EMR Class 360's

[manu08manu]

I feel like that announcement would work just as:

I think it's better since it doesn't say Luton Airport 3 times in a row.

That is right, but for some reason it is said 3 times. It is like a train service operating inside of a train service.

 

[Edvid]

The current contract between EMR and the DfT (dated 4 October 2022) does include a Class 360 refurbishment programme. It's one of the 2023/24 business plan commitments:

11.1 For the purpose of this Business Plan Commitment:
(a) “Class 360 Fleet” means the units and vehicles identified as being Class 360 in Table 1 (Original Rolling Stock) of Appendix 1 (The Composition of the Train Fleet) to Chapter 4.3 (The Rolling Stock); and (b) “Class 360 Fleet Refurbishment” means the internal refurbishment to be agreed between the Operator, the Secretary of State and the relevant rolling stock leasing company for all of the Class 360 Fleet.
Subject to the provisions and protections of paragraphs 3.1, 4.1 and 5.1 of Chapter 7.8 (Fleet Replacement Programme and Capital Works Programme) (which (for the avoidance of doubt) the Parties acknowledge shall apply following any change to the FRP Assumptions), the Operator shall:
a) by no later than [REDACTED] complete the single option selection for the works required to provide the Class 360 Fleet Refurbishment; and b) in relation to single option selection, incur a maximum expenditure, which does not exceed [REDACTED] in carrying out its obligations under paragraph 11.2(a).

No details on refurbishment specifications or timescales, though. There's also a reference to maintenance facilities in Bedford and Kettering:

13.1 For the purpose of this Business Plan Commitment:
(a) “Bedford Cauldwell Depot” means Bedford Cauldwell Depot, 5B Cauldwell Walk, Bedford, MK42 9DT; (b) “Infrastructure Upgrades” means the works to improve the Class 360 light maintenance capability of Bedford Cauldwell Depot and the installation of hand washing facilities at Kettering Depot sidings; and (c) “Kettering Depot” means Kettering Depot Sidings, Station Road, Kettering, NN15 7HJ.
13.2 Subject to the provisions and protections of paragraphs 3.1, 4.1 and 5.1 of Chapter 7.8 (Fleet Replacement Programme and Capital Works Programme) (which (for the avoidance of doubt) the Parties acknowledge shall apply following any change to the FRP Assumptions), the Operator shall:
(a) by no later than 26 May 2023, achieve completion of the works equivalent to GRIP 6 for the Infrastructure Upgrades; and (b) in delivering this BPC, incur a maximum expenditure which, when added to ERMA Final Part Year Actual Costs incurred in relation to such development and design work, does not exceed [REDACTED] in carrying out its obligations under paragraph 13.2(a).

The lease agreement with Angel Trains expires on 22 August 2027, so the details in post #2951 would imply a 10 or 12-year extension following refurbishment.

Abellio East Midlands Limited 2022 rail contract

Rail contract and ancillary legal documents for Abellio East Midlands railway.

www.gov.uk

 

[spotify95]

Seems like EMR are still struggling to get a basic 12 our of 21 serviceable units, see attached.

When will the Connect service be what we need as East Midlanders?

 

[samuelmorris]

Seems like EMR are still struggling to get a basic 12 our of 21 serviceable units, see attached.

When will the Connect service be what we need as East Midlanders?

I can only assume when the franchise passes to someone else. It's been so long now that the units that replaced the 360s in their original area have bedded in and work quite reliably now, despite the Aventra generally being far less reliable than the Desiro UK. I can't fathom why with only a 57% availability requirement they fall so short after this long.

 

[liamf656]

If I’m right only 10 out of 21 units are in use this afternoon (excluding a double unit that failed). Does anyone know what the problems are that causes such a shortfall?

 

[baz962]

If I’m right only 10 out of 21 units are in use this afternoon (excluding a double unit that failed). Does anyone know what the problems are that causes such a shortfall?

I think there are a lot of air con issues. I was at st pancras the other day and they had to split a set and shunt out and change them round , was Wednesday I think. When I mentioned it to a TM yesterday I was told that a driver was er driving in just her bra . One of them had a reset also on Wednesday as it wasn't working in the coaches. I'm not sure about all of them.

 

[Merle Haggard]

I use both 350s from Northampton and 360s from Wellingborough and the contrast between what are very similar trains is striking. Short forms, total failures and defects (no air con, blown double glazing etc) that allow the train to still run are common on the latter but almost unheard of on the former. If the design is the same, the only reason for a difference must be maintenance. But they're both maintained at Northampton, it's strange.

I don't think the 'the 360s were run down when they came' excuse holds much water after 3 or so years, either.

 

[colchesterken]

I dont think they liked to be moved over to EMR, they were top noch when they were over here in G A land
much better overall than the 321 s, Not as good as the loco hauled mk 3 s

 

[MML]

Northampton appears to do the heavy maintenance but relatively infrequently with a long drag involving diesel traction. The movement is normally via a circuitous route via the North London Line.
Daily maintenance is conducted at Bedford Cauldwell, but facilities are shared with Thameslink.
And then there is stabling at Kettering and Cricklewood, but I suspect cleaning and daily servicing is only conducted at the former. Cricklewood the units just bake in the sun.
I rarely see more than 2 units stabled at each location during the day. It's as if some units are permanently unserviceable and stored elsewhere.
As for the air conditioning, it's noisy and incredibly unreliable. A member of the service team was checking it the other evening, but quite honestly it's knackered with some areas cool and others very hot.

 

[RailWonderer]

I use both 350s from Northampton and 360s from Wellingborough and the contrast between what are very similar trains is striking. Short forms, total failures and defects (no air con, blown double glazing etc) that allow the train to still run are common on the latter but almost unheard of on the former. If the design is the same, the only reason for a difference must be maintenance. But they're both maintained at Northampton, it's strange.

I don't think the 'the 360s were run down when they came' excuse holds much water after 3 or so years, either.

I've used 360s, 450s and 444s countless times in the summer and failing aircon was unheard of. These trains were winning golden spanners and still are. The maintenance regimen at Northampton and Bedford must be poor. For a while they did not have their dedicated areas of the depot so that can't have helped.

 

[WesternLancer]

The general quality of this stock is not v different from the standard achieved with much of the rest of the EMR fleet. Scruffy interiors, poor standards of cleanliness, no heavy investment in much needed refurbs. Sad to say it is a shocking state of affairs from the point of view of the travelling, paying, passenger.

 

[QSK19]

The general quality of this stock is not v different from the standard achieved with much of the rest of the EMR fleet. Scruffy interiors, poor standards of cleanliness, no heavy investment in much needed refurbs. Sad to say it is a shocking state of affairs from the point of view of the travelling, paying, passenger.

Yep fully agree. And as I’ve said before, it’s very frustrating to be seeing refurbishments given out at other TOCs readily yet we can’t get even a light one after 4 years.

I know there are circumstances behind other TOCs’ refurbishments; but for people who aren’t as au fait with the workings of the railways as us on RF, they won’t care: for example, they’ll see a fresh Northern interior and a scruffy EMR one. Unless the EMR one is more favourable in terms of journey times, they’ll pick the Northern one for future journeys.

I don't think the 'the 360s were run down when they came'.

I would beg to differ. I travelled on one unit (I think 114) in its first few months in service at EMR and the roof had a bad leak. It was too intense for it to have been condensation from the air con system.

I can’t imagine this happening unless neglect during the latter days at GA played at least some part.

 

[F Great Eastern]

I would beg to differ. I travelled on one unit (I think 114) in its first few months in service at EMR and the roof had a bad leak. It was too intense for it to have been condensation from the air con system.

I can’t imagine this happening unless neglect during the latter days at GA played at least some part.

The reliability of all legacy stock as it's time in GA came to an end took a massive nosedive.

The 360s went from 84,000 MTIN when they won the Golden Spanner in Dec 2019 Modern Railways to 18,000 just a year later, but they were far from the only GA fleet to see a fall in reliability, it was pretty much fleet wide to be honest at the time.

Other EMU fallers in 12 months included:
- Class 317/6 (down from 12.5k to 10.8k)
- Class 317/3/5/7/8 (down from 12.4k to 9.6k)
- Class 321 (down from 28.5k to 19.5k)
- Class 379 (down from 62k to 38k)

If you remember, before COVID, there was up to 100 short formations a day on the GA network. Covid bailed them out of a massive storm that was coming.

 

[Mikey C]

I think there are a lot of air con issues. I was at st pancras the other day and they had to split a set and shunt out and change them round , was Wednesday I think. When I mentioned it to a TM yesterday I was told that a driver was er driving in just her bra . One of them had a reset also on Wednesday as it wasn't working in the coaches. I'm not sure about all of them.

There's a good clickbait headline to be written about that

 

[STINT47]

One day I will fund out what successive governments have against the East Midlands Railway network but I sure cannot work it out.

You can arrive into one side of St Pancras on a refurbished Javelin and then cross to the other side to take a short formed 20 year old train showing every sign if it's age and no sign if any improvements on the way. To rub it in the Javelins weren't even in that bad condition before they announced a refurbishment.

Rumours say that Greater Anglias latest trains will be cascading over due to replacement before the refurbishment of the 360s start.

 

[QSK19]

One day I will fund out what successive governments have against the East Midlands Railway network but I sure cannot work it out.

You can arrive into one side of St Pancras on a refurbished Javelin and then cross to the other side to take a short formed 20 year old train showing every sign if it's age and no sign if any improvements on the way. To rub it in the Javelins weren't even in that bad condition before they announced a refurbishment.

Rumours say that Greater Anglias latest trains will be cascading over due to replacement before the refurbishment of the 360s start.

You have put my exact thoughts into words. It’s a smack in the gob for us East Midlands travellers to see stock in a condition which we would love to have then get refurbished - the Javelins, the 390s, much of Northern’s stock. The interior of these was in arguably already superior condition and then they receive a refurbishment. We’ve been missed out time and time again - and it makes me think that the DfT have something against us. Silly really given that the Midlands is going to be crucial battleground ahead of the General Election so that the Tories can minimise damage.

The rumour earlier on in this thread of a full 360 refurbishment to the original franchise spec (apart from maybe LEAN seats) subject to them staying until the late 2030s seems to have been a lot of hot air.

Wouldn’t be surprised if the 360s do go without any refurbishment before they’re replaced. God knows what they’ll be like in 20-30 years’ time (because invariably they’ll still be hanging about in the East Mids in the 2040s/2050s!).

Finally, before anybody mentions that the Midland Main Line is receiving brand new stock in due course, I’m specifically addressing non-IC services because not every user of EMR services will benefit from the 810s.

 

[WesternLancer]

You have put my exact thoughts into words. It’s a smack in the gob for us East Midlands travellers to see stock in a condition which we would love to have then get refurbished - the Javelins, the 390s, much of Northern’s stock. The interior of these was in arguably already superior condition and then they receive a refurbishment. We’ve been missed out time and time again - and it makes me think that the DfT have something against us. Silly really given that the Midlands is going to be crucial battleground ahead of the General Election so that the Tories can minimise damage.

The rumour earlier on in this thread of a full 360 refurbishment to the original franchise spec (apart from maybe LEAN seats) subject to them staying until the late 2030s seems to have been a lot of hot air.

Wouldn’t be surprised if the 360s do go without any refurbishment before they’re replaced. God knows what they’ll be like in 20-30 years’ time (because invariably they’ll still be hanging about in the East Mids in the 2040s/2050s!).

Finally, before anybody mentions that the Midland Main Line is receiving brand new stock in due course, I’m specifically addressing non-IC services because not every user of EMR services will benefit from the 810s.

If the promised plans had been enacted at the time they were supposed to be or slightly later due to covid, buy now there would be a smart fleet of 170s, smart fleet of 360s and refreshed Meridians good to last until the 810 commenced. The non LNER HSTs should have been retained a bit longer to meet the IC capacity need which is now blindingly obv (esp off peak).

 

[LLivery]

Kettering vs Wellingborough's next station usage figures will be food for thought. I bet it'll continue to speak volumes.

The sad thing is, despite the timetable which I've made my negative views clear about, I was at least optimistic the fleet would be high quality as 360s were always a very good train and a refurbed one would be even better, especially when the 379s were being rumored.

One day I will fund out what successive governments have against the East Midlands Railway network but I sure cannot work it out.

'Second rate cities and poor ex-factory/mining towns' - it's always felt like the East Midlands hasn't ever been taken seriously. They'll talk all day about the North being left behind, but the East Mids hardly get a mention unless it's Grantham or it's some nonsense from '30p Lee'.

 

[43102EMR]

Rumours say that Greater Anglias latest trains will be cascading over due to replacement before the refurbishment of the 360s start.

Likely wibble, but if it does happen I wouldn’t be complaining - I dislike the 3+2 seating on the 720s, but I’d rather have them than the 360s!

 

[QSK19]

If the promised plans had been enacted at the time they were supposed to be or slightly later due to covid, buy now there would be a smart fleet of 170s, smart fleet of 360s and refreshed Meridians good to last until the 810 commenced. The non LNER HSTs should have been retained a bit longer to meet the IC capacity need which is now blindingly obv (esp off peak).

Spot on. I can understand the delay in terms of the Regional operation, what with the difficult period of short-formed services, cancelled services and the chronic shortage of stock due to the 196 introduction delay; however there is no acceptable reason for not having initiated the refurbishment of the 360s once the first few months of Covid had passed. Even if only one or two of the 21 had been refurbished, at least it would have been a start and a statement of intent to get the rest done.

But alas here we are with tired and scruffy interiors - I remember my then-4 year old daughter asking me “daddy, why are these trains so dirty? They need a good clean”. Speaks volumes even if the youngest travellers are making such comments!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Spot on. I can understand the delay in terms of the Regional operation, what with the difficult period of short-formed services, cancelled services and the chronic shortage of stock due to the 196 introduction delay; however there is no acceptable reason for not having initiated the refurbishment of the 360s once the first few months of Covid had passed. Even if only one or two of the 21 had been refurbished, at least it would have been a start and a statement of intent to get the rest done.

But alas here we are with tired and scruffy interiors - I remember my then-4 year old daughter asking me “daddy, why are these trains so dirty? They need a good clean”. Speaks volumes even if the youngest travellers are making such comments!

And this is why it annoys me that they’re hyping it up. Make your trains an acceptable standard first, and THEN do a big fancy poncey rebrand with cheesy ads and a new website.

 

[WesternLancer]

Spot on. I can understand the delay in terms of the Regional operation, what with the difficult period of short-formed services, cancelled services and the chronic shortage of stock due to the 196 introduction delay; however there is no acceptable reason for not having initiated the refurbishment of the 360s once the first few months of Covid had passed. Even if only one or two of the 21 had been refurbished, at least it would have been a start and a statement of intent to get the rest done.

But alas here we are with tired and scruffy interiors - I remember my then-4 year old daughter asking me “daddy, why are these trains so dirty? They need a good clean”. Speaks volumes even if the youngest travellers are making such comments!

Your daughter is / was spot on too!

 

[Merle Haggard]

Kettering vs Wellingborough's next station usage figures will be food for thought. I bet it'll continue to speak volumes.

Indeed, but bear in mind that Kettering has had working barriers for about a year (?) now and Wellingborough's, although installed at about the same time., are not yet in use. And the conductor-guards rarely ... err ... conduct.

 

[MML]

I find it strange that some of the guards on the 360 are now adopting the can't be bothered doing ticket inspection attitude. To be fair, EMR are pretty hot on revenue protection and most do a ticket inspection in the unit in which they travel. But there is a now a growing hard core of 4 or 5 who never use the opportunity to inspect tickets in the 20 minutes between Luton Airport Parkway and St Pancras.
And never venture out of the cab unless it's to change ends when terminating.

 

[ChrisC]

Wouldn’t be surprised if the 360s do go without any refurbishment before they’re replaced. God knows what they’ll be like in 20-30 years’ time (because invariably they’ll still be hanging about in the East Mids in the 2040s/2050s!).

Finally, before anybody mentions that the Midland Main Line is receiving brand new stock in due course, I’m specifically addressing non-IC services because not every user of EMR services will benefit from the 810s.

I also wouldn‘t be surprised if on the regional side all the 170’s with the various tatty interiors now remain with EMR for the next 20 years. When they eventually are life expired, places like the West Midlands and East Anglia will get more new trains and the East Midlands will once again get their old trains. It also happened when Central Trains was broken up with all the old 153’s and 158’s which EMT inherited.

I know that the MML is getting the brand new 810’s, although typically probably not quite enough of them. When people complain about the old tatty 170’s and 360’s and the East Midlands never getting new trains, we will just have it pointed out to us that the East Midlands has just had a lot of new trains with the 810’s.

 

[LowLevel]

I also wouldn‘t be surprised if on the regional side all the 170’s with the various tatty interiors now remain with EMR for the next 20 years. When they eventually are life expired, places like the West Midlands and East Anglia will get more new trains and the East Midlands will once again get their old trains. It also happened when Central Trains was broken up with all the old 153’s and 158’s which EMT inherited.

I know that the MML is getting the brand new 810’s, although typically probably not quite enough of them. When people complain about the old tatty 170’s and 360’s and the East Midlands never getting new trains, we will just have it pointed out to us that the East Midlands has just had a lot of new trains with the 810’s.

To be fair the tatty 170s are a big upgrade over a 153 or 156 and probably a 158 too

The Regional services would never justify their own brand new fleet unless piggy backed like Anglia.

The 360s are a different matter and to this day I think they should either have waited for the 379s which were in better nick and more flexible. That bring said they'd probably still have struggled with lack of depot facilities.

 

[Energy]

That bring said they'd probably still have struggled with lack of depot facilities.

Lack of depot and too many. Only 6 sets are needed, the 21 360s are perfect for 12-car operation with 3 spare. Well they'd be perfect is they got refurbished and hadn't left Anglia in such a poor mechanical state.

 

[Mzzzs]

Every time I travel with EMR apart from the worn-out interior I think can they not give the trains a clean in and out or does that now require the dft to approve now

I do wonder if EMR can run 4 and 8-car trains on Corby services they always seem so empty after Luton airport

Emr guards bearly go around the train when I am on so no surprise they really don't do much other than sit In cab

 

[LLivery]

Indeed, but bear in mind that Kettering has had working barriers for about a year (?) now and Wellingborough's, although installed at about the same time., are not yet in use. And the conductor-guards rarely ... err ... conduct.

Fair point. My ticket was always checked during EMT & MML. Can't say it always is now.

 

[cnjb8]

To be fair the tatty 170s are a big upgrade over a 153 or 156 and probably a 158 too

The Regional services would never justify their own brand new fleet unless piggy backed like Anglia.

The 360s are a different matter and to this day I think they should either have waited for the 379s which were in better nick and more flexible. That bring said they'd probably still have struggled with lack of depot facilities.

EMR doesn't need a brand new regional fleet, it needs its 158/170/360 fleet deep cleaned and refurbished inside desperately