EMR Class 360's

[spotify95]

Great idea in theory... But it's far too tempting to take the 45 minute train than the 65 minute train

It's clear that EMR wants us to use the Connect service when going into London as that's what they're advertising around here, but the savings in time are too good to ignore.

For me, if I was at Kettering, it would be far too tempting to take the 65 minute train, splitting the ticket at a station like Bedford - especially when the 65 minute train gets refurbished, and the 45 minute train has defective windows that block RF signals (windows that do not have such an issue in the 65 minute train). Getting the 45 minute train would also not allow for split ticketing and would therefore be subjecting you to an extra £40+ in rail fares compared to the split ticket.
(Granted, the £40 example was comparing Wellingborough direct to Wellingborough via Bedford, but there can't be much difference between Wellingborough and Kettering's pricing, as both are outside of the former NSE pricing.)

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

especially when the 65 minute train gets refurbished

"When" is an optimistic choice of wording. I'd go with "If" personally.

 

[InTheEastMids]

For me, if I was at Kettering, it would be far too tempting to take the 65 minute train, splitting the ticket at a station like Bedford - especially when the 65 minute train gets refurbished, and the 45 minute train has defective windows that block RF signals (windows that do not have such an issue in the 65 minute train). Getting the 45 minute train would also not allow for split ticketing and would therefore be subjecting you to an extra £40+ in rail fares compared to the split ticket.
(Granted, the £40 example was comparing Wellingborough direct to Wellingborough via Bedford, but there can't be much difference between Wellingborough and Kettering's pricing, as both are outside of the former NSE pricing.)

By the time the 60 minute train has been done up, the 45 minute train will probably be a cracking* new Hitachi unit.

I think the reality is that Kettering travelers may self segment into those that travel slowly and split tickets and those that don't.
A sensible railway would make this official with "Connect only" fares

*Pun intended

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

A sensible railway would make this official with "Connect only" fares

*Pun intended

An illegal railway, unless you changed the laws.
See the ongoing disputes re. premium charges for Gatwick Express by GTR. A TOC cannot charge different fares for their sub-brands.

 

[Spartacus]

An illegal railway, unless you changed the laws.
See the ongoing disputes re. premium charges for Gatwick Express by GTR. A TOC cannot charge different fares for their sub-brands.

Switch Corbys to GTR. Problem solved.

 

[liamf656]

Switch Corbys to GTR. Problem solved.

Absolutely not. The service has been watered down from the previous intercity train with first class and catering to what it is now, if that’s downgraded further to a GTR service with slower service, it would cause a lot more uproar than there already has been

That is unless you’re suggesting that the 360s and current services stay as they are with a change in staffing and rebrand, which I also don’t think would be practical as the current traincrew on the connect service also interwork the intercity service so they would need to rediagram the EMR crew, and if, say, the Kettering traincrew depot were to also move to GTR then staff would need the choice to stay as they are or move to another EMR location, and the GTR staff would need to learn the extra route and traction at quite an expense, and I doubt it’ll be straight forward with current staffing levels

 

[LowLevel]

Absolutely not. The service has been watered down from the previous intercity train with first class and catering to what it is now, if that’s downgraded further to a GTR service with slower service, it would cause a lot more uproar than there already has been

That is unless you’re suggesting that the 360s and current services stay as they are with a change in staffing and rebrand, which I also don’t think would be practical as the current traincrew on the connect service also interwork the intercity service so they would need to rediagram the EMR crew, and if, say, the Kettering traincrew depot were to also move to GTR then staff would need the choice to stay as they are or move to another EMR location, and the GTR staff would need to learn the extra route and traction at quite an expense, and I doubt it’ll be straight forward with current staffing levels

If you wanted to cost cut it and GTR had the spare sets, it would be the ultimate cost cutting option. 8 or 12 car trains, no need for a guard so you could make a load redundant as there isn't practically enough alternative work, only a short extension from Bedford. Through connections towards South London. No different to what happened when some Southern trains were transferred to Thameslink.

However, I don't think it will be likely to happen for mostly political reasons - and obviously I don't agree or approve of it anyway.

It would be naive to suggest it's impossible though.

 

[Mikw]

I frequently travel from Kettering to St Pancras.
It's almost always cheaper on the 360's, and by a large amount if you use split ticketing.

The extra 15 minutes journey time is really put into perspective by the saving.

 

[43066]

it would cause a lot more uproar than there already has been

Has there really been uproar? Quite a few people have complained on here, but the 360s seem pretty well used.

If you wanted to cost cut it and GTR had the spare sets, it would be the ultimate cost cutting option. 8 or 12 car trains, no need for a guard so you could make a load redundant as there isn't practically enough alternative work, only a short extension from Bedford. Through connections towards South London. No different to what happened when some Southern trains were transferred to Thameslink.

However, I don't think it will be likely to happen for mostly political reasons - and obviously I don't agree or approve of it anyway.

It would be naive to suggest it's impossible though.

Highly unlikely to happen, mostly because GTR are too short of stock to realistically use 700s on the route. The 360s would need cameras fitting, crews training up etc.

If it was going to be done the time to do it would have been when Kettering was opened, by making it a GTR location from the start (either a full depot or at least PN + stabling point).

 

[liamf656]

Has there really been uproar? Quite a few people have complained on here, but the 360s seem pretty well used.

There were quite a lot complaints at the start, both online and “on the ground”. Admittedly now there aren’t as many save for the few regulars that want to reiterate it

 

[QSK19]

There were quite a lot complaints at the start, both online and “on the ground”. Admittedly now there aren’t as many save for the few regulars that want to reiterate it

And quite rightly so - I’ve used the personal example of a leaking roof when I took my son on one to Wellingborough last year (360114, I think). But, I think the work at Eastleigh and good familiarity with the stock (remembering that the 360s are the first electric traction that the East Midlands TOC has had) has improved reliability.

I go back to the much-discussed point of an internal refurbishment being the last piece of the jigsaw in order to make them fully fit for the route.

 

[43066]

There were quite a lot complaints at the start, both online and “on the ground”. Admittedly now there aren’t as many save for the few regulars that want to reiterate it

Certainly true that the initial reliability issues went on for longer than they should have done. However over the last 12 months they do seem to have bedded down pretty well.

 

[Spartacus]

Absolutely not. The service has been watered down from the previous intercity train with first class and catering to what it is now, if that’s downgraded further to a GTR service with slower service, it would cause a lot more uproar than there already has been

That is unless you’re suggesting that the 360s and current services stay as they are with a change in staffing and rebrand, which I also don’t think would be practical as the current traincrew on the connect service also interwork the intercity service so they would need to rediagram the EMR crew, and if, say, the Kettering traincrew depot were to also move to GTR then staff would need the choice to stay as they are or move to another EMR location, and the GTR staff would need to learn the extra route and traction at quite an expense, and I doubt it’ll be straight forward with current staffing levels

Oh yeah, it'd be a total transfer of services, rather than using GTR's 700s, though that said it might make them a bit more reliable... more 360 faults already this morning...

 

[InTheEastMids]

An illegal railway, unless you changed the laws.

Agree, however laws are changed all the time. Until recently everybody was expecting new primary legislation for GBR that presumably would have changed quite a few bits of the Railways Act 1993.

I frequently travel from Kettering to St Pancras.
It's almost always cheaper on the 360's, and by a large amount if you use split ticketing.

The extra 15 minutes journey time is really put into perspective by the saving.

This - I think EMR can shift a lot of more price-sensitive travel from Kettering (and it's only Kettering we're talking about) by softly encouraging Bedford splits, making it clear these are not valid on IC services and then policing it. The funny thing is that EMR use Trainline as their ticket agent, and they have now implemented split tickets.

That being said, my experience of the Nottingham intercity services, is not that there are thousands joining at Kettering and wedging the train.
The issue pre-EMR Connect was the cumulative impact of all the stops South of Leicester and Bedford/Luton Airport were the busiest

I go back to the much-discussed point of an internal refurbishment being the last piece of the jigsaw in order to make them fully fit for the route.

A copy/paste of LNR's 350s with 2+2 seating would do the job (hoping - probably in vain - that we can still avoid going off into 10 pages of discussions about seats and door positions... )

 

[Bletchleyite]

A copy/paste of LNR's 350s with 2+2 seating would do the job (hoping - probably in vain - that we can still avoid going off into 10 pages of discussions about seats and door positions... )

I believe that's the intention, give or take that they were going to do it with FISA LEANs instead of Grammer E3000s (but they're very similar seats in comfort terms so most people probably wouldn't notice).

 

[QSK19]

(hoping - probably in vain - that we can still avoid going off into 10 pages of discussions about seats and door positions... )

Mmm, I think that’s going to happen regardless

 

[Mike395]

Maybe I’ve just been unlucky but 50% (4/8) services I’ve been on over the last couple of weeks has been short formed 4 vice 8. The 20:45 this evening - not even a peak service - is full and standing.

Has there been another reliability dip?

 

[Bald Rick]

Maybe I’ve just been unlucky but 50% (4/8) services I’ve been on over the last couple of weeks has been short formed 4 vice 8. The 20:45 this evening - not even a peak service - is full and standing.

Has there been another reliability dip?

You have been unlucky.

All the other diagrams are double units today.

I saw an up peak service this morning, 8 car, some standing in the front coach, spare seats by the third, and almost empty in the rear two.

 

[baz962]

Maybe I’ve just been unlucky but 50% (4/8) services I’ve been on over the last couple of weeks has been short formed 4 vice 8. The 20:45 this evening - not even a peak service - is full and standing.

Has there been another reliability dip?

Not sure on all the units , but one had it's windscreen cracked by some errant birds I believe.

You have been unlucky.

All the other diagrams are double units today.

I saw an up peak service this morning, 8 car, some standing in the front coach, spare seats by the third, and almost empty in the rear two.

The 05.45 from st pancras and it's back working 07.09 from Corby were four car .

 

[Hairy Bear]

Warm weather has brought a surge in units with defective cab air-cons. With little maintenance back up, units are being pulled from service.
The future looks bleak.

 

[liamf656]

Warm weather has brought a surge in units with defective cab air-cons. With little maintenance back up, units are being pulled from service.
The future looks bleak.

The 222s also have this issue, last year was also bad for it

 

[MML]

It looks like 4 of the 6 trains in use today are formed of 4-car units. That's 8 in service out of a fleet of 21. Absolutely diabolical.

Filthy smelly carpets, threadbare upholstery and noisy ineffective air conditioning. And still no sign of the long promised 12-car peak time formations.

I can put up with all the above, but running 4-car formations is completely unacceptable given the high loading on this route.

Where are the other 13 unserviceable units? There is at least 1 sat in the sidings at Cricklewood and we can be sure that isn't receiving any noticeable maintenance.

 

[WesternLancer]

It looks like 4 of the 6 trains in use today are formed of 4-car units. That's 8 in service out of a fleet of 21. Absolutely diabolical.

Filthy smelly carpets, threadbare upholstery and noisy ineffective air conditioning. And still no sign of the long promised 12-car peak time formations.

I can put up with all the above, but running 4-car formations is completely unacceptable given the high loading on this route.

Where are the other 13 unserviceable units? There is at least 1 sat in the sidings at Cricklewood and we can be sure that isn't receiving any noticeable maintenance.

another part of the EMR fleet that has received absolutely none of the interior re fitting that was promised at franchise award... and very little noise from Easy Mid politicians to hassle the DfT about this massive breach of a commitment the DfT promised us would happen. A breach by the Dep of course.

They must have dug out an old Connex 'interior standard' guidance document to operate to.

 

[DBS92042]

It looks like 4 of the 6 trains in use today are formed of 4-car units. That's 8 in service out of a fleet of 21. Absolutely diabolical.

Filthy smelly carpets, threadbare upholstery and noisy ineffective air conditioning. And still no sign of the long promised 12-car peak time formations.

I can put up with all the above, but running 4-car formations is completely unacceptable given the high loading on this route.

Where are the other 13 unserviceable units? There is at least 1 sat in the sidings at Cricklewood and we can be sure that isn't receiving any noticeable maintenance.

There appears to be always at least one at Northampton EMD for maintenance, 360105 being dragged there this morning

 

[QSK19]

another part of the EMR fleet that has received absolutely none of the interior re fitting that was promised at franchise award... and very little noise from Easy Mid politicians to hassle the DfT about this massive breach of a commitment the DfT promised us would happen. A breach by the Dep of course.

They must have dug out an old Connex 'interior standard' guidance document to operate to.

I’ve always been of the opinion that we in EMR land have been subject to a rotten deal when it comes to rolling stock. I think that EMR was a victim of unfortunate timing - its sister franchises, WMR and GA, sorted out their rolling stock plans when quality was a key aspect of procurement; however EMR’s fleet plans came when the DfT started to tighten the purse strings and quality went out of the window. We’ve had to put up with appalling cascades (ex-LNER HST fiasco and 156/9s as pertinent examples) and, as you reflect, fundamental issues still aren’t sorted nearly 4 years later.

Unfortunately, the 360 refurbishment situation is a rather sad state of affairs. Other TOCs seemingly get refurbishments on tap (yes, I know that there are specific reasons behind the Pendo and Northern refurbishments); however, the 360s are in desperate need of interior TLC, yet the DfT won’t even give replacement carpets.

At this rate, I would put money on the EMR brand disappearing before the 360s get refurbished.

 

[WesternLancer]

I’ve always been of the opinion that we in EMR land have been subject to a rotten deal when it comes to rolling stock. I think that EMR was a victim of unfortunate timing - its sister franchises, WMR and GA, sorted out their rolling stock plans when quality was a key aspect of procurement; however EMR’s fleet plans came when the DfT started to tighten the purse strings and quality went out of the window. We’ve had to put up with appalling cascades (ex-LNER HST fiasco and 156/9s as pertinent examples) and, as you reflect, fundamental issues still aren’t sorted nearly 4 years later.

Unfortunately, the 360 refurbishment situation is a rather sad state of affairs. Other TOCs seemingly get refurbishments on tap (yes, I know that there are specific reasons behind the Pendo and Northern refurbishments); however, the 360s are in desperate need of interior TLC, yet the DfT won’t even give replacement carpets.

At this rate, I would put money on the EMR brand disappearing before the 360s get refurbished.

Points well made. and of course when the new EMR inter city stock arrives the rest of the fleet will look even worse in comparison - but I guess their regular interior cleaning standards will soon ensure new stock is 'levelled down'...

 

[QSK19]

Points well made. and of course when the new EMR inter city stock arrives the rest of the fleet will look even worse in comparison - but I guess their regular interior cleaning standards will soon ensure new stock is 'levelled down'...

Yes, at least there would be consistency across the fleet

 

[Wyrleybart]

I’ve always been of the opinion that we in EMR land have been subject to a rotten deal when it comes to rolling stock. I think that EMR was a victim of unfortunate timing - its sister franchises, WMR and GA, sorted out their rolling stock plans when quality was a key aspect of procurement; however EMR’s fleet plans came when the DfT started to tighten the purse strings and quality went out of the window. We’ve had to put up with appalling cascades (ex-LNER HST fiasco and 156/9s as pertinent examples) and, as you reflect, fundamental issues still aren’t sorted nearly 4 years later.

Unfortunately, the 360 refurbishment situation is a rather sad state of affairs. Other TOCs seemingly get refurbishments on tap (yes, I know that there are specific reasons behind the Pendo and Northern refurbishments); however, the 360s are in desperate need of interior TLC, yet the DfT won’t even give replacement carpets.

At this rate, I would put money on the EMR brand disappearing before the 360s get refurbished.

On the contrary, your entire intercity fleet is being replaced with brand new bimode trains. The Regional 156s have all gone in the bin and EMR has clearly been priorotised over other TOCs for standardising (as much as it can) on class 170s and 158s. I don't doubt the 360s are a bit threadbare and not really what customers should expect for journeys into the city, but o nthe whole the wheels are there, they just need interior refurbishment and upgrade.

 

[43066]

The 222s also have this issue, last year was also bad for it

Nowhere near to the same extent, thankfully!

I don't doubt the 360s are a bit threadbare and not really what customers should expect for journeys into the city, but o nthe whole the wheels are there, they just need interior refurbishment and upgrade.

I’m not sure it would really be fair to say the 360s are worse than the Meridian standard class, these days. And at least you can use your phone on them!

 

[QSK19]

On the contrary, your entire intercity fleet is being replaced with brand new bimode trains. The Regional 156s have all gone in the bin and EMR has clearly been priorotised over other TOCs for standardising (as much as it can) on class 170s and 158s. I don't doubt the 360s are a bit threadbare and not really what customers should expect for journeys into the city, but o nthe whole the wheels are there, they just need interior refurbishment and upgrade.

To be fair, when I have aired my grievances about the 360s (and indeed EMR’s rolling stock situation as a whole), I have always emphasised that a lot of the issues are on the non-IC side of things (to quote one of my previous posts, “EMR has never had new non-IC stock”). You’re absolutely right in expressing the fact that the East Midlands TOC has been dealt a decent hand in terms of its IC stock (ex-LNER HST and 180-under-the-frame conditions aside), what with MML getting the Meridians brand new and, from what we know so far, the 810s sound promising.

However, one cannot doubt that the non-IC stock is generally tired and in need of a refresh. I think the 360s are a good, solid train - just with a little TLC and a decent refurbishment, IMO they’ll be what the Connect service needs and deserves