issue here is nothing more than the various train builders using different electric components and software packages which - whilst nominally fully compatible - react slightly differently.

My comments are worded in a way that hopes to avoid blame or otherwise suggesting that one train builder builds *better* trains than another. I would rather not see a legal dispute!

 

[Kay_M]

New RAIL article on the B23s, read here: https://www.railmagazine.com/news/2...-railway-s-delayed-new-trains-nears-1-billion
View attachment 173644

Oh dear. That's not good.

I do wonder if it will be a case when they come into service if it will be a slow gradual entry or multiple coming in at once to possibly speed things up to oust the B90/92/2K stock.

 

[alholmes]

I do wonder if it will be a case when they come into service if it will be a slow gradual entry or multiple coming in at once to possibly speed things up to oust the B90/92/2K stock.

I suspect slow and gradual, as there won’t be the space to stable loads of them on the network while the others are still in service. It’ll probably get to the stage whereby a new one can only be deliver as and when each old one is removed from scrap, and then there’ll need to be a few test / commissioning runs of each new train before entry to service.

 

[JCO1406]

Doesn't look like they've got any more testing going on for a while

 

[simple simon]

At first possibly on just one route, eg: Stratford - Canary Wharf

 

[Kay_M]

I suspect slow and gradual, as there won’t be the space to stable loads of them on the network while the others are still in service. It’ll probably get to the stage whereby a new one can only be deliver as and when each old one is removed from scrap, and then there’ll need to be a few test / commissioning runs of each new train before entry to service.

I see. Good point

 

[DGP]

At first possibly on just one route, eg: Stratford - Canary Wharf

I suspect that would be too high a profile route with significant disruption in the event of a failure. I've suggested Beckton to Stratford International given that it passes Beckton Depot, has lower usage (I think!) and is covered by other services.

 

[Kay_M]

I suspect that would be too high a profile route with significant disruption in the event of a failure. I've suggested Beckton to Stratford International given that it passes Beckton Depot, has lower usage (I think!) and is covered by other services.

Interesting you say that because wasn't the Bank to Lewisham branch the first to receive the 3-cars when they wanted to bring on more capacity and that's a high profile route

 

[DGP]

Interesting you say that because wasn't the Bank to Lewisham branch the first to receive the 3-cars when they wanted to bring on more capacity and that's a high profile route

Absolutely true but in terms of step-change then just adding an extra car to an existing train really doesn't compare to introducing a whole new train for a different manufacture that interacts differently (apparently) with the signalling system and has already been subject of multiple delays costing multi-million pounds. If I were anywhere near this project (and I'm really thankful that I'm not!) then I'd want to soft-launch these trains to make sure everything worked correctly before introducing them onto the "main" lines.

 

[Kay_M]

Absolutely true but in terms of step-change then just adding an extra car to an existing train really doesn't compare to introducing a whole new train for a different manufacture that interacts differently (apparently) with the signalling system and has already been subject of multiple delays costing multi-million pounds. If I were anywhere near this project (and I'm really thankful that I'm not!) then I'd want to soft-launch these trains to make sure everything worked correctly before introducing them onto the "main" lines.

True and of course potentially keeping it on the Beckton line can also mean if there's issues they can put it back in the depot quickly.

 

[Zeremony]

I suspect that would be too high a profile route with significant disruption in the event of a failure. I've suggested Beckton to Stratford International given that it passes Beckton Depot, has lower usage (I think!) and is covered by other services.

The Beckton to Canning Town trains would probably be an even better service for a soft launch.

 

[simple simon]

The Beckton to Canning Town trains would probably be an even better service for a soft launch.

I suspect that would be too high a profile route with significant disruption in the event of a failure. I've suggested Beckton to Stratford International given that it passes Beckton Depot, has lower usage (I think!) and is covered by other services.

This is the same service - whilst in theory trains travel from Beckton to Stratford International they rarely seem to do so - Instead they reverse at Canning Town (at one time it was at West Ham).

I *think* this is because of a shortage of rolling stock - so once enough of the enw trains have started running it will be possible to restore the full service again

 

[Taunton]

I see the non-introduction of the new trains is now being blamed on the bankruptcy of the first contractor for the depot extension

MSN

 

[Geogregor]

I see the non-introduction of the new trains is now being blamed on the bankruptcy of the first contractor for the depot extension

MSN

The title of the article is obviously very Torygraph

 

[Taunton]

Well notwithstanding the title and working in comments about the Mayor, there are straightforward comments:

Transport for London (TfL), chaired by the London Mayor, blamed “our main contractor to build the required depot going into administration” last year.

Quite apart from being a year out there (Buckingham went under in August 2023), one would very much hope that TfL required a Completion (or Performance) Bond on the project, a form of construction industry insurance where if the original contractor goes under it bridges the cost gap to getting another contractor in to finish the works.

 

[JCO1406]

There’s a whole load of weekend closures coming up in March. I assume this will probably be further testing of the B23s, along with depot works

 

[Taunton]

Was a new contractor appointed for the depot works after Buckingham went under? When was this? What was their new completion date?

 

[Snow1964]

The TfL Board programmes and Investment Committee papers for next weeks meeting are now available. The new DLR stock is discussed as agenda item 10 (with some additional info not in public part 2)

Per section 4.2, aim is to get trains into service as soon as possible, and says by end of 2025. Also says 40 trains now built

Was a new contractor appointed for the depot works after Buckingham went under? When was this? What was their new completion date?

There is update on the works too, since Buckingham group went into administration 17 months ago. Section 4.3 (c) says Balfour Beatty Rail Ltd now building Beckton Southern sidings (and came into operation Christmas 2024)

Section 4.4 mentions now mobilised the work to sort the legacy signalling problems (which led to speed restrictions last year)

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/pic-20250305-progammes-and-investment-committee.pdf

 

[StratfordP]

further testing seen today with the B23 stock going through Langdon Park and Poplar

 

[7522]

Are there any more updates for the B23? It's really hard to find any info about what's going on, unless the quiet means no more progress.

 

[Taunton]

There are substantial closures currently every weekend. Although done in different sections on different weekends, it makes it impossible to do any through journey. No idea is given on what is being done - the previous DLR concessionaire had in their contract they could only close each major branch for one weekend per year, but that has gone now. Whether it's for regular maintenance or new train requirements is not indicated.

 

[OneTrackMinded]

Personally I don't think these trains will be in service until 2026

 

[Thirteen]

Personally I don't think these trains will be in service until 2026

I would guess earlier, there is nothing wrong with the actual trains themselves.

 

[Taunton]

Where are the new trains? They don't appear to be in the UK. And has production now been completed? If so it's always an issue getting commissioning issues attended to if the production line team has been dispersed. If nothing else, there's the risk of them running out of warranty before they are first used.