EMR December 2020 Timetable Consultation

[43074]

EMR have published it's proposals for December 2020. The main change is the introduction of the electric services between London and Corby, and on the Regional side Derby to Nottingham increasing to 4tph (2tph XC and 2 EMR) by extending Crewe services to Newark Castle instead of the Matlock services, which will continue to run through to Nottingham.

I don't know how much of the information in the consultation we didn't know already but the opportunity to view the proposals and respond to the consultation is on the link below:
https://www.eastmidlandsrailway.co.uk/december2020

 

[LowLevel]

Also Leicester to Lincoln running through to Grimsby each second hour and the withdrawal of the Erewash (Alfreton and Langley Mill) London services. Reading between the lines the 0835 Nottingham to Norwich (1L04) will start back from Sheffield instead, the evening services being replaced by the much improved (when they turn up) Northern service. The 2137ish ECS Manchester to Notts also becomes a service train.

Scarborough confirmed to be in the bin after next year but York services continuing.

 

[High Dyke]

Proposals for increasing services across Lincolnshire won't count for much if they haven't engaged Network Rail in dialogue, especially with regards to resourcing more signallers for signalling locations. An improved all year round Sunday service cannot be delivered with the current staffing levels on routes such as the Skegness line.

 

[InTheEastMids]

Quite a few errors in the document. Missing pictures, apparently Bedford passengers get XXXXed and loving the random mention of LEEDS on page 30

As expected, Kettering becomes the main interchange to link up the outer suburban and inter city services.

In general this looks like an improvement for most passengers although obviously some losers eg Wellingborough to Leicester/Sheffield. And no intercity stops for Luton Airport.

I note the 360s will be pressed into service in their current state and then refurbished, reflecting I guess the reality that Anglia don't have their replacements

 

[tbtc]

Good news for Kettering anyhow - four trains per hour to London (two of which are non-stop)?

The reference to "Leeds" on page thirty looks like a bit of an afterthought though!

 

[Ianno87]

Quite a few errors in the document. Missing pictures, apparently Bedford passengers get XXXXed and loving the random mention of LEEDS on page 30

Amusing suggestions for the 4 letter word masked by XXXX on a postcard, please.

 

[Kite159]

Also Leicester to Lincoln running through to Grimsby each second hour and the withdrawal of the Erewash (Alfreton and Langley Mill) London services. Reading between the lines the 0835 Nottingham to Norwich (1L04) will start back from Sheffield instead, the evening services being replaced by the much improved (when they turn up) Northern service. The 2137ish ECS Manchester to Notts also becomes a service train.

Scarborough confirmed to be in the bin after next year but York services continuing.

Which is a surprise, I would have imagined both Scarborough and the daily York service would have been binned. Seems to be a waste of an unit as it sits in the York area most of the day, and it's not like there is no alternative services for Sheffield - Doncaster - York.

---------------

Can I grab the popcorn for when the Wellingborough/Kettering commuters kick off about being reduced to 3+2 commuter EMUs when paying Intercity prices?

 

[swt_passenger]

Good news for Kettering anyhow - four trains per hour to London (two of which are non-stop)?

The reference to "Leeds" on page thirty looks like a bit of an afterthought though!

I see that the only other mention of the word “Leeds” (there are only 2) is on the route map - it isn’t mentioned in any text. For some while I’d wondered whether it would even be served, especially once the HSTs are gone...

 

[43074]

As expected, Kettering becomes the main interchange to link up the outer suburban and inter city services.

In general this looks like an improvement for most passengers although obviously some losers eg Wellingborough to Leicester/Sheffield. And no intercity stops for Luton Airport.

Yes indeed, at least they seem to recognise this - Page 28 says "In the morning peak, the connection time for passengers travelling from Luton, Bedford or Wellingborough to Nottingham is likely to be a little over 30 minutes in some instances", which is concerning given the number of people who do travel North from the intermediate stations on trains like the 0704 from London. Looks like 9 minute connections Northbound and 15 minute connections Southbound will be the standard connection times off peak.

 

[Ianno87]

I see that the only other mention of the word “Leeds” (there are only 2) is on the route map - it isn’t mentioned in any text. For some while I’d wondered whether it would even be served, especially once the HSTs are gone...

Yes, Leeds is rather conspicuous by its absence. I'd have expected a firm statement to say either 'Leeds services remain roughly as-is' or 'Leeds services will no longer operate'

Which is a surprise, I would have imagined both Scarborough and the daily York service would have been binned. Seems to be a waste of an unit as it sits in the York area most of the day, and it's not like there is no alternative services for Sheffield - Doncaster - York.

---------------

Can I grab the popcorn for when the Wellingborough/Kettering commuters kick off about being reduced to 3+2 commuter EMUs when paying Intercity prices?

Wouldn't be surprised if York is a nice little ORCATS earner from Saturday leisure flows...

 

[Kite159]

Wouldn't be surprised if York is a nice little ORCATS earner from Saturday leisure flows...

One train a day, for any "any permitted" Sheffield - York tickets I dare say EMR would get hardly anything under Orcats, the bulk going to XC, then TPE/LNER/Northern getting their cut.

 

[tbtc]

In general this looks like an improvement for most passengers although obviously some losers eg Wellingborough to Leicester/Sheffield. And no intercity stops for Luton Airport.

To Leicester maybe, but there's nothing from Wellingborough to Sheffield between 07:12 and 19:20 at the moment so I'm guessing any prospective passengers are used to changing en route already? (I appreciate it goes up to a second change but it's not as if a regular direct Sheffield service is being cut)

Can I grab the popcorn for when the Wellingborough/Kettering commuters kick off about being reduced to 3+2 commuter EMUs when paying Intercity prices?

Kettering passengers are getting two non-stop services per hour to St Pncras with 2+2 seats though (as well as the half hourly twelve coach EMU)?

Which is a surprise, I would have imagined both Scarborough and the daily York service would have been binned. Seems to be a waste of an unit as it sits in the York area most of the day, and it's not like there is no alternative services for Sheffield - Doncaster - York.

It is a ridiculously long dwell there. Whilst I'm all for good services from Sheffield, it does seem an anomaly. IF it's there to take pressure off XC then it needs to run via Leeds (or maybe they could stop it at Pontefract and get rid of the pointless Northern box ticker?)

I see that the only other mention of the word “Leeds” (there are only 2) is on the route map - it isn’t mentioned in any text. For some while I’d wondered whether it would even be served, especially once the HSTs are gone...

I guess it could be that they are waiting on sorting out where the IET300s are to be based before they commit to anything north of Sheffield? So they don't want to mention Leeds much now, if it's something that they might have to bin in a couple of years (but might not)? Dunno

 

[Kite159]

Kettering passengers are getting two non-stop services per hour to St Pncras with 2+2 seats though (as well as the half hourly twelve coach EMU)?

Which will probably be busy, so it will be a case of weighing up the options of standing in a vestibule for ~ 40 minutes or sitting on 3+2 seats for ~ 50 minutes.

 

[swt_passenger]

I guess it could be that they are waiting on sorting out where the IET300s are to be based before they commit to anything north of Sheffield? So they don't want to mention Leeds much now, if it's something that they might have to bin in a couple of years (but might not)? Dunno

Not a bad theory, really. Just sort of stay neutral...

 

[222001]

Which is a surprise, I would have imagined both Scarborough and the daily York service would have been binned. Seems to be a waste of an unit as it sits in the York area most of the day, and it's not like there is no alternative services for Sheffield - Doncaster - York.

The DFT specified York services in the TSR, but not the Scarborough extensions. So they're only running it because they've been told to.

 

[sheff1]

I see they believe Sheffield is in the East Midlands, which will come as a surprise to those who consider themselves to be proud Yorkshire folk.

Agree that the York service is a waste of a unit. Not really sure why DfT specified it when there are two XC trains an hour from/to Derby, Chesterfield & Sheffield.

 

[Killingworth]

Amusing suggestions for the 4 letter word masked by XXXX on a postcard, please.

As one who used to travel regularly from Chesterfield to Bedford on business I sometimes found going south to come back north was helpful, but with this timetabling suggestion it seems changing strategies for travel between Bedford from the north will be crucial. A shame because the offices I'd be visiting were located to Bedford because it had the new electric services for London, but more importantly the fast services going on to Sheffield and Nottingham. Most times I caught them requiring no changes.

 

[dk1]

0835 Nottingham to Norwich (1L04) will start back from Sheffield instead, the evening services being replaced by the much improved (when they turn up) Northern service. The 2137ish ECS Manchester to Notts also becomes a service train.

Scarborough confirmed to be in the bin after next year but York services continuing.

That all makes sense apart from the continuation of the York. Don't get me wrong I'm all for it but cannot get my head around how can be justified commercially.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

No more Scarborough from 2021. Page 30

Will weekend services still extend to York and Scarborough?

We plan to continue Saturday and Sunday services to York, but will not be extending services to Scarborough from 2021.

wasn’t Leeds mentioned in the franchise map? Scarborough wasn’t and it was mentioned both York and Leeds would be retained in the future.

 

[222001]

wasn’t Leeds mentioned in the franchise map? Scarborough wasn’t and it was mentioned both York and Leeds would be retained in the future.

Leeds wasn't in the TSR, so if it's being retained, that will be a decision Abellio made in their bid. The lack of a mention of Leeds services surely means they're going in the bin?

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Leeds wasn't in the TSR, so if it's being retained, that will be a decision Abellio made in their bid. The lack of a mention of Leeds services surely means they're going in the bin?

Scarborough saw no mention on the franchise map nor the TSR and is being axed. Leeds was not mentioned in TSR but was mentioned in the franchise map.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

I’ve contacted them to ask

 

[Aictos]

Those EMR Electrics, are they planned to be 12 car all day or just in peaks?

Regardless they will give a massive uplift in capacity from a 4 or 4 car Class 222!

 

[222001]

Scarborough saw no mention on the franchise map nor the TSR and is being axed. Leeds was not mentioned in TSR but was mentioned in the franchise map.

I still don't see why they'd run to Leeds unless they were forced too. There won't be an operational reason to go there anymore.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

London - Leeds and York
Benefits include:

• there will continue to be a limited extension of London St Pancras - Sheffield service to provide a direct service to London from:
  • York, at weekends, and
  • Leeds
• brand-new 125mph trains will be introduced on the York service in 2022 with:
  • more reliable service
  • improved comfort
  • passenger information system
  • free on-board Wi-Fi
  • at-seat power sockets
  • USB points
  • air conditioning
  • tables at all seats
  • increased luggage space
  • on-board cycle storage

from the franchise map

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

York has been retained no reason to think Leeds won’t be

 

[222001]

York has been retained no reason to think Leeds won’t be

Another clue to Leeds going is the removal of Alfreton and Langley Mill services from December 2020. These are currently served by the Nottingham extensions that start at Leeds.

 

[Ianno87]

Another clue to Leeds going is the removal of Alfreton and Langley Mill services from December 2020. These are currently served by the Nottingham extensions that start at Leeds.

Hmm, not necessarily. It may mean those Nottingham extensions are simply resourced from Etches Park/wherever as they no longer have a need to originate from Leeds (Neville Hill) for maintenance if the HSTs are going.

It could be that a couple of Sheffield starters still need to come from Leeds if that is where suitable servicing/stabling provision is located.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

It’s confirmed:

I asked EMR whether they planned to keep Leeds services they said:

According to our franchise agreement we will be continue to run services to and from Leeds

It is a franchise requirement when they were awarded it.

 

[222001]

It’s confirmed:

I asked EMR whether they planned to keep Leeds services they said:

It is a franchise requirement when they were awarded it.

Interesting. They must be extensions of Sheffield services instead. I'm wondering if it's an Etches Park space issue - keep a few units stabled at Neville Hill overnight, and free up a bit of space at Etches Park.