Do you think that the UK switching to electric vehicles is realistic?

[StKeverne1497]

Modern battery chemistries mean the 20-80% thing isn't an issue any more.

So how come I find it - or something very similar - written down on the EV web pages of every manufacturer I've looked at?

 

[reddragon]

So how come I find it - or something very similar - written down on the EV web pages of every manufacturer I've looked at?

It is a thing on older designed Lithium (NiMH etc ) batteries, narrower the range used the better. There's a chart on it showing 0-100% cycles of 500 and 30-70% cycles 7000 before degradation starts.

LFP (Lithium Iron Phosphate) batteries have no issues at all, go on forever so far, known as the million miles battery.

 

[tomuk]

It is a thing on older designed Lithium (NiMH etc ) batteries, narrower the range used the better. There's a chart on it showing 0-100% cycles of 500 and 30-70% cycles 7000 before degradation starts.

LFP (Lithium Iron Phosphate) batteries have no issues at all, go on forever so far, known as the million miles battery.

NiMH aren't lithium batteries.
LFP batteries have only been used in some recent post October 2021 Teslas

 

[david1212]

I think these numbers need checking. See my last paragraph

a car with a 77kwh battery has a WLTP range of 320 miles. (Specifically the VW ID4 Pro)

Scaling the battery to 50kwh gives it a range of 208 miles. It’s too early to say what the battery deterioration of VW EVs is, but assuming it is the same as Teslas, then it will reduce to around 90% after 100,000 miles minimum. Which means c190 miles range. Even allowing for the arbritary 25 miles contingency, that’s still 165 miles, which is rather more than you state.

But, of course, it’s hypothetical, as 70kwh+ batteries are going to become more and more common.

It will be interesting to look back on to this thread and similar ones on other forums in years to come to compare the real world battery reliability and deterioration against the spread of possibilities. Likewise capacity against weight, volume and inflation adjusted cost.

Tesla may be expecting only 10% capacity loss after 100,000 miles but you are looking at a premium product. For say ( relatively ) budget brands e.g. MG their priority has to be biased towards low coat rather than highest grade materials so the capacity loss from aging, the discharge level, number of charge / discharge cycles and rate of charging could be higher - time will tell.

The VAG 77kWh battery comes with volume, weight and cost penalties against ~50kWh. If capacity can be increased by 30% for the same volume, weight and relative cost then 65kWh could be typical.

I do not see a big reduction in energy use. Electric drives are already high efficiency / low loss with most enegry used to overcome friction and gravity. Lighting as LED uses a small amount and a car interior is a small volume to heat. For those with exclusive use of a charger pre-heating is likely to be available too.

While the WLTP range is intended to give a standardised comparison between vehicles how realistic is it to real world driving? For ICE cars the achieved mpg is often far less than that quoted.

For the WLTP range as an example look at the Vauxhall Mokka-e range calculator. The battery is 50kWh and headline range is 208 miles. However this is at 40mph. At 60mph it is 156 miles and at 70mph 127 miles. For each of those take off 25 miles reserve then charging to 80% and you have realistic ranges of 105 and 82 miles. Now work out for 25% capacity loss. The absolute ranges now become 156, 117 and 95 miles. With 25 miles reserve and charging to 80% the ranges are 105, 73.6 and just 56 miles. Only time will tell if pessimistic or realistic. Regardless for each case these are the numbers.

 

[reddragon]

LFP batteries have only been used in some recent post October 2021 Teslas

LPF batteries are fitted to half of current Tesla M3 & Ys, standard range MGs, most BYDs & most other Chinese made EVs and most commercials. The proportion is growing & as China dominates the EV market in particular in battery manufacturer that's what we get. CATL & BYD are moving to LFP.

Sorry mixed up names on other batteries so to help. : -

What Types Of Electric Car Battery Are There? | Lease Fetcher

Are all electric car batteries the same? If not, what EV battery types are there? We look at how the materials used to make EV batteries affect their properties

www.leasefetcher.co.uk

Lithium-ion​

Lithium-ion batteries are the most popular. Without going into too much detail, they discharge and recharge as the electrolyte carries positively charged lithium ions from the anode to the cathode, and vice versa. However, the materials used in the cathode can vary between lithium-ion batteries.

LFP, NMC, and NCA are three different sub-chemistries of Lithium-ion batteries. LFP uses Lithium-phosphate as cathode material; NMC uses Lithium, Manganese, and Cobalt; and NCA uses Nickel, Cobalt and Aluminium.

Benefits of Lithium-ion batteries:​

• Cheaper to produce than NMC and NCA batteries.
• Longer lifespan - deliver 2,500-3,000 full charge/discharge cycles compared to 1,000 for NMC batteries.
• Generate less heat during charging so it can sustain a higher rate of power longer into the charge curve, leading to faster charge without battery damage.
• Can be charged to 100% with little battery damage as it helps to calibrate the battery and provide more accurate range estimates - Model 3 owners with an LFP battery are advised to keep the charge limit set to 100%

Last year, Tesla actually offered its Model 3 customers in America a choice between an NCA or an LFP battery. The NCA battery was 117kg lighter and offered 10 miles more range, but had a much longer lead time. However, Tesla also recommends that the NCA battery variant is only charged to 90% of its capacity. In other words, if you plan to regularly use the full range, the LFP may still be the better option.

Nickel-metal hydride​

Nickel-metal hydride batteries (abbreviated to NiMH) are the only real alternative to lithium-ion batteries that is currently on the market, though they are usually found in hybrid electric vehicles (mostly Toyota) as opposed to pure electric vehicles.

The main reason for this is that the energy density of NiMH batteries is as much as 40% lower than lithium-ion batteries.

Benefits of Nickel-metal hydride batteries​

• Much cheaper to manufacture than lithium-ion batteries
• Car battery recycling is also much easier.
• NiMH batteries can also withstand much harsher weather conditions, whether that’s freezing winters or blazing hot summers.

Lithium-ion batteries are preferred over NiMH batteries, but in colder climates, NiMH are best, and they help to push down the currently higher cost of electric cars.

What next?​

So we’ve explored the main electric car battery types on the market right now, but what about the electric car batteries of the future? Let’s take a look at some of the more promising developments:

Solid-state batteries​

Solid-state batteries are widely touted to be the next big breakthrough in battery technology. These wouldn’t replace lithium-ion as such, but would use a solid rather than a liquid electrolyte.

When the technology is perfected, there are a number of benefits we can expect to see from solid state batteries.

Solid state batteries would be lighter and more compact than current batteries with a liquid electrolyte, which means the weight of the car could be reduced or the storage capacity increased.

Solid state batteries would also be more resistant to fire in the event that they are punctured or impacted, as they lack the flammable liquid electrolyte.

Maximum charging speeds would also be greatly improved, with a full recharge achieved in a little over 10 minutes. It’s also likely that they’ll have a much longer lifespan. Researchers at Harvard have already designed a lithium-metal solid-state battery that can be charged and discharged at least 10,000 times at a high current density.

Supercapacitors​

Supercapacitors are electric storage devices which can be recharged very quickly and release a large amount of power. They store energy electrostatically rather than chemically, like a battery.

They cannot yet compete with Lithium-ion batteries because they have a much smaller capacity to store energy. However, they have far superior lifespans.

Supercapacitors are already used as ancillary devices to store energy from regenerative braking and to provide the necessary boost during quick accelerations, particularly in motorsport.

 

[The Ham]

It will be interesting to look back on to this thread and similar ones on other forums in years to come to compare the real world battery reliability and deterioration against the spread of possibilities. Likewise capacity against weight, volume and inflation adjusted cost.

Tesla may be expecting only 10% capacity loss after 100,000 miles but you are looking at a premium product. For say ( relatively ) budget brands e.g. MG their priority has to be biased towards low coat rather than highest grade materials so the capacity loss from aging, the discharge level, number of charge / discharge cycles and rate of charging could be higher - time will tell.

The VAG 77kWh battery comes with volume, weight and cost penalties against ~50kWh. If capacity can be increased by 30% for the same volume, weight and relative cost then 65kWh could be typical.

I do not see a big reduction in energy use. Electric drives are already high efficiency / low loss with most enegry used to overcome friction and gravity. Lighting as LED uses a small amount and a car interior is a small volume to heat. For those with exclusive use of a charger pre-heating is likely to be available too.

While the WLTP range is intended to give a standardised comparison between vehicles how realistic is it to real world driving? For ICE cars the achieved mpg is often far less than that quoted.

For the WLTP range as an example look at the Vauxhall Mokka-e range calculator. The battery is 50kWh and headline range is 208 miles. However this is at 40mph. At 60mph it is 156 miles and at 70mph 127 miles. For each of those take off 25 miles reserve then charging to 80% and you have realistic ranges of 105 and 82 miles. Now work out for 25% capacity loss. The absolute ranges now become 156, 117 and 95 miles. With 25 miles reserve and charging to 80% the ranges are 105, 73.6 and just 56 miles. Only time will tell if pessimistic or realistic. Regardless for each case these are the numbers.

How long into the future is our likely that a battery would reach 25% losses?

5 years, then yes you've got a problem, 10 years, then it might be an issue (however with warranties for 7+ years protecting our going below 20%, then it's still likely to be a fairly low risk), 15 years, probably not an issue given that a lot of cars of that age are likely to be doing limited milage anyway (even averaging 6,000 miles a year it'll have clocked up 90,000 miles and unlikely to be a car doing significant milage going forwards anyway, it is does the UK average of 7,000 per year then that's over 100,000 miles).

There's plenty of people for whom 56 miles would be plenty for their day to day use and still only need to charge every few days.

For example a car only used for going to/from work which does 8,000 miles a year is only doing 35 miles a day (based on 233 working days). Now whilst most cars would be used for other trips very few trips done in the UK are over 50 miles, so even up to that limit would be perfectly acceptable.

If you allowed 1,500 miles a year for other trips (say, weekend travel - which only averages about 15 miles for each weekend day), then the daily travel distance then falls to 28 miles and so would be perfectly acceptable (especially given that 56 mile limit allows for a 25 mile buffer, which is absolute and so if you edged into it by a mile or two it's not an issue) to charge every other day.

Now many such cars would likely be a second or even a third car and so longer trips are likely to be done in the other car. Likewise 8,000 miles a year is likely to be higher than average.

As such whilst they are unlikely to be attractive to everyone, they are likely to still be able to be sold to someone (much in the same way as cars which have done 150,000 miles).

Even if such cars had a 30 mile range due to battery issues they will still hold some value.

However with the rise of battery repair rather than replacement, allowing parts of batteries to be replaced rather than the whole lot, costing (say) £1,500 rather than £5,000 to get you back to 90-95% rather than 100% and at long as it keeps you above (say) 85% for 4 years then for most it'll be worth the cost (especially given a 12 year old ICE car could well cost you that in parts over that time anyway).

 

[GLC]

I do not see a big reduction in energy use. Electric drives are already high efficiency / low loss with most enegry used to overcome friction and gravity. Lighting as LED uses a small amount and a car interior is a small volume to heat. For those with exclusive use of a charger pre-heating is likely to be available too.

Most major EV OEMs and engineers say there are significant efficiencies still to come. The Lucid Air is achieving ~4.5 miles per kWh, which is nearly double that of a BMW i4. The upper ceiling for EV efficiency is currently thought to be around 7-8 miles per kWh, so even though an EV powertrain is very efficient, there are still huge gains to be found in wheel bearing design (which are comparatively underdeveloped), tyre rolling resistance, higher voltage system architectures (I believe currently only Audi/Porsche and Kia have got 800v for sale publicly, expect to see that number grow) as well as improving how what heat is generated by the powertrain is used for the cabin and batteries etc.

 

[reddragon]

Most major EV OEMs and engineers say there are significant efficiencies still to come. The Lucid Air is achieving ~4.5 miles per kWh, which is nearly double that of a BMW i4. The upper ceiling for EV efficiency is currently thought to be around 7-8 miles per kWh, so even though an EV powertrain is very efficient, there are still huge gains to be found in wheel bearing design (which are comparatively underdeveloped), tyre rolling resistance, higher voltage system architectures (I believe currently only Audi/Porsche and Kia have got 800v for sale publicly, expect to see that number grow) as well as improving how what heat is generated by the powertrain is used for the cabin and batteries etc.

Mercedes are already achieving this with their EQXX prototype, range over 1200km on a charge with a 100 kw battery pack, others are following their lead.

 

[MotCO]

tyre rolling resistance

I've heard it said that EV cars have less tread on new tyres than ICE cars to reduce resistance, but with the consequence that tyres do not last so long. (And the additional weight of EV cars contributes to increased tyre wear.) Is there any truth to this rumour?

 

[reddragon]

I've heard it said that EV cars have less tread on new tyres than ICE cars to reduce resistance, but with the consequence that tyres do not last so long. (And the additional weight of EV cars contributes to increased tyre wear.) Is there any truth to this rumour?

Every EV I have seen or driven has the same tyres as an ICE car and last just as long.

As per any car, tyres can be a sales technique. EVs tend to have low energy tyres for longer range, sports car have high grip / strong side walls for performance. If the tyres are at high pressure the ride is firm, lower the pressure range reduces but a softer ride. Also EVs are often heavier than the ICE version so the load rating is higher. Tread types are by law the same and have ratings for energy, wet / dry grip & noise by virtue of having a standard to meet.

My LEAF had £250 eco tyres on it & I replace 2 with £100 tyres of the same rating near then end of my ownership after pothole damage. Range did not change. My new EV tyres are also less grippy than I'd like so will be changed too. The fact is that more grip = faster wear.

Evidence from high mileage drivers is that wear is the same.

 

[bspahh]

I've heard it said that EV cars have less tread on new tyres than ICE cars to reduce resistance, but with the consequence that tyres do not last so long. (And the additional weight of EV cars contributes to increased tyre wear.) Is there any truth to this rumour?

Electric cars weigh a bit more than ICE ones, so the tyres will have more work to do.

Car tyres are a compromise between lots of different properties - rolling resistance, grip when braking, accelerating and cornering, in the dry, wet and cold, ride quality, puncture resistance, cost, durability and noise. You can optimize some of these and get better performance in those, but it will be at the expense of others.

You might not notice the difference for some of these changes. For example, extra tyre noise may be acceptable for an electric car that doesn't have engine noise.

 

[trebor79]

Electric cars weigh a bit more than ICE ones, so the tyres will have more work to do.

Like a lot of things, it depends.
EV's tend to have better weight distribution that ICE cars, so the tyres are loaded more evenly meaning the front tyres are less loaded than in an ICE. Secondly, a number of EVs are rear wheel drive, which again evens out tyre wear to an extent with the rear wheels providing traction and the front wheels steering.
A lot of stuff is written about EV tyres and a lot of it is balony. You fit the right tyres, same as any car. You inflate them to the right pressure, same as any car. If you drive like a bat out of hell you'll wear them out more quickly, same as any car.

 

[Mawkie]

An article about the trial of Vehicle-To-Grid (V2G) technology. It seems the trial was success and with more cars now saying they are going include V2G technology in their new cars, is this a perfect way to balance the needs of the UK grid and 'save' a little on our electricity bills?

Octopus Energy & National Grid ESO Demonstrate Future Role For EVs In First For Great Britain - CleanTechnica

Sign up for daily news updates from CleanTechnica on email. Or follow us on Google News! The exciting potential benefits from the implementation of vehicle-to-grid (V2G) technologies have been discussed for have very long time here on CleanTechnica. We are starting to see more exciting...

cleantechnica.com

 

[trebor79]

An article about the trial of Vehicle-To-Grid (V2G) technology. It seems the trial was success and with more cars now saying they are going include V2G technology in their new cars, is this a perfect way to balance the needs of the UK grid and 'save' a little on our electricity bills?

Octopus Energy & National Grid ESO Demonstrate Future Role For EVs In First For Great Britain - CleanTechnica

Sign up for daily news updates from CleanTechnica on email. Or follow us on Google News! The exciting potential benefits from the implementation of vehicle-to-grid (V2G) technologies have been discussed for have very long time here on CleanTechnica. We are starting to see more exciting...

cleantechnica.com

I hope not! I've just invested in a significant sum to install home batteries to charge on cheap overnight power and run the house during the day from that. can't have schemes like this reducing the arbitrage opportunity!

 

[Bald Rick]

An article about the trial of Vehicle-To-Grid (V2G) technology. It seems the trial was success and with more cars now saying they are going include V2G technology in their new cars, is this a perfect way to balance the needs of the UK grid and 'save' a little on our electricity bills?

Octopus Energy & National Grid ESO Demonstrate Future Role For EVs In First For Great Britain - CleanTechnica

Sign up for daily news updates from CleanTechnica on email. Or follow us on Google News! The exciting potential benefits from the implementation of vehicle-to-grid (V2G) technologies have been discussed for have very long time here on CleanTechnica. We are starting to see more exciting...

cleantechnica.com

it will certainly have a big role in demand balancing.

I hope not! I've just invested in a significant sum to install home batteries to charge on cheap overnight power and run the house during the day from that. can't have schemes like this reducing the arbitrage opportunity!

Home batteries are a great investment, especially if linked to a decent sized solar Pv system (3kW+). I think that with increasing levels of EV ownership and grid balancing battery installations* the difference between overnight and day time electricity prices is likely to fall in the long term (5-10 years from now). In the short term it’s a great investment.

 

[trebor79]

Home batteries are a great investment, especially if linked to a decent sized solar Pv system (3kW+). I think that with increasing levels of EV ownership and grid balancing battery installations* the difference between overnight and day time electricity prices is likely to fall in the long term (5-10 years from now). In the short term it’s a great investment.

Actually I haven't put solar in for now. If I can buy electricity for 7.5p (or less) it's not really cost effective so someone else can have the cost and hassle of generating the power. If cheap overnight power stops being a thing I can put some panels on the room and wire them in to the inverter.
I think there will be some kind of differential into the future, otherwise all these.commerical scale batteries aren't going to pay back. Lots more wind coming on stream soon. It'll probably migrate from fixed times to something like Octopus Agile, but that's OK.

 

[Mawkie]

Actually I haven't put solar in for now. If I can buy electricity for 7.5p (or less) it's not really cost effective so someone else can have the cost and hassle of generating the power.

I had no idea this was a thing!

 

[trebor79]

I had no idea this was a thing!

Neither did I really till I wondered in an idle moment and did a bit of research.

 

[Bald Rick]

If you can buy electricity at 7.5p / kWh, then I can see how it will work. However there’s not many (any?) tariffs around that offer that, and given that right now on a summer evening the wholesale price of electricity is 74.6p/kWH, I suspect that any such deals will be short lived.

 

[paul1609]

If you can buy electricity at 7.5p / kWh, then I can see how it will work. However there’s not many (any?) tariffs around that offer that, and given that right now on a summer evening the wholesale price of electricity is 74.6p/kWH, I suspect that any such deals will be short lived.

To be honest I cant see how a home battery without either solar or wind will work in most cases. If you are a low user the payback time will be pushing the life of the battery. If you are a high user you will need a massive battery otherwise your peak load is going to need to draw from the grid at the premium peak rates you need to pay to get 4 hours of ultra cheap power in the middle of the night.

 

[trebor79]

If you can buy electricity at 7.5p / kWh, then I can see how it will work. However there’s not many (any?) tariffs around that offer that, and given that right now on a summer evening the wholesale price of electricity is 74.6p/kWH, I suspect that any such deals will be short lived.

EDF had a 4.5p rate, fixed for a year until very recently.
I'm with Octopus, weirdly the day rate is lower than their flat rate fixed tariff (EDF day rate was very high as you'd expect). Its also fixed for a year.
I think it's all to do with avoiding curtailment fees when supply is higher than demand. You are meant to have an EV for to get these tariffs, I have one arriving in a few weeks (allegedly).

To be honest I cant see how a home battery without either solar or wind will work in most cases. If you are a low user the payback time will be pushing the life of the battery. If you are a high user you will need a massive battery otherwise your peak load is going to need to draw from the grid at the premium peak rates you need to pay to get 4 hours of ultra cheap power in the middle of the night.

The batteries are modular so very scalable. You are correct that you need to select the inverter with care. I've gone for a 5kW model (will peak higher than that for a few minute or seconds depending how high)which should meet 98% of our usual loads.
At current prices this is going to payback in about 4 years (when I costed it was 7). Of course.im reliant upon that arbitrage being these, but if it disappears I'll plug some solar panels into the inverter.

 

[Sm5]

My non stop EV record on 1 charge on a motorway is 190 miles using 78% charge, my 1 day trip record in an EV is 400 miles. I expect to break that this year maybe even beating my day diesel record. EVs are realistic.

Not convinced on those stats.

For around town the benefits of an EV is clear.

Going up the M40/6 from London to Manchester, this isnt going to cut it.. of course once you arrive, how do you recharge to return south, if your staying at friends etc, not a hotel, and whom may not have a charging point ?

Agree its getting better, but a liquid fuel replacement it still is not… the convenience that cars offered to replace trains was obvious, but to replace oil with EV is still not there yet.

When you can reliably and consistently get 500 miles, at mixed speeds of upto 70mph on a snowy day in January on a 3 -5 year old car batteries, and recharge it within 5 minutes at the pump… then its there.

As long your reliant on hours of preplanning, extended breaks, risk the vagaries of available charging enroute and be happy with much longer more manicured travel plans, then a train starts to look more attractive than an EV journey.

How does electric car charging economics stand up to the up coming energy price “caps” tariffs ?

 

[AM9]

Not convinced on those stats.

For around town the benefits of an EV is clear.

Going up the M40/6 from London to Manchester, this isnt going to cut it.. of course once you arrive, how do you recharge to return south, if your staying at friends etc, not a hotel, and whom may not have a charging point ?

Agree its getting better, but a liquid fuel replacement it still is not… the convenience that cars offered to replace trains was obvious, but to replace oil with EV is still not there yet.

When you can reliably and consistently get 500 miles, at mixed speeds of upto 70mph on a snowy day in January on a 3 -5 year old car batteries, and recharge it within 5 minutes at the pump… then its there.

How does electric car charging economics stand up to the up coming energy price “caps” tariffs ?

Or you could say how will car fossil fuel economics stand up to solar/grid charging costs in a few years when the oil companies' dominance breaks down.

 

[E27007]

The question is not is it realistic but when will it be realistic. Currently for a majority of the population it isn't, for the reasons you stated as well as the cost.

I agree with your thinking, The year when production and sale of new straight-IC engine cars will cease in the UK is 2030, I think 2030 is the newest announcement by Big Brother. The Green Light for 2030 , where did it come from? How was it derived?
A result of deep analysis by scientists and engineers? Expert practioners of EV technology with a timeline for progress in battery development? Feasibilty of supply of raw materials for battery manufacture and costs? I have my doubts, more likely a nice round figure plucked from the Ether by Politicians.
I think it is very foolish to tarnish all IC cars big or small with a blanket ban, for the years 2030 onwards, the engineers are capable of designing cars IC- engine capable of low pollution and high efficiency, unfortunately they are not the cars Politicians ever set foot in.

 

[Bald Rick]

Going up the M40/6 from London to Manchester, this isnt going to cut it.. of course once you arrive, how do you recharge to return south, if your staying at friends etc, not a hotel, and whom may not have a charging point ?

given that I know several people who have done this sort of trip (and longer) in EVs it clearly is entirely feasible.

what they do is one of two things:

1) charge up en route, combing the charging with a service station stop they would have made anyway
2) charge up the other end at a charging station. if staying at a hotel, they choose one with charging. If not, and where they are staying doesn’t have a three pin plug (!) find a charging point somewhere!

 

[trebor79]

Not convinced on those stats.

For around town the benefits of an EV is clear.

Going up the M40/6 from London to Manchester, this isnt going to cut it.. of course once you arrive, how do you recharge to return south, if your staying at friends etc, not a hotel, and whom may not have a charging point ?

The same way you refuel an ICE car if your friend doesn't happen to have a petrol pump and 12,000l tank under the drive! You stop somewhere for 20 minutes, have a tea and pee and are on your way again.

 

[Domh245]

As someone who'll be in an EV going from London to Manchester (via M1) this evening, the solution is a stop at Rugby services, which usually then means arriving at the destination with around 10-20% left in the battery. Then over the next few days, charge up with free 2h bursts at a local tescos! If we were only there for one day, then we'd probably have to seek out a dedicated fast charger and align that with some other trip.

Returning down the M40, the preferred option is a charging station in Banbury just off the motorway with more chargers than most services (but again, getting busier every time we go through!)

 

[paul1609]

EDF had a 4.5p rate, fixed for a year until very recently.
I'm with Octopus, weirdly the day rate is lower than their flat rate fixed tariff (EDF day rate was very high as you'd expect). Its also fixed for a year.
I think it's all to do with avoiding curtailment fees when supply is higher than demand. You are meant to have an EV for to get these tariffs, I have one arriving in a few weeks (allegedly).

The batteries are modular so very scalable. You are correct that you need to select the inverter with care. I've gone for a 5kW model (will peak higher than that for a few minute or seconds depending how high)which should meet 98% of our usual loads.
At current prices this is going to payback in about 4 years (when I costed it was 7). Of course.im reliant upon that arbitrage being these, but if it disappears I'll plug some solar panels into the inverter.

Is this a real application or a theoretical one? If the discharge rate of the batteries/ invertor floating on the grid is 5Kwp it will be capped at that otherwise if you get an unexpected peak such as a fridge freezer capacitor start it risks damaging the invertor.
Even a 5 Kwp output requires a large battery most installers would recommend 13 Kwh + I think.

 

[trebor79]

Is this a real application or a theoretical one? If the discharge rate of the batteries/ invertor floating on the grid is 5Kwp it will be capped at that otherwise if you get an unexpected peak such as a fridge freezer capacitor start it risks damaging the invertor.
Even a 5 Kwp output requires a large battery most installers would recommend 13 Kwh + I think.

It's a real application, half installed, just waiting on the inverter which is arriving today (or so I'm promised).
It's a grid-parallel inverter rated at 5.5kW continuous but can peak at 11kW for 10 seconds. It looks after itself so you don't need to worry about it. There's a current monitor on the main supply into the house, and the inverter modulates its output to keep that at zero (except when charging the batteries from grid, of course). If the demand is more than the inverter or batteries can provide, the balance is made up with grid power. It won't blow itself up because the fridge starts at the same time as the kettle and microwave are running.

I'm using 3 5kWh batteries in parallel. Each battery can charge/discharge at 5kW, so they are going to have an easy life, even at peak loads. Again, each has a battery management system talking to the inverter - if it asks for more than they can do they just won't do it.

 

[reddragon]

Not convinced on those stats.

For around town the benefits of an EV is clear.

Going up the M40/6 from London to Manchester, this isnt going to cut it.. of course once you arrive, how do you recharge to return south, if your staying at friends etc, not a hotel, and whom may not have a charging point ?

Agree its getting better, but a liquid fuel replacement it still is not… the convenience that cars offered to replace trains was obvious, but to replace oil with EV is still not there yet.

When you can reliably and consistently get 500 miles, at mixed speeds of upto 70mph on a snowy day in January on a 3 -5 year old car batteries, and recharge it within 5 minutes at the pump… then its there.

As long your reliant on hours of preplanning, extended breaks, risk the vagaries of available charging enroute and be happy with much longer more manicured travel plans, then a train starts to look more attractive than an EV journey.

How does electric car charging economics stand up to the up coming energy price “caps” tariffs ?

So I drive 190 miles home on the M6 & M40 using 78% of charge and because you don't like the answer I am somehow a liar?

I have just come back from a few weeks holiday. I dove 3500 miles in my EV in France, Andorra, Spain & Portugal trouble free cruising at 70, 75 and 80 mph with a fully loaded car, yes an EV. I drove 470 miles across France in a day with 3 charge stops and a few extra comfort breaks. I drove 300 miles over 6 mountain passes in the Pyrenees at up to 2408m with 2 charges. I drove 625 miles from France to Portugal with 4 charge stops and a few extra comfort stops. No I do not own a Tesla or a posh expensive EV.

London to Manchester is easy non stop, but yes I agree in the winter with low temperatures below about 7C it's not as easy but only a fool drives 4-5 hours without a break.

The 500 miles range non stop drive with 5 minute stops is a fantasy for fools. No normal does this even with 2 drivers. I did 625 miles in one go with an EV with sensible stops. An ICE would not have been quicker and honestly those distances in an ICE are beyond anyone's sanity whereas in the EV on 'auto-drive' it's a breeze.

Yes pre-planning is still required in Spain and was for Andorra but UK, France & Portugal it's no longer required.

It cost me 8p/mile on this trip and home charging costs me 1p/mile with Go / Solar.