East Midlands Railway overcrowding issues

[jayah]

Reported in Modern Railways a while back that the original plan was for 31 out of 33 unites needed, hence the (now discarded) plan to keep the 4 x 180s.

Realistically, you'd plan for around 28/29 out of 33 units. The base timetable requires 19 units, so that will leave you with 9/10 for strengthening, so around 50% of services could be 10 car, assuming that the sets are used all day and not just at peak times.

There will still be an increase in capacity, the 27 x 222s and 4 x 180s being replaced by 33 x 810s.

Assuming Wikipedia is correct...
The 27 x 222s have a total of 1618 1st and 5206 std seats .
The 180s have around 160 1st and 900 std seats.
The 33 x 810 have a total of 1551 1st and 8382 std seats.
And south of Kettering may/will get 12 car 360s at some point.

They were never going to get 31/33 into traffic every day, that was pure fantasy, presumably designed to meet some or other target.

They may be longer vehicles, but the Class 810 at 254 standard seats is barely better than a Class 180. Nowhere near enough for a major route out of London. An 8 car EMU is be well over 400.

They never learn - TfW and Northern bought brand new fleets of 110 seat 2 car units.

 

[jayah]

I think in passengers' point of view, the advice of using rail replacement bus to Milton Keynes is ridiculous enough. They would just look for their own alternative like what we have seen today or even get rid of railway instead.

It is very clear that the current way of planning engineer works does not cope with the trend of having less commuters but much much more leisurers and the whole industry must carefully review this.

It is a sad decline from the days of Project Rio.

 

[jayah]

Correct, I was thinking when they can get to Nottingham / Derby under their own power. I can’t think of many times they will be needed either to be honest. Unless the football brings large crowds. If they are used for engineering work cover like this weekend they are moving large crowds to Derby where a small DMU will be overwhelmed. We already see this a lot when the MML is shut and the crowds travel via Grantham to Nottingham. The 2 car sprinter is often unable to cope with the crowds between Nottingham and Grantham.

They have stored 4x156? There is no need for this, even the age old 'national shortage of DMUs' is bust now.

 

[liamf656]

They may be longer vehicles, but the Class 810 at 254 standard seats is barely better than a Class 180. Nowhere near enough for a major route out of London. An 8 car EMU is be well over 400.

It’s said often on here that a 5 car 810 will have more standard seats than a 7 car Meridian (254 vs 236) (for completeness a 5 car 222 only has 192 standard seats)

They have stored 4x156? There is no need for this, even the age old 'national shortage of DMUs' is bust now.

Those 4 156s are unfit for purpose now with excessive corrosion. You have to remember that these trains are 35 years old now and is increasingly difficult to keep them in good shape

 

[JonathanH]

Given Euston blocks are routine why not put a long-term plan in place to extend one Thameslink services an hour to Kettering/Corby vice the Connect services during blocks? This gives redirected passengers a direct London service instead of changing at Bedford so their more likely to use it instead of overcrowding the IC services. Thameslink drivers conducted by EMR drivers north of Bedford should be possible vice the usual Connect 360 service, the 360's released could then strengthen the remaining Connect services.

Not really sure how that helps. It would be better to get all 21 360s working properly so they can form 12 car trains on the six Corby cycles. However, even that only gets people as far as Kettering and Corby, when the issues are getting people to Leicester.

Running the electrification to Nuneaton would create the best flexibility but that isn't happening soon.

 

[jayah]

It’s said often on here that a 5 car 810 will have more standard seats than a 7 car Meridian (254 vs 236) (for completeness a 5 car 222 only has 192 standard seats)


Those 4 156s are unfit for purpose now with excessive corrosion. You have to remember that these trains are 35 years old now and is increasingly difficult to keep them in good shape

People always say things are unfit, not viable, not economic when they need an excuse. The other 109 in class are still running around perfectly well and the reason these 4 are not being used is because someone realised they could save a few beans by making passengers stand up.

7 car Meridians always had a ridiculous amount of first class. 254 standard is still nowhere near enough and 10 cars will be the exception not the rule for the same reason as above.

 

[bunnahabhain]

People always say things are unfit, not viable, not economic when they need an excuse. The other 109 in class are still running around perfectly well and the reason these 4 are not being used is because someone realised they could save a few beans by making passengers stand up.

7 car Meridians always had a ridiculous amount of first class. 254 standard is still nowhere near enough and 10 cars will be the exception not the rule for the same reason as above.

The 7 cars were fine when they had 6 cars standard and 3 cars first.

 

[baz962]

The 7 cars were fine when they had 6 cars standard and 3 cars first.

6 standard and 3 first makes 9 car

 

[STINT47]

6 standard and 3 first makes 9 car

When first introduced the Meridians were a mix of 9 and 5 car trains

 

[baz962]

When first introduced the Meridians were a mix of 9 and 5 car trains

The poster I quoted said that the 7 car were fine when they had 6 standard and 3 first. I know they had 9 car trains , but a seven car obviously can't have that mix

 

[JonathanH]

When first introduced the Meridians were a mix of 9 and 5 car trains

9 car and 4 car trains.

 

[43066]

People always say things are unfit, not viable, not economic when they need an excuse. The other 109 in class are still running around perfectly well and the reason these 4 are not being used is because someone realised they could save a few beans by making passengers stand up.

You obviously missed the thread where @LowLevel posted a photo of the corrosion holes in the side of one of the units. When you can see light coming through the side of the train, other than through doors or windows, that’s more than just an excuse…

The poster I quoted said that the 7 car were fine when they had 6 standard and 3 first. I know they had 9 car trains , but a seven car obviously can't have that mix

That’s why the TMS software can cope with 13 car formations; 9+4, as they were originally delivered.

 

[tbtc]

It’s said often on here that a 5 car 810 will have more standard seats than a 7 car Meridian (254 vs 236) (for completeness a 5 car 222 only has 192 standard seats)

This doesn’t get mentioned enough IMHO

The shortest 810 diagram will have more Standard seats than the longest single 222

People always say things are unfit, not viable, not economic when they need an excuse. The other 109 in class are still running around perfectly well and the reason these 4 are not being used is because someone realised they could save a few beans by making passengers stand up

Or maybe because its not unrealistic for a couple of units in a fleet of over a hundred to be the runts of the litter and be scraped slightly earlier than their classmates

It’s not as if thirty five years is a bad age; they’d have been scrapped before now if Network Rail has delivered the planned electrification a decade ago and had therefore moved onto secondary routes

7 car Meridians always had a ridiculous amount of first class. 254 standard is still nowhere near enough and 10 cars will be the exception not the rule for the same reason as above

Thirty three units is sufficient for quite a few diagrams to be doubled up, if you consider that a round trip might be something like…

2h00 London to Sheffield (fast)
2h30 Sheffield to London (slow)
1h30 London to Nottingham (fast)
2h00 Nottingham to London (slow)

…call that something like 9h30 to allow for layovers etc, and that means nineteen diagrams to provide a half hourly service

(I’m allowing ninety minutes of layovers but obviously these can be much more efficient on a railway where all services from London to the East Midlands are the same type of unit, rather than the old practice of segregating Nottingham and Sheffield services)

Even allowing for maintenance/ accidents etc, thirty three trains to run nineteen diagrams surely leaves plenty of scope for doubling up

 

[bunnahabhain]

6 standard and 3 first makes 9 car

Yes, correct. Which 222001-007 were when first delivered.

 

[TheBigD]

This doesn’t get mentioned enough IMHO

The shortest 810 diagram will have more Standard seats than the longest single 222


Thirty three units is sufficient for quite a few diagrams to be doubled up, if you consider that a round trip might be something like…

2h00 London to Sheffield (fast)
2h30 Sheffield to London (slow)
1h30 London to Nottingham (fast)
2h00 Nottingham to London (slow)

…call that something like 9h30 to allow for layovers etc, and that means nineteen diagrams to provide a half hourly service

(I’m allowing ninety minutes of layovers but obviously these can be much more efficient on a railway where all services from London to the East Midlands are the same type of unit, rather than the old practice of segregating Nottingham and Sheffield services)

Even allowing for maintenance/ accidents etc, thirty three trains to run nineteen diagrams surely leaves plenty of scope for doubling up

Your maths are correct. 19 units for the base timetable plus 1 unit for the current Melton Mowbray (which runs attched to a Nottingham south of Kettering), which would theoretically leave another 8-9 x 810s for strengthening.

For comparison the current requirement from EMR's Intercity Fleet is...

(worked out from the EMR Diagrams thread posted on here)

4 x 180 - SX 2, SO 1, SuO 3
23 x 222/5 - SX 20, SO 18, SuO 18
4 x 222/7 - SX 4, SO 3, SuO 3

SX 26 out of 31 required.
SO 22 out of 31 required.
SuO 24 out of 31 required.

 

[louis97]

4 x 180 - SX 2, SO 1, SuO 3
23 x 222/5 - SX 20, SO 18, SuO 18
4 x 222/7 - SX 4, SO 3, SuO 3

SX 26 out of 31 required.
SO 22 out of 31 required.
SuO 24 out of 31 required.

Slight correction to the above, the way the reservations are setup now also allows for a 7-car to be replaced with a 5-car and only unreserved seating is affected:

180 - FSX 2, FO 3
222/5 - MTO 21, WThO 20, FO 19, SO 20, SuO 20
222/7 - MTO 3, WThFO 4

 

[TheBigD]

Slight correction to the above, the way the reservations are setup now also allows for a 7-car to be replaced with a 5-car and only unreserved seating is affected:

180 - FSX 2, FO 3
222/5 - MTO 21, WThO 20, FO 19, SO 20, SuO 20
222/7 - MTO 3, WThFO 4

Cheers for the update!

(I worked it out from the EMR Diagrams thread so no doubt made a few errors/assumptions)

 

[QSK19]

People always say things are unfit, not viable, not economic when they need an excuse. The other 109 in class are still running around perfectly well and the reason these 4 are not being used is because someone realised they could save a few beans by making passengers stand up.

I think you’re getting quite a bit of stick here; however, to expand on @43066 ’s post #132, a picture showing the holes of corrosion in 156917 is in @LowLevel ’s post here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/emr-class-156s-for-northern.221430/page-11#post-5944060

Another picture showing 156409 being stripped to the shell was posted by @diligentdave and is here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/emr-class-156s-for-northern.221430/page-11#post-5943260.

Clearly, many of the 156s are unfit for purpose. Would you really want to travel on a unit that is so rotten that it needs stripping down that much? I was on 917 for a journey and it was well-ventilated near the vestibule area - albeit via holes in the shell as opposed to via windows. That is simply not fit for purpose.

Whilst the DfT have quite rightly had a lot of criticism for bean counting (it drives me mad sometimes), sidelining the worst 156s is absolutely the right thing to do.

 

[jayah]

You obviously missed the thread where @LowLevel posted a photo of the corrosion holes in the side of one of the units. When you can see light coming through the side of the train, other than through doors or windows, that’s more than just an excuse…



That’s why the TMS software can cope with 13 car formations; 9+4, as they were originally delivered.

There are units in very bad if not worse condition that have been repaired and others still running. There is also plan on there to progressively dump more 156s into store as other stock is cascaded while very recently refurbished HSTs are also being stood down.

It is clear there is a 1 in 1 out (or worse) policy operating in respect of these diesel fleets which means the much reported crowding issues across Northern, Cross Country TfW and EMR will continue, despite the stock to fix them having been built and paid for already.

 

[jayah]

I think you’re getting quite a bit of stick here; however, to expand on @43066 ’s post #132, a picture showing the holes of corrosion in 156917 is in @LowLevel ’s post here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/emr-class-156s-for-northern.221430/page-11#post-5944060

Another picture showing 156409 being stripped to the shell was posted by @diligentdave and is here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/emr-class-156s-for-northern.221430/page-11#post-5943260.

Clearly, many of the 156s are unfit for purpose. Would you really want to travel on a unit that is so rotten that it needs stripping down that much? I was on 917 for a journey and it was well-ventilated near the vestibule area - albeit via holes in the shell as opposed to via windows. That is simply not fit for purpose.

Whilst the DfT have quite rightly had a lot of criticism for bean counting (it drives me mad sometimes), sidelining the worst 156s is absolutely the right thing to do.

On the contrary, this shows that storing and not repairing them is a choice. How much out there is just as bad, but hasn't been stripped yet? If 20% of that fleet were withdrawn due to being inspected and found unsafe, you would have a point, but that hasn't happened.

It is clearly a 1in 1out type system in operation with plans there to send more 156s off lease after forthcoming cascades.

Even newly refurbished HST stock is heading for the MOD sidings. The crowding problems on these various TOCs could be fixed at relatively little expense (compared to replacing the 550 or so 'unfit' Class 150-156 vehicles) but the current direction is for cheese paring not any sort of quality for the paying passenger.

 

[43066]

There are units in very bad if not worse condition that have been repaired and others still running. There is also plan on there to progressively dump more 156s into store as other stock is cascaded while very recently refurbished HSTs are also being stood down.

It is clear there is a 1 in 1 out (or worse) policy operating in respect of these diesel fleets which means the much reported crowding issues across Northern, Cross Country TfW and EMR will continue, despite the stock to fix them having been built and paid for already.

I can well believe that some of these units are now beyond repair. On the other hand I agree with your criticism of the wider industry approach (as mandated by the DfT) of service and timetable reductions which, as you correctly note, is undoubtedly making overcrowding worse, and the railway less usable.

 

[RailWonderer]

The Anglia 156s, the last of which are with EMR felt draghty for a long time in the winter with all hoppers closed and I always wondered if corrosion had anything to do with it.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

The Anglia 156s, the last of which are with EMR felt draghty for a long time in the winter with all hoppers closed and I always wondered if corrosion had anything to do with it.

It does depend how they're looked after, the trigger broom scenario (only fools and horses) but at present the general idea is to cut costs wherever possible so no one is going to spend a lot of money having them restored

 

[yorksrob]

There are units in very bad if not worse condition that have been repaired and others still running. There is also plan on there to progressively dump more 156s into store as other stock is cascaded while very recently refurbished HSTs are also being stood down.

It is clear there is a 1 in 1 out (or worse) policy operating in respect of these diesel fleets which means the much reported crowding issues across Northern, Cross Country TfW and EMR will continue, despite the stock to fix them having been built and paid for already.

Exactly. This should be a national scandal.

 

[jayah]

I can well believe that some of these units are now beyond repair. On the other hand I agree with your criticism of the wider industry approach (as mandated by the DfT) of service and timetable reductions which, as you correctly note, is undoubtedly making overcrowding worse, and the railway less usable.

It would really be less bad if they looked for service reductions rather than fleet reductions. There are a lot of not very well patronised services out there, paring the train fleets very quickly bites on services that are actually busy.

 

[BJames]

EMR have marked their Intercity services Reservations Compulsory on the upcoming weekend 22/23rd. It is immeasurably annoying as I have some friends wanting to use these services and they think they are sold out. They didn't know they can buy a ticket on the day, or a flexible online, and find an unreserved seat, or stand if there are none. The Trainline app (which most of them use - I have advised of the existence of Trainsplit and some are moving to this, but old habits die hard...) does not make this remotely clear, it looks as if they cannot use these train services at all, which is fully understandable - in rational logic, sold out = sold out!

I am assuming they are using this flag to try and reduce the number of people travelling?

They've said on their website it's one train an hour to and from St Pancras this weekend - if these run as 5 cars that would be highly disappointing and completely unsatisfactory, considering their own website states they are expecting services to be incredibly busy.

 

[bunnahabhain]

EMR have marked their Intercity services Reservations Compulsory on the upcoming weekend 22/23rd. It is immeasurably annoying as I have some friends wanting to use these services and they think they are sold out. They didn't know they can buy a ticket on the day, or a flexible online, and find an unreserved seat, or stand if there are none. The Trainline app (which most of them use - I have advised of the existence of Trainsplit and some are moving to this, but old habits die hard...) does not make this remotely clear, it looks as if they cannot use these train services at all, which is fully understandable - in rational logic, sold out = sold out!

I am assuming they are using this flag to try and reduce the number of people travelling?

They've said on their website it's one train an hour to and from St Pancras this weekend - if these run as 5 cars that would be highly disappointing and completely unsatisfactory, considering their own website states they are expecting services to be incredibly busy.

Capacity is going to be at a premium that weekend as Sheffield are playing in a football game at Wembley, combined with engineering works it's a bit of a toxic combination. Staff were given the heads up to avoid travelling that weekend about a week or two ago. A queuing system is being put in at Pancras. I'd steer well clear of it all!

 

[BJames]

Capacity is going to be at a premium that weekend as Sheffield are playing in a football game at Wembley, combined with engineering works it's a bit of a toxic combination. Staff were given the heads up to avoid travelling that weekend about a week or two ago. A queuing system is being put in at Pancras. I'd steer well clear of it all!

Thanks for this. I couldn't work out what the sporting events were but I forgot to look at Sheffield, I was looking at Notts Forest and Leicester (although I see Leicester are also playing at home). Fortunately, a couple of us are able to travel earlier and I will certainly be going Thursday or Friday down to London and won't be returning until Monday. For the others I'll let them know so they have time to look at other options if it's going to be that hectic! I always try and stay away from St P when it's like that.

 

[Snow1964]

Thanks for this. I couldn't work out what the sporting events were but I forgot to look at Sheffield, I was looking at Notts Forest and Leicester (although I see Leicester are also playing at home). Fortunately, a couple of us are able to travel earlier and I will certainly be going Thursday or Friday down to London and won't be returning until Monday. For the others I'll let them know so they have time to look at other options if it's going to be that hectic! I always try and stay away from St P when it's like that.

For Sheffield to London, the ticket websites usually offer via Doncaster tickets when Midland main line is shut at weekends.

But can force it to do things like via Tamworth, which might be another option for those going to Wembley for FA cup semi-final

 

[liamf656]

It may be annoying but it’s going to be necessary given the projected travellers that weekend. There are a handful of unadvertised services from Sheffield, Chesterfield then direct to London which may help a bit but as mentioned the past few weekends there have been crowd control measures at various stations so it shows that they are being proactive about it