E Scooters on Trains

[mtmikethom]

Is there any reason why there can’t be a common policy across the railway regarding E Scooters? apart from TfL I notice London Northwestern have banned them on trains and stations but Avanti WC allow them, not sure if any more have banned them, not that people are taking any notice on TfL

Is there any reason why there can’t be a common policy across the railway regarding E Scooters? apart from TfL I notice London Northwestern have banned them on trains and stations but Avanti WC allow them, not sure if any more have banned them, not that people are taking any notice on TfL

My apologies if there is a thread regarding this.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

Case by case basis I guess. Presumably Avanti haven’t had once catch fire on their trains yet nor do they have to deal with people riding them in carriages.

 

[zwk500]

It's very possible to have a common policy, but that would require the different companies to have similar views about the pros and cons of such a policy. It's very possible that e-scooters are already covered in the by-laws or conditions of travel/carriage (forget what they're called) so don't need any further rules imposed, although I believe other threads have been unable to reach a consensus on that last point.

 

[Kneedown]

Why would e-scooters be provided for on trains when it is currently illegal to use them on the pubic highway? I'm aware there are exemptions for some local authority schemes, but i'm pretty sure they are only intended to be used within certain areas and not taken farther afield

 

[HST43277]

Looks like EMR will be the next to ban them.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Why would e-scooters be provided for on trains when it is currently illegal to use them on the pubic highway? I'm aware there are exemptions for some local authority schemes, but i'm pretty sure they are only intended to be used within certain areas and not taken farther afield

I think this is the crux of the matter - unlike electrically assisted bikes, these are not legal to use so there really shouldn't be any TOCs allowing them onboard

 

[AM9]

I think this is the crux of the matter - unlike electrically assisted bikes, these are not legal to use so there really shouldn't be any TOCs allowing them onboard

Agreed, they're not legal on footpaths or pavements too, so they shouldn't be admitted anywhere onto railway property.

 

[zwk500]

They are, however, legal to own and use on private property. It would be rather overreaching for the railway to ban them because of where they can/can't be used off its system.
The decision to permit e scooters or not should be based on their impact on the railway and its customers, not the legal position on public rights of way.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

They are, however, legal to own and use on private property. It would be rather overreaching for the railway to ban them because of where they can/can't be used off its system.
The decision to permit e scooters or not should be based on their impact on the railway and its customers, not the legal position on public rights of way.

And the railway is private property too, and it seems they are not wanted on its property. Whether that is to do with the legality of using them, or the fact people charge them onboard or can be a very clear danger on platforms is neither here nor there if you want to use the private property angle.

As and when they become legal to use on public highways a change to the rules may happen, but there many concern around the usage of this form of transportation. Personally, I am happy with my TOC banning them.

 

[zwk500]

And the railway is private property too, and it seems they are not wanted on its property. Whether that is to do with the legality of using them, or the fact people charge them onboard or can be a very clear danger on platforms is neither here nor there if you want to use the private property angle.

As and when they become legal to use on public highways a change to the rules may happen, but there many concern around the usage of this form of transportation. Personally, I am happy with my TOC banning them.

Don't get me wrong, the railway is absolutely right to ban them from the network if they are causing a hazard or nuisance or whatever.

My point was that the decision should be made purely on the basis of what happens on the network, not about their legal status in public streets.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Don't get me wrong, the railway is absolutely right to ban them from the network if they are causing a hazard or nuisance or whatever.

My point was that the decision should be made purely on the basis of what happens on the network, not about their legal status in public streets.

Exactly, they have been a pain to deal with for a few years now. People riding them on platforms and concourses being the main one, plus there's the charging issue onboard trains.

The legal side of it just makes it very simple for TOCs to say a big fat no.

 

[Wynd]

We want to encourage more sustainable means of transport, but show hostility to those means at some many junctures.

 

[AlterEgo]

We want to encourage more sustainable means of transport, but show hostility to those means at some many junctures.

In London, private E-Scooters mostly make foot journeys faster. They do not encourage modal shift from polluting modes like cars.

They’ve basically carbonised walking.

 

[1955LR]

As these electric scooters are classed as motor vehicles under the road traffic acts, and don't meet the regulations for the same, is there not already a ban on bringing them onto platforms and trains ? I am sure if I tried to enter with a petrol engined one, I wouldn't get far.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

As these electric scooters are classed as motor vehicles under the road traffic acts, and don't meet the regulations for the same, is there not already a ban on bringing them onto platforms and trains ? I am sure if I tried to enter with a petrol engined one, I wouldn't get far.

It seems currently there are some operators who do allow/accept them but they are the exception to the rule up to now.

We want to encourage more sustainable means of transport, but show hostility to those means at some many junctures.

There is no hostility - they are not road legal and therefore are not a valid means of transportation.

There is potentially hostility to users of them due to the number of flashpoints there are daily due to users thinking they are a legal for of transportation and that they should be able to use them wherever and whenever they like.

Once they are, and there needs to be some change in legislation for it, then adequate facilities to store them should be provided to encourage such things like bikes have.

 

[Wynd]

The not legal status of these is the hostility. The lack of integration in to public transport is just fuel on the fire.

If one goes to the continent, you can see these things have been well integrated. Its all stemming from the very fashionable "hate cyclists" mantra.

 

[bengley]

I'm surprised at the number of posts on here supporting a ban.

They are sustainable transport - I have used one many times in place of a car journey. During COVID they enabled people to make journeys in London without using public transport.

The whole thing about these things catching fire is blown out of proportion - it's incredibly rare and where they have done so it's probably because they're a cheap knock-off brand.

Mobile phones can just suddenly burst into flames - indeed anything with a lithium battery in can, but they aren't banned, are they?

 

[Jonno271]

This is a topic particularly interesting to me. I recently purchased an e-scooter with the intention of using it as transport for the often missing "last mile" (or 3 miles in my case) part of my commute when I start with my local TOC in a few weeks.

I understand the legal position (which I believe is ludicrous and only not resolved as the gov't haven't figured out how to tax it yet) and the very mixed opinions on their use, so thought I could put forward my case for comment.....

Obviously, as a rail employee there is the option for free use of trains within my TOCs network. So, it makes sense that instead of commuting 17miles by car along one of the worst parts of the M4 for heavy, polluting traffic that I use the train. My local station is 3 miles via cycle path from the house and is literally door to station door and takes 14mins on the scooter. The alternative to this 3 mile cycle path trip is a 5 mile drive through town, mostly at very low speed with a lot of idling at traffic lights etc. and parking at the end costs £10/day.

I also own an e-bike, which is perfectly legal to use on the cycle path but comes with it's own issues, mainly it's size and there is no way I'm leaving a £3k bike locked up at a train station in plain view, it would be gone in minutes. The alternative may be a cheapo bike, but then you're into the realms of getting sweaty etc. which I just don't want before work. It's was OK for my last job where there were showers in work, but no good if your role doesn't allow for this.

There is also the bus option. I have a stop 20yds from the house but the bus takes 40mins and stops at the central bus station on the opposite side of town to the train station. Furthermore, the bus times and train times do not marry up, resulting in a total journey time of nearly 90mins due to waiting.

So to summarise the options.....

1. Drive the car, takes 16mins, burns fuel, pollutes and costs £10/day to park. Total journey time to work circa. 35mins.
2. Take the bus and suffer a total journey time of 90mins. Costs £4/day.
3. Use e-scooter to get to station in 14mins and then free train. Total journey time approx. 30 mins. Costs £0 (apart from electric to charge at home which is pennies).

So perhaps you can see why I made the decision to buy a scooter. The bigger issue I believe is the standard of scooters being sold and the people who ride them.

There are hundreds of cheap scooters available from the far east with very questionable QA and build quality. These sorts of goods manufacturers are known not to develop products properly and treat the customer as QA. It is not uncommon in China for goods to be returned 3 times as faulty with customers happy to accept replacement. Sadly, this trend seems to be spreading to the West. It is these scooters I believe that are more likely to spontaneously combust than the type I have purchased, which is from a British brand with waterproofed sealed electrics installed to higher standards.

Even more of a problem is the people that ride them. It's like any mode of transport - a car/motorbike/train/scooter or whatever is not dangerous in it's own right, it is the operator that is dangerous. For context, when approaching pedestrians on the cycle path I slow to walking pace to pass on the scooter. On a few occasions I have dismounted and pushed past elderly pedestrians that seemed intimidated. On one such occasion where I slowed to walking pace and gave a wide berth, a cyclist came between myself and the pedestrian at full tilt and scared the life out of the pedestrian!

Having researched my TOCs terms and conditions, there is no mention of e-scooters specifically but maximum dimensions are stated for mobility scooters which the e-scooter obviously fits within, especially when folded. I also have a bag with a shoulder strap to carry it which is about the size of a large duffle bag and have no intention of charging onboard, so nobody would be any the wiser as to the carriage of my scooter. Furthermore, if mobility scooters are allowed on trains, batteries and all, then what's the difference? They likely use the same modern lithium technology.

It is for these reasons I hope my TOC does not ban e-scooters and why I believe cased based banning seems to be the current approach.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What we need to sort out is to introduce them legally, but on a regulated basis. Having used the hire ones extensively, I would suggest a top speed of 10mph (you could go as far as 15, but they are much harder to control even just 5mph faster) and permitted wherever pedal cycles are on the same legal basis. It could then be made illegal to sell or use in public any that did not have UKCA certification, and that would be the basis of whether they were permitted on trains too (solving the battery explosion issue, as to be certified they would need to have some form of battery safety regulation - you don't after all see e-bikes, a premium product, blowing up all over the place).

The Government missed a trick in my view of allowing them on open sale before they were legal to use in public.

In a regulated form they are very much compatible with public transport, both rail and bus, much more so than bicycles as they can be folded very small and so take up much less space. Like folding bicycles (which mostly fold larger than a scooter) they could easily be permitted without restriction on peak trains.

 

[Ediswan]

The Government missed a trick in my view of allowing them on open sale before they were legal to use in public.

AIUI, they were/are legal to sell under pe-existing legislation, nothing was explicitly allowed. The government would have had to introduce new legislation/regulations to prohibit their sale.

 

[Bletchleyite]

AIUI, they were/are legal to sell under pe-existing legislation, nothing was explicitly allowed. The government would have had to introduce new legislation/regulations to prohibit their sale.

Fair point, but yes, I think they should have done.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

The not legal status of these is the hostility. The lack of integration in to public transport is just fuel on the fire.

If one goes to the continent, you can see these things have been well integrated. Its all stemming from the very fashionable "hate cyclists" mantra.

But we're not 'on the continent', it's not hostile for it to be not legal.

I'm a keen cyclist and bike to work everyday, I have no issue with e-scooters once legislation supports them.

There needs to be a mandated requirement of lights and helmet use as a minimum, use of cycle lanes where there are some (none by me that's for sure) and not to be used on pavements like they always seem to be. This is how cyclist are meant to ride, policing it is another matter though.

Can the batteries be removed from most e-scooters? Noticed that our TOC specifically requires that batteries be removed or isolated on e-bikes, so maybe that's another reason why they are not allowed

 

[Bletchleyite]

There needs to be a mandated requirement of lights and helmet use as a minimum, use of cycle lanes where there are some (none by me that's for sure) and not to be used on pavements like they always seem to be. This is how cyclist are meant to ride, policing it is another matter though.

Lights would make sense as part of the type approval; all the hire ones have them built in so this would be a sensible standard. Helmets less so, they are very low speed devices, slower than most people will ride a bicycle, so unless you intend to introduce running helmets it seems a bit spurious and possibly even vindictive.

To me they should require type approval (to deal with battery safety and mandate a speed limit, to me ideally 10mph) and after that simply be subject to the exact same laws and rules as an e-bike.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Lights would make sense as part of the type approval; all the hire ones have them built in so this would be a sensible standard. Helmets less so, they are very low speed devices, slower than most people will ride a bicycle, so unless you intend to introduce running helmets it seems a bit spurious and possibly even vindictive.

To me they should require type approval (to deal with battery safety and mandate a speed limit, to me ideally 10mph) and after that simply be subject to the exact same laws and rules as an e-bike.

Surely the requirement to use roads would demand a helmet? E-bikes seem to be around 15-18 mph, so would suggest around 15 max for e-scooters.
Just glad that petrol scooters/bikes hasn't really become a thing! Talk about deadly.

 

[Jonno271]

Can the batteries be removed from most e-scooters? Noticed that our TOC specifically requires that batteries be removed or isolated on e-bikes, so maybe that's another reason why they are not allowed

That's a strange one. Many e-bikes, my own included, have fully integrated batteries in the down tube which cannot be removed. Unless switching it off via the power button classes it as being "isolated", then the rules are already "broken" for e-bikes. As I look to buy another, I note that integrated batteries are becoming the norm.

It strikes me these types of products are being developed too fast for legislation/rules to keep up.

Mandating helmets or even reducing their speed to below that of an e-bikes assistance will always be contentious I think. Parity is what is required, why they can't just be re-classified to a mode of transport that fits in with cycling rules is beyond me.

Definitely agree with approvals though, at least to the same degree as e-bikes.

Surely the requirement to use roads would demand a helmet? E-bikes seem to be around 15-18 mph, so would suggest around 15 max for e-scooters.
Just glad that petrol scooters/bikes hasn't really become a thing! Talk about deadly.

But bikes use roads and can go faster than 15mph and helmets are not mandatory for cyclists, so why should they be for scooters? I'm not bothered, I wear one anyway but your argument seems flawed somewhat.

The legal limit for e-bike assistance is 15.5mph.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Surely the requirement to use roads would demand a helmet? E-bikes seem to be around 15-18 mph, so would suggest around 15 max for e-scooters.
Just glad that petrol scooters/bikes hasn't really become a thing! Talk about deadly.

The trial ones are I believe all limited to 13mph, which actually feels quite fast. I once got a faulty one that was limited to 10mph, and that was much nicer to ride. It's fairly hard to control the speed of them using the type of trigger throttle provided, so it's typically "stop" or "go".

It strikes me these types of products are being developed too fast for legislation/rules to keep up.

Indeed so.

Mandating helmets or even reducing their speed to below that of an e-bikes assistance will always be contentious I think. Parity is what is required, why they can't just be re-classified to a mode of transport that fits in with cycling rules is beyond me.

Definitely agree with approvals though, at least to the same degree as e-bikes.

With regard to helmets to me the rule should be the same as a bicycle - indeed pretty much all rules should be other than the top speed as they are harder to handle than one. I do wear one, but I oppose mandation, but if mandated for e-scooters they should also be mandated for bicycles.

 

[AlterEgo]

The not legal status of these is the hostility. The lack of integration in to public transport is just fuel on the fire.

If one goes to the continent, you can see these things have been well integrated. Its all stemming from the very fashionable "hate cyclists" mantra.

People should cycle, not use electricity to carbonise otherwise carbon-free journeys.

Has anyone discarded their car in favour of an E-Scooter?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Has anyone discarded their car in favour of an E-Scooter?

Discarded it no, but I have made a few (not many) journeys with one that I would otherwise have driven. I technically could have walked them but it'd have taken longer so I probably wouldn't have done.

 

[Jonno271]

Has anyone discarded their car in favour of an E-Scooter?

For the purposes of my commute, yes.

 

[northernbelle]

I suspect most TOCs will ban these during 2022.

The implications of a battery fire on board a train are quite hideous - part of the current problem is that the illegality of riding them leads to people purchasing such devices from less reputable suppliers leading to poor quality and therefore a higher risk of a fault.

The battery capacity of one of these things is significantly more than your average phone or laptop - if you want to see what happens to a defective Lithium Iron battery in a e-Scooter and imagine it happening on board a crowded train, watch this: