Do you notice how a Driver drives?

[Bletchleyite]

Northern like to ‘thrash’ their 158s about a lot too I’ve noticed, as opposed to gently going up through the notches upon acceleration.

One thing I have noticed is that on Sprinter type DMUs slow notching up is more common these days, whereas in the 90s drivers would get the buzz-buzz and immediately go to full power.

 

[driver9000]

Motor or transmission hunting really grates on me. I'm never sure if that is the driver or a fault with the train.

Generally not within the Drivers control.

 

[O L Leigh]

I certainly noticed it when I was travelling on the Highland Sleeper. I’m probably doing them a disservice, but it did seem as though the GBRf drivers were taking full advantage of not having a load of boxes behind them and driving the thing flat out forgetting that the train was full of people trying to sleep. I quickly decided that, if I wasn’t going to sleep, I might as well track our progress and discovered that we were 15 minutes early at every stop along the West Coast. Even on the Highland section things weren’t much better, something which the stewards agreed with me about on the homeward leg.

For myself, I certainly drive differently now that I’m no longer doing commuter services. The style of driving I used there is no longer needed now that I’m on inter-regional routes, so I do now try to drive more smoothly than before. I always felt right from their introduction that the IC225 sets gave a really good quality experience in that they started away so smoothly that you might not even notice unless you looked out the window. It’s not always possible with modern traction to completely replicate, but I do try to get away as smoothly as I can without any harsh acceleration and brake equally smoothly. It often has me wondering what some colleagues are aspiring towards, especially when I see IETs shooting out of places like Reading like the driver’s hair is on fire.

As well as smoothness around stations, a driver should be able to be smooth between them too. You can usually tell if you’re following another train and, using route knowledge, have a pretty good guess at what it is and, therefore, how fast it’s going and when and where it might stop. Using this knowledge a driver can moderate the train speed such that unscheduled stops at red signals can be reduced. Certainly there’s no point racing away from one red signal if you know that the next one is also likely to be red. As well as giving the passengers a smoother ride and reducing the perception of any delay, it can help to safeguard the driver’s record, as you can’t SPAD a signal that isn’t red.

 

[Stigy]

One thing I have noticed is that on Sprinter type DMUs slow notching up is more common these days, whereas in the 90s drivers would get the buzz-buzz and immediately go to full power.

That’s generally how we’re taught to drive them these days (not just on sprinters, but other DMUs too).

Sometimes I’m straight to notch 7 depending on how much the unit has p*ssed me off so far. A lot of our trains don’t have much below notch 5 anyway and it becomes tiresome (16x mainly).

 

[6Gman]

Using the Wolf + Mk IIIs from Manchester a few days ago I noticed a couple of cases of jolting (minor but noticeable) when propelling which I don't recall from the days when they were in regular service. Perhaps a result of not driving them as regularly? (Though it might also have been a maintenance matter or the way the rake was set up maybe.)

 

[QueensCurve]

On a plane recently a passenger commented that a good pilot will not stop before takeoff. I've no idea if this was a fair comment but got me thinking does the average Joe notice if the train is being driven in a markedly different manner signal checks aside?

A good pilot will never take off without clearance.

Sometimes, when another aircraft is still on the runway, an aircraft will be cleared to 'Line up and wait Runway xx". Only when the first aircraft has left the runway (taken off or vacated to a taxiway) will the take off clearance be given. For a pilot to start the take off run without clearance would be extremely dangerous and a career limiting move.

When the take off clearance is given before the aircraft enters the runway the take off run will start without having to stop.

The other situation where an aircraft will stop after entering the runway is a short field take off in which the aircraft will be held on the brakes while the engines are spooled up to full power, which can take several seconds.

 

[computerSaysNo]

Sometimes I’m straight to notch 7 depending on how much the unit has p*ssed me off so far. A lot of our trains don’t have much below notch 5 anyway and it becomes tiresome (16x mainly).

Isn't that the equivalent of putting your foot as hard as you can onto the accelerator before even starting to come off the clutch though?
I.e. it overrevs the engine.

Motor or transmission hunting really grates on me. I'm never sure if that is the driver or a fault with the train.

When I was driving a road vehicle with Voith transmission it annoyed me that you couldn't lock it into a certain gear or otherwise force it to stay in the gear it's in. For example when going down a hill I don't want it to change into the highest gear possible because then I need to use the brake/retarder to keep my speed down (and the retarder on those vehicles was very harsh), instead of just using engine braking.

 

[mikeb42]

...what some colleagues are aspiring towards, especially when I see IETs shooting out of places like Reading like the driver’s hair is on fire.

Might not be their intention - but the effect may be to keep some customers a little bit happier.

As a long-suffering GWR customer (rather than enthusiast), I appreciate those drivers able to combine smoothness with accelerating and braking IETs as hard as possible. Hundreds of journeys tell me they are more likely to be on time, or at least less late. Yes, anecdote doesn't equal data, but...

When already late, it is rubbing salt in the wound to meander out of Reading or Paddington like time is an illusion, when from the same platform in the apparently same conditions leaving on a similarly green signal another driver will accelerate like it's a hire car.

There was recently a phase where almost nightly for many weeks, Paddington would come to a halt for an extended period until 23:00 as staff shortages meant the only available signal staff had to have a break. Then, the same trains would leave in the same order every night in rapid succession from 23:00, some having been delayed by 40+ minutes.

Travelling on the same train every night through this in apparently very similar conditions (bone dry, clear, not cold, not during leaf fall season etc) I repeatedly noted that the drivers who gave it full welly and then braked hard made up loads of time whereas there was seemingly one in particular who crept in and out of every station at a tedious pace and made up almost no time on multiple occasions. This was with nothing in front of us, same platforms, same moving over to the slow lines closer to Reading etc (you don't need to be an enthusiast to understand traksy) and consistent over 100+ mile journeys on different units each night. The whole experience was urgent versus lethargic.

Ok, there are 1,001 variables which we punters are oblivious to which might explain it all. All of this must have been within the reams of rules and limits you have to abide by though, surely? And yes, the reason why it's possible to make up 20 minutes at all is because of all the slack in the timings but caning it seemed to make a big difference.

One of the main redeeming features of these units is that they go like stink. Using it, within the tightly regulated realms of safety, appears to the clueless punter to frequently help with the vitally important goal of punctuality, at least on that route.

 

[ASharpe]

Back to planes again. Another reason to stop would be on a large twin engined jet. If one of the engines spools up faster than the other( or worse and there is a failure) there would be significant yaw that would take the plane off the runway.

At that stage of the flight there is a transfer of effectiveness between the tiller and the rudder so the pilot would have a tough job.

Slightly less of an issue on 4 engine jets or something like an MD-80 with them at the back.

 

[Mattyblob]

Personally I found every time I learnt to drive something new I became an immediate backseat driver and felt uncomfortable as a passenger; I outright refuse to get on a motorcycle as pillion, my other half seemingly wants to kill me every time she's behind the wheel so I prefer to drive, and buses seem to be where I'm most judgemental.

In contrast, since learning to drive tube stock and then mainline trains I'm able to fully relax and switch off on either, unless something particularly unusual is happening - on the Bakerloo it becomes apparent quickly if you're being driven by one of the two "snails pace" drivers on the line as the pace of the journey is so different, and on the mainline I tend to only take notice when there's a heavier brake application compared to the rest of the journey (a misjudged braking point or WSP activity etc).

In training I once front-ended with a driver who threw the handle into brake step 3 just before coming to a stand for seemingly no reason other than to chuck around passengers preparing to alight. That kind of thing irks me.

 

[O L Leigh]

@mikeb42 OK yes, that’s a good example of a time when it’s appropriate to use all the power. But surely that can’t be necessary every day. The fact that thrashing an IET can make back delay shows just how you don’t really need to be doing that when everything is running as it ought.

 

[driver9000]

Using the Wolf + Mk IIIs from Manchester a few days ago I noticed a couple of cases of jolting (minor but noticeable) when propelling which I don't recall from the days when they were in regular service. Perhaps a result of not driving them as regularly? (Though it might also have been a maintenance matter or the way the rake was set up maybe.)

I remember occasional jolting when the loco was propelling on the West Coast, I remember being told it was due to the TDM signal dropping.

 

[Reliablebeam]

I've noticed on GWR there is quite a difference between how the 387's are driven on 'fast' routes versus local stopping services. On local services there is often a bit of a crawl to a halt, even if the service is late running - on fast services the departure out of Didcot can be very impressive. In turn, I've found Southern electrostars driven a bit more vigorously. On the 80x's, I've found one can often feel the 'delay' as the power handle is stepped up - I think I may have read on here this is the recommended technique (?) to avoid excess acceleration?

I was impressed recently how smooth the 67 hauled 'Gerallt' service I took in north Wales was, I was expecting something a lot 'joltier'

No negative comment on drivers intended!!

 

[irish_rail]

I try to drive the IETs quick but smoothly (ie slowish application of power but brake relatively hard but in a smooth consistent way). Gives a ride more like the old HSTs, as opposed to some drivers who are constantly on and off the power handle and give a very jerky and in my view unsatisfying ride.
However, if late and on my train home, I will sometimes just drive it like I stole it and giving a satisfying ride is of less importance.

Also regarding a comment upthread on the sleepers and power application, one factor that is of importance is how the engine is coupled to the stock. If the engine is "loosely" coupled then a smooth pull away from a stand is very very difficult and the driver can't be blamed too much for that. Also a dead 57 on the rear makes a smooth departure much more difficult.

 

[Purple Train]

I only really notice a difference when drivers come into my local station in the down direction (there's fairly little opportunity to observe the approach in the up direction unless waiting for a train). Some slow to about 20mph by the platform ramp and crawl to a halt (of an 8-coach platform on a line with fairly closely-spaced stops - every three or four minutes in the up direction, becoming gradually more spaced out after the station in question), while some will enter at 30-ish. There seems to be much less variation in up trains though, to me - they generally approach at a slower speed (20-ish) - though I remember one memorable occasion where there was heavy disruption and all down trains were cancelled and most of the up trains were 15+ minutes late, and I was particularly thankful that I had regained the ability I lost during the pandemic of having an acute sense of "railway balance". And a hand grab next to me.

 

[Ken H]

I remember occasional jolting when the loco was propelling on the West Coast, I remember being told it was due to the TDM signal dropping.

Cl 90 had buckeyes. 86 & 87 had screw couplings. Were cl90 less jolty when propelling?

 

[Starmill]

My experience is that the overwhelming majority of mainline train drivers are very slick at smooth stops. Obviously sometimes this is more of a challenge, especially in wet weather or with autumn leaves, and in the event of an emergency stop everything goes on the floor (literally sometimes). But in general a station stop is a calm and considered thing, so much so that I don't really notice them at all.

The point at which you really do notice this is if you alight from e.g. the Jubilee or Victoria lines, or a tram, and board a heavy rail train. You might also notice it if you travel on the continent on the same day as in Great Britain.

 

[Pinza-C55]

I did my route learning (as a guard) from Kings Cross to York in 1985 and the HST driver invited me into the cab. I thought he was going to be playing around with the controls but once we passed Finsbury Park he just put her on full power , lit a cigarette and starting chatting.

 

[Stigy]

Isn't that the equivalent of putting your foot as hard as you can onto the accelerator before even starting to come off the clutch though?
I.e. it overrevs the engine.

It’s not very economical or good for wear and tear, hence why we’re taught to go through the notches gradually. I wouldn’t exactly equate it to as you describe though, as a train is essentially an automatic (or CVT I guess is more appropriate). If anything it’s like flooring it in an auto car after having come off the brake.

 

[computerSaysNo]

It’s not very economical or good for wear and tear, hence why we’re taught to go through the notches gradually. I wouldn’t exactly equate it to as you describe though, as a train is essentially an automatic (or CVT I guess is more appropriate). If anything it’s like flooring it in an auto car after having come off the brake.

Yes once the fluid torque converter has engaged.
When you first take power (e.g. notch 0 straight to notch 3) the engine revs up fairly high as it's under no load as the torque converter takes a few seconds to engage, you get no tractive effort at that stage, then as the torque converter comes in the revs settle and you start getting tractive effort.
If the engine is already in any notch of power and has settled then the torque converter or direct drive will already be fully engaged so skipping many notches (e.g. notch 3 straight to notch 7) should be absolutely fine. That's my understanding for 15x and 165/166, is that incorrect?
I know for classes 168/170/171 there's a delay to the initial increase in engine speed as the torque converter is engaged before the engine revs so you don't get the initial high peak of rpm before it settles. And I know 172 is mechanical transmission but I'm not sure how that works in terms of clutch control from a standing start.

 

[Stigy]

Yes once the fluid torque converter has engaged.
When you first take power (e.g. notch 0 straight to notch 3) the engine revs up fairly high as it's under no load as the torque converter takes a few seconds to engage, you get no tractive effort at that stage, then as the torque converter comes in the revs settle and you start getting tractive effort.
If the engine is already in any notch of power and has settled then the torque converter or direct drive will already be fully engaged so skipping many notches (e.g. notch 3 straight to notch 7) should be absolutely fine. That's my understanding for 15x and 165/166, is that incorrect?
I know for classes 168/170/171 there's a delay to the initial increase in engine speed as the torque converter is engaged before the engine revs so you don't get the initial high peak of rpm before it settles. And I know 172 is mechanical transmission but I'm not sure how that works in terms of clutch control from a standing start.

On 16x there’s a delay in power delivery, as with 15x, although 15x have far more lower down torque. As far as I’m aware, if you notch up straight to 7 in a 16x, the revs are restricted initially to notch 5 (only for a few seconds). Not sure if that’s what you’re alluding to?

 

[Capvermell]

On my now ultra slow line from London Victoria to Horsham via Epsom and Dorking with its timetable with grossly excessive time allowances for the journey between each stop I really notice the difference between drivers who like to hammer the Electrostars between each stop at maximum speed probably because they are both fast drivers and/or like to take a little rest at each stop (until the timetable catches up) also causing us to have to run for the train if we are close to departure time (as you are never sure they will wait until 30 seconds before stated departure time before closing the doors) and those drivers who drive at a much more moderate speed (saving braking and suspension wear and tear and electricity) and who only open the doors at each station within a few seconds of the time they are meant to close them again, no earlier than 30 seconds before departure.

I find the difference in driving styles so extreme on my line (although the absurdly time padded timetable with a journey time extension of up to 60% over the last 30 years probably also promotes those large variations) that I am really surprised the drivers who hammer the trains, cause maximum wear and tear and use far more electricity in the process are not pulled up on their more aggressive, more electricity consuming and more train wear inducing driving style.

Having said that there are some drivers (who I often wonder may have perhaps either had a one under or live in permanent fear of one) who take things to the other extreme and literally appear to crawl along the length of each platform at painfully slow speeds of 5mph to 10mph although they may be offsetting this stopping style in each station platform by driving faster in between the stops (which would of course again consume more electricity than a more measure speeds with less acceleration and deceleration).

 

[Andrew*Debbie]

as a train is essentially an automatic (or CVT I guess is more appropriate).

The Voith T211 transmission used in 15x, 175 and elsewhere is 2-speed automatic with a torque converter in 1st gear. That is not too different to a 1950's American car, at least in 1st.

 

[hexagon789]

And I know 172 is mechanical transmission but I'm not sure how that works in terms of clutch control from a standing start.

They have a torque converter for starting, then it goes through a six-stage mechanical gearbox, but the top gear isn't used.

 

[computerSaysNo]

They have a torque converter for starting

Ah, thought it would be something like that.

then it goes through a six-stage mechanical gearbox

Must be quite a high-revving engine then, given they can go up to 100mph?

but the top gear isn't used

Oh. Any particular reason? Seems a bit of a waste of money and weight to have bought it and then not use it.

 

[hexagon789]

Ah, thought it would be something like that.

Seems to be that (dependant on throttle setting), the torque converter operates up to ~15mph, then into first gear

Must be quite a high-revving engine then, given they can go up to 100mph?

1800rpm, which is lower than some hydraulic DMUs, which go to 2100/2350rpm.

Oh. Any particular reason? Seems a bit of a waste of money and weight to have bought it and then not use it.

I read that somewhere they don't use the top gear.

But I decided to read in more detail.

On reading the spec I found out that the transmission ZF 5HP902R, is a five-speed gearbox with torque converter and integrated braking retarder. The first digit in ZF transmission description codes is the number of gears, the R on the end means Retarder fitted.

So, either the design has more gears but for this application the sixth is locked out OR "six-speed" includes the torque converter as a "speed" and there is no sixth gear.

 

[richw]

I’ve only really noticed once, a particularly bad acceleration on a train. Very harsh and aggressive driving with heavy braking. The first class host even made a comment about it

 

[Route115?]

It was interesting that when travelling on the Zurich S-bahn I often found myself running down stairs as the train came to a stop as I was used to the much more defensive style of driving we see in the UK and was not expecting the train to stop as fast as it did.

I have noticed how driving has changed over the years. When I was young (40 years ago) I remember a driver speeding over Harrow North Jn (and immediately being stopped by the next signal). With modern training this doesn't happen now (at least not when I have been on a train).

It would be interesting to resurrect the thread during the leaf fall season as I suspect that is when any changes in driving style would be most noticeable.

 

[niggill617@gma]

It was interesting that when travelling on the Zurich S-bahn I often found myself running down stairs as the train came to a stop as I was used to the much more defensive style of driving we see in the UK and was not expecting the train to stop as fast as it did.

I have noticed how driving has changed over the years. When I was young (40 years ago) I remember a driver speeding over Harrow North Jn (and immediately being stopped by the next signal). With modern training this doesn't happen now (at least not when I have been on a train).

It would be interesting to resurrect the thread during the leaf fall season as I suspect that is when any changes in driving style would be most noticeable.

The changes in driving style during leaf fall, are illustrated within the attachment, excerpt from Rail Engineer. I think some drivers brake the same all year round, easy and light. I remember driving between Reading and Bristol TM, the timings being generous, no need to brake hard operationally. The timings via Westbury are tighter, so harder braking is operationally tempting.

 

[bramling]

My experience is that the overwhelming majority of mainline train drivers are very slick at smooth stops. Obviously sometimes this is more of a challenge, especially in wet weather or with autumn leaves, and in the event of an emergency stop everything goes on the floor (literally sometimes). But in general a station stop is a calm and considered thing, so much so that I don't really notice them at all.

The point at which you really do notice this is if you alight from e.g. the Jubilee or Victoria lines, or a tram, and board a heavy rail train. You might also notice it if you travel on the continent on the same day as in Great Britain.

LU drivers have got quite poor at smooth stops over the last decade or two, indeed the quality of manual driving on LU is nowadays pretty poor full stop, though there are still some very good ones still around it's starting to become very much the minority.

It probably doesn't help that some of the ATO systems don't drive the train particularly well, and to some extent encourage bad habits. If you want to drive on one of the Seltrac lines for example (Jubilee, Northern & sub-surface) the manual driving is never going to be particularly smooth simply because of the sheer number of different speed changes the driver has to react to, and not always with the driver having been given enough advance notice. Meanwhile the Piccadilly Line seems to have forgotten how to drive trains altogether, which is a shame as at one time they were pretty good on there, the problem seems to be a crisis of confidence due to the number of SPADs.