End of the line for return rail tickets

[High Dyke]

As I read this thread there won't be a physical ticket to collect. It will either be on a contactless card of some kind or your mobile phone.

We're already seeing campaigns by various social groups regarding ticket office closures and staffing of trains. Does that sort of proposal negate some people from using trains, i.e. those that aren't tech savvy, have a suitable mobile phone or may struggle with technology?

The concept of simplifying rail fares is welcomed, but it has got to be a system that should benefit the user not the supplier.

 

[Starmill]

It could be less, but it could also be more, couldn't it?

The chances of an Advance ticket being available on the day that would cost less in sum than the Off Peak Return level are very slim, yes absolutely. Also many trains, especially those to and from Edinburgh, will not have any Advance availability on the day at all. But then that's the predictable outcome generally with this.

 

[ar10642]

(CDR) fares which are likely under severe threat from these proposals.

If that's really what this means I doubt many will use the train.

For example Haywards Heath to Eastbourne off peak return is currently £15.80 which is already quite a lot compared to driving.

Single is £15.30 so will they now want £30.60 for *one* person to make this off peak journey? That's an absolutely ridiculous price! Who would pay that?

Or am I misunderstanding this?

 

[Peter0124]

No, you're not. Privs are digital these days and have been for some time.

The e-tickets aren't available for Scotrail services sadly.

 

[185]

Agree with several posters. Fare rises by stealth.

so, £3.80 single or £4 return
- will become 2 x £2 singles

Will mean all the £3.80 revenue they got from a single now becomes £2.

"OMG loss of £1.80... panic"

= Single then becomes £4.
Return is now £8.

Rishi "i have no working class friends"

With the major implications of this matter, I believe this belongs in the main general discussion thread.

 

[Rail Ranger]

Today Avanti are giving the misleading impression that the cheapest single fare between Piccadilly and Euston on some trains is an Advance single at £93.60 when the walk up single is £68.60. Presumably DfT is condoning this.

Journey Planner - Trains Times and Fares - National Rail Enquiries

The gateway to Britain's National Rail network. A portal into UK rail travel including train company information and promotions; train times; fares enquiries; ticket purchase and train running information.

ojp.nationalrail.co.uk

 

[Starmill]

If that's really what this means I doubt many will use the train.

For example Haywards Heath to Eastbourne off peak return is currently £15.80 which is already quite a lot compared to driving.

Single is £15.30 so will they now want £30.60 for *one* person to make this off peak journey? That's an absolutely ridiculous price! Who would pay that?

Or am I misunderstanding this?

We don't know what the new price levels will actually be yet. I'd say this kind of ~100% rise is the reasonable worst case scenario.

 

[JonathanH]

You just know that they're just going to take the current off peak single fare and make you buy that twice, which will make the already high fares in the SE even more unattractive vs cost of fuel.

There is no evidence of that on the current Oyster / Contactless extensions, although the PAYG trial in the Bristol area set the single fares at the level of half the off-peak (period) return, rather than the off-peak day return, as set out below. This has an overlay to maintain off-peak day return fares.

There is a detailed discussion of the ground work done in the Bristol area in this blog post, which I can't fully reproduce.
https://blog.brfares.com/2021/04/29/bristol-payg-fares-reform/

Bristol Area Pay-as-you-go Scheme – the first serious attempt at fares reform?

While seemingly everyone has been busily debating the amount of discount that the long-hyped (but yet to appear) new flexible carnet fares might provide, something much more radical is about to happen in the Bristol area from 16 May.

Great Western Railway (GWR)’s direct franchise award with the Department for Transport (DfT) from 29 March last year commits it to introduce a Pay-as-you-go (PAYG) scheme for the Bristol “travel to work” area, i.e. bounded by Ashchurch for Tewkesbury, Patchway, Severn Beach, Weston-super-Mare, Bath Spa and Chippenham by January 2022, and also then to make plans for a Devon & Cornwall PAYG scheme.

I was previously a bit skeptical about the practicalities of this as, based on the experience with previous PAYG schemes, there has not been much effort to reform or simplify the “traditional” fares; generally a further layer has just been added on top, introducing further complexity, e.g. as with the extension of the London Contactless Fares Scheme to the Thames Valley at the start of last year.

 

[CyrusWuff]

We don't know what the new price levels will actually be yet. I'd say this kind of ~100% rise is the reasonable worst case scenario.

I suspect TOC Pricing Teams don't know what the new price levels will actually be yet either, given they've been finishing off the delayed "January" fares round!

 

[Peter0124]

I suppose a nice benefit of this, is you get to do triangular journeys (aka 3 singles).

Eg Manchester - Stoke
Stoke - Crewe
Crewe - Manchester

 

[Hadders]

Since Covid haven't we seen quite a balancing between the previously highly skewed peak Vs off peak demand? In which case isn't it fair to balance fares accordingly?

Consider Manchester to London. Current fares:

Anytime Return £369.40
Off Peak Return £98.10

Anytime Single £184.70
Off Peak Single £68.60

What should the new Anytime and Off Peak Single fares be? Bear in mind many more people travel at Off Peak times than at Peak times. I could live with it if the Anytime Single was £184.70 and the Off Peak Single £49.05 but you just know that this won't happen. The Off Peak single will be at least £68.60 and I could honestly wee them making the Anytime something like £150 and the Off Peak £85. This would be sold as 'simple' but in reality it would be an absolutely huge price increase.

Then for an added sting in the tail they would add evening restrictions into London when there currently aren't any.

 

[yorkie]

If that's really what this means I doubt many will use the train.

For example Haywards Heath to Eastbourne off peak return is currently £15.80 which is already quite a lot compared to driving.

Single is £15.30 so will they now want £30.60 for *one* person to make this off peak journey? That's an absolutely ridiculous price! Who would pay that?

Or am I misunderstanding this?

It won't be that bad; they may half the period return fares. They may also reduce the range of fares available so that some people pay more. They may introduce evening peak restrictions. All of these things are bad, and there is precedent for each of these in existing single leg pricing trials.

 

[Watershed]

For most people trips out start and end at home, requiring a return journey. In that context, please explain how "single leg pricing could make the railway much more attractive" when what most customers want to buy is a return journey.

It's not about the niche market of triangular journeys, but rather about allowing people to travel out at peak times and back at off-peak times (or vice versa) without having to pay for an Anytime (Day) Return which is essentially wasted on the outward/return journey.

Of course, the Treasury won't let this happen without getting their pound of flesh, and so you can expect the single fares to be significantly more than half the current return. There will also likely be more time restrictions.

Or they would use Advance tickets, which are also available on the day.

You seem to have convieniently missed the fact that Advance tickets are avaulable until departure meaning that there is no need to buy your return half until you know exactly what train you wish to travel on even if that means buying at the station as you arrive to travel. In this way the fare paid could be much less than the current return.

They might be available on the day, at the discretion of the relevant operator, but there is no guarantee of their availability - and thus they cannot in any way be deemed an acceptable substitute for a regulated fare.

The fare paid could be much less than the current return but in all likelihood it will be much more at popular times. The likes of LNER have been desperate for years to get rid of the effective cap that the existence of a Super Off-Peak and Off-Peak fare imposes on the level of Advances. This change will allow them to charge much more for busy trains.

Again you could buy an Advance each way , forget the difference between Advance and Walk Up fares and just think of every journey having a wider range of fares available until departure.

Unless there is to be a guarantee of Advance availability (which of course there won't be) it would be dangerous to think that way.

I suppose a nice benefit of this, is you get to do triangular journeys (aka 3 singles).

Eg Manchester - Stoke
Stoke - Crewe
Crewe - Manchester

Very much a niche benefit, but yes.

 

[nw1]

Knowing the current government and their general outlook on things (cut costs, raise prices, and damn the consequences), I would not be in the least surprised if this means higher fares for passengers.

 

[Bread & cheese]

1 I suspect that returns would in fact only be abolished for longer distance journeys, and that day returns would be kept for shorter journeys (where they are currently available).
2 People are being pessimistic about pricing. Would there really be the introduction of a pricing structure that led to large increases for many people?
3 That said, I'd rather keep flexible return tickets. Returning from Scotland not long ago on LNER, I found that the train I was booked on was cancelled, and there was further disruption due to cable theft. My hosts kindly let me stay another day, I had a return ticket, so I only needed to get a new reservation. Simple.

 

[VC00]

1 I suspect that returns would in fact only be abolished for longer distance journeys, and that day returns would be kept for shorter journeys (where they are currently available).
2 People are being pessimistic about pricing. Would there really be the introduction of a pricing structure that led to large increases for many people?
3 That said, I'd rather keep flexible return tickets. Returning from Scotland not long ago on LNER, I found that the train I was booked on was cancelled, and there was further disruption due to cable theft. My hosts kindly let me stay another day, I had a return ticket, so I only needed to get a new reservation. Simple.

3. Assuming the prices only go down by half then you could buy the ticket on the day for the same price (unless it's an advance)

 

[Sleepy]

So tommorow Norwich to London you can buy Advance single on 0803 service for £32 and come back at 1500 for £36. A off peak return costs £62.10. An off peak single is £61, will it be reduced to £31.05 ? Highly unlikely !! (There is also currently a promotional £20 day return available too only via GA website) They also sell Advance on the day for £60.10 - great value ?!?

 

[TreacleMiller]

The e-tickets aren't available for Scotrail services sadly.

Ouch, sorry forgot it was still 1996 up there..

 

[alistairlees]

Ouch, sorry forgot it was still 1996 up there..

They (eTickets on ScotRail flows) will be available in a few months.

 

[duncanp]

Hmm. Take Birmingham to Manchester. I often travel up to Manc after work (about 5pm) for some drinks with friends, returning the same night. Before my railcard the prices are £43.40 Off Peak Return and £99.10 Anytime Return.

So for people like me travelling up in the evening (rush hour but not “peak”) will the return journey stay at £43? I doubt it - much more likely is a price rise by stealth and it’d end up being £50 + £20.

Unless we do away with the evening peak entirely, across the whole country... now that’d be “simple”

Talking of Birmingham to Manchester, if you are travelling in the peak and coming back the same day, you can save a fortune by split ticketing at Stafford.

An Anytime Day Return from Birmingham New Street to Stafford is £15.20, and from Stafford to Manchester Piccadilly is £29.00. Total cost £44.20 as opposed to the Anytime Return of £99.10

All the Cross Country Trains from Birmingham to Manchester stop at Stafford, so this combination of tickets is valid for the through journey.

But an Anytime Day Single from Birmingham to Stafford is £12.70, and from Stafford to Manchester it is £28.90.

So if this reform was implemented would the cost of the anytime single from Birmingham to Stafford and Stafford to Manchester respectively go down to £7.60 and £14.45? (Half the current cost of a return)

There are so many unknowns about this proposal that it is impossible to judge whether it will be advantageous to passengers or not.

 

[Worldwide]

Story in the Telegraph today, not yet available online but it has made the front page (amongst the lettuce and the balloon):



Big news seems to be:

• GBR will still go ahead
• Single-leg pricing being rolled out across the network?
• Commitment to Project Oval and possible ending of CCST?

They say GBR is still going ahead however Network Rail are strangely changing their registered address in March.

 

[yorkie]

1 I suspect that returns would in fact only be abolished for longer distance journeys, and that day returns would be kept for shorter journeys (where they are currently available).

More split ticketing opportunities then!

2 People are being pessimistic about pricing. Would there really be the introduction of a pricing structure that led to large increases for many people?

It has already been demonstrated that singles may not be half the price of day returns and that the full existing range of super off peak, off peak and anytime will be available on relevant flows.

3 That said, I'd rather keep flexible return tickets. Returning from Scotland not long ago on LNER, I found that the train I was booked on was cancelled, and there was further disruption due to cable theft. My hosts kindly let me stay another day, I had a return ticket, so I only needed to get a new reservation. Simple.

Indeed, returns are simpler than some proponents of 'simplification' will admit!

Talking of Birmingham to Manchester, if you are travelling in the peak and coming back the same day, you can save a fortune by split ticketing at Stafford.

An Anytime Day Return from Birmingham New Street to Stafford is £15.20, and from Stafford to Manchester Piccadilly is £29.00. Total cost £44.20 as opposed to the Anytime Return of £99.10

All the Cross Country Trains from Birmingham to Manchester stop at Stafford, so this combination of tickets is valid for the through journey.

But an Anytime Day Single from Birmingham to Stafford is £12.70, and from Stafford to Manchester it is £28.90.

So if this reform was implemented would the cost of the anytime single from Birmingham to Stafford and Stafford to Manchester respectively go down to £7.60 and £14.45? (Half the current cost of a return)

There are so many unknowns about this proposal that it is impossible to judge whether it will be advantageous to passengers or not.

Indeed; unless there are well proportioned reductions in many fares across the board, almost whatever happens, passengers will be better off purchasing on split ticket websites.

In reality the Government is not going to want to reduce fares, meaning many fares would increase, if there is any attempt at 'harmonising' fares.

They (eTickets on ScotRail flows) will be available in a few months.

Including Super Off Peak?

Knowing the current government and their general outlook on things (cut costs, raise prices, and damn the consequences), I would not be in the least surprised if this means higher fares for passengers.

I fully expect the best value fares to go up as a result of any meddling / policy changes, yes.

 

[duncanp]

Indeed; unless there are well proportioned reductions in many fares across the board, almost whatever happens, passengers will be better off purchasing on split ticket websites.

Unless of course the government abolishes the concept of split ticketing.

Although quite how they would do that I don't know.

Train staff would not be able to stop someone with a ticket from A - B and B - C getting off at B rather than continuing to C.

Neither is it feasible to make sure that (A-B) + (B-C) = (A-C) in all cases, so that split ticketing becomes irrelevant.

 

[TimG]

Indeed.

A passenger from Leeds who arrives into Kings Cross around 1030 and departs around 1830 is now over 87 quid out of pocket, due to the LNER single fares trial (at least they would be if they simply asked at a ticket office or bought on the LNER website; savvy people who use a split ticketing site such as the forum's, or asked for a ticket from somewhere like Burley Park, would avoid being mugged off)

However I am sure the singles fare trial conclusion will ignore such passengers and conclude that 'simplifying' the range of fares is a great idea; let's face it, we all knew the likely outcome of this trial before it even began.

This is true... but I welcome the introduction of greater evening peak restrictions. We need to get more out of the infrastructure we have and that means pushing demand to different times of day.

 

[DailyCommuter]

If that's really what this means I doubt many will use the train.

For example Haywards Heath to Eastbourne off peak return is currently £15.80 which is already quite a lot compared to driving.

Single is £15.30 so will they now want £30.60 for *one* person to make this off peak journey? That's an absolutely ridiculous price! Who would pay that?

Or am I misunderstanding this?

It'll depend on how the singles are price, as £15.30 is the Anytime single, so will there be a new Off-Peak single?

For example when single leg pricing for Contactless in the Thames Valley was introduced, there are Peak and Off-Peak single fares, so Reading - London has a Peak Contactless at half the Anytime Day Return and Off Peak Contactless at half the Off-Peak Day Return.

 

[TimG]

Unless of course the government abolishes the concept of split ticketing.

Although quite how they would do that I don't know.

Train staff would not be able to stop someone with a ticket from A - B and B - C getting off at B rather than continuing to C.

Neither is it feasible to make sure that (A-B) + (B-C) = (A-C) in all cases, so that split ticketing becomes irrelevant.

Make all tickets a function of distance and time of day.

 

[blackpoolsouth]

The whole split ticket scam needs stopping anyway so don't be surprised if these bargains like the aforementioned Birmingham option bite the dust

If you are on a contactless card/ ITSO surely you would need to tap in / out

Ahhh see now where they've got you

 

[Halwynd]

Over the past few months I've read about various ticketing proposals including closing ticket offices, scrapping TOD etc. - and now this lulu: scrapping return tickets. It's almost like a competition for Sales Prevention Officers to come up with the best policy designed to discourage as many people as possible from travelling by rail.

Given the Conservative Party's record on railway policy since privatisation, does anyone really expect the passenger to benefit from any of this?

 

[yorkie]

Make all tickets a function of distance and time of day.

Feel free to make your proposals in the speculative discussion section; once posted I will have some questions regarding how this could be done

The whole split ticket scam needs stopping anyway...

I don't think it can, but if you can think of a way to do it, please do post in the speculative discussion section as I'd be interested to see how it could be done.

If you are on a contactless card/ ITSO surely you would need to tap in / out

That is indeed the case for many journeys already (especially those involving the mixed-mode premium, or for travel contra-peak)

 

[Watershed]

The whole split ticket scam needs stopping anyway so don't be surprised if these bargains like the aforementioned Birmingham option bite the dust

If you are on a contactless card/ ITSO surely you would need to tap in / out

Ahhh see now where they've got you

How is split ticketing a "scam"?

I cannot see e-tickets being scrapped, given how popular it is; as long as that is around, you cannot realistically prevent split ticketing.