Energy price rises and price cap discussion.

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I don't think there's much they can do short term bar another massive load of inflation by printing money and giving it to people. Though they could put the NI increase on hold for example. They could also make small tax related changes e.g. increasing the allowance to be out of tax completely for the low paid, paid for by bringing the higher rate to upper rate boundary down a bit.

But what they could do would be a mid-long term plan of funding massive insulation programmes and easing conservation area/listed building regs for work purely related to energy efficiency. Energy won't get cheaper, so we need to use less, and many houses (particularly Victorian terraces) waste it like there's no tomorrow (if they carry on, there won't be a tomorrow). Also include DIY work in the funding (e.g. if I go to Wickes for a roll of loft insulation it should be simply given to me free) as that saves money and makes it more likely to get done with a trades shortage. And force landlords to do it.

When we moved into our newly-built home in 2020, one of six on a small exclusive settlement, all updated insulation came as part and parcel of the build. The previous property we lived in from 2004 to 2020 was a 18th century estate managers home that once was part of the estate of a hall in Cheshire East. I must have spent a small fortune over the years updating the types of required building insulation.

Since Patricia died last November, I potter around on my own as a typical 77 year-old, not using much energy.

 

[yorksrob]

Looking at https://assets.publishing.service.g...nt_data/file/1094421/DUKES_2022_Chapter_4.pdf less than half of our gas is supplied from the North Sea. So you could potentially stop some of the increase, but still have to pay the market rate for the rest.
Bear in mind that even before Rishi's Windfall Tax, oil and gas extractors pay 40% Corporation Tax on their North Sea activities. So we should presumably have lots of tax revenue from these bumper profits. Seizing private businesses sets a dangerous precedent.

I suppose it depends who the gas actually belongs to before its pumped.

 

[RichJF]

Channel 4 reporting it's going to rise to over £5000 by April now.

Is this a bad dream? Some dystopian fake movie? A deliberate ploy by energy companies to make £4500 seem "affordable"?

It's starting to get to the point where it's not worth it any more?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Worth what?

We have to drastically reduce energy use or the climate is knackered and humans will likely become extinct.

I think this may be the wake up the UK needed.

Other than short term help while we do we need to get insulating, now.

 

[davews]

My consumption, gas and electric, is around 60% of Ofcom's 'typical' usage figures. You can scream about climate change as much as you like (and yes it is lovely summer weather at the moment) but there is very little I personally can do with my fully double glazed, loft insulated, cavity wall insulated, house with already pretty economic usage.
Who on earth is setting these 'caps' now, it seems to be the media. Nobody seems to be working out what the price in pence/kWH is needed to be related to the actual cost of producing and distributing it.

 

[Cloud Strife]

Channel 4 reporting it's going to rise to over £5000 by April now.

Is this a bad dream? Some dystopian fake movie? A deliberate ploy by energy companies to make £4500 seem "affordable"?

It's starting to get to the point where it's not worth it any more?

I've read an interesting comment somewhere about the rise in home temperatures. In short, historically, having houses heated to the point where you can walk around barefoot in shorts and t-shirts is not normal, and that we might well end up returning to a situation where 13-14c at home in winter might be the norm.

 

[Wynd]

Worth what?

We have to drastically reduce energy use or the climate is knackered and humans will likely become extinct.

I think this may be the wake up the UK needed.

Other than short term help while we do we need to get insulating, now.

If you live where I live, and don't have some form of fossil fuel heating, the fastest way to become extinct is to turn the heating down, or off.

People here don't have a choice, in the winter its its heat your home or die. It really is that simple.

No amount of woolly jumpers will save you if its -20 outside, which happens here plenty. Last winter we got -23.

I fear that far too many just are failing to grasp how serious this is. Then again, if you are the powers that be, and you spend your life in London and surrounding areas, where "Snow" is an alien concept, its little wonder.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you live where I live, and don't have some form of fossil fuel heating, the fastest way to become extinct is to turn the heating down, or off.

People here don't have a choice, in the winter its its heat your home or die. It really is that simple.

No amount of woolly jumpers will save you if its -20 outside, which happens here plenty. Last winter we got -23.

I fear that far too many just are failing to grasp how serious this is. Then again, if you are the powers that be, and you spend your life in London and surrounding areas, where "Snow" is an alien concept, its little wonder.

Homes in Scotland should mandatorily be covered in thick insulation and triple glazed, as they might be in Switzerland. This needs to be done urgently and funded by the taxpayer.

That is what I mean by insulate, though knocking your heating down to say 18-19 if not already that low and putting a jumper on will save a quid or four.

I've read an interesting comment somewhere about the rise in home temperatures. In short, historically, having houses heated to the point where you can walk around barefoot in shorts and t-shirts is not normal, and that we might well end up returning to a situation where 13-14c at home in winter might be the norm.

Or if you do want to do that, you need 8" of Kingspan on the walls and floors and heat recovery ventilation.

 

[RT4038]

My consumption, gas and electric, is around 60% of Ofcom's 'typical' usage figures. You can scream about climate change as much as you like (and yes it is lovely summer weather at the moment) but there is very little I personally can do with my fully double glazed, loft insulated, cavity wall insulated, house with already pretty economic usage.
Who on earth is setting these 'caps' now, it seems to be the media. Nobody seems to be working out what the price in pence/kWH is needed to be related to the actual cost of producing and distributing it.

What the actual cost of producing it matters little - it is what you can buy it for. If it is being produced (inc raw materials) in the UK you may be able to influence, but if not you are at the mercy of world markets.

 

[bleeder4]

I assume that these ridiculous figures of £4k+ being quoted are for 4 bedroom family homes? I live in a flat by myself and use around 800kWh of gas a month during Winter and 100kWh a month during Summer. For many years my direct debit was £31 a month but with the increase in May, it changed to £54. So I'm now paying an extra £276 per year (£23 a month). Even if I multiply that by 4 to assume an occupancy of 4 people, rather than just me, it only gives an increase of £1104. Time will tell I suppose, but I do think there is an element of sensationalism in these figures being bandied around.

 

[JamesT]

I assume that these ridiculous figures of £4k+ being quoted are for 4 bedroom family homes? I live in a flat by myself and use around 800kWh of gas a month during Winter and 100kWh a month during Summer. For many years my direct debit was £31 a month but with the increase in May, it changed to £54. So I'm now paying an extra £276 per year (£23 a month). Even if I multiply that by 4 to assume an occupancy of 4 people, rather than just me, it only gives an increase of £1104. Time will tell I suppose, but I do think there is an element of sensationalism in these figures being bandied around.

As I posted in #60, it's based on an average consumption, which for gas they state as 12,000kWh (and 2,900kWh of electricity). If your summer and winter are both 6 months, you're using only 5,400kWh so you are indeed much lower than average. (If winter is shorter then it's even lower still)

 

[alxndr]

I assume that these ridiculous figures of £4k+ being quoted are for 4 bedroom family homes? I live in a flat by myself and use around 800kWh of gas a month during Winter and 100kWh a month during Summer. For many years my direct debit was £31 a month but with the increase in May, it changed to £54. So I'm now paying an extra £276 per year (£23 a month). Even if I multiply that by 4 to assume an occupancy of 4 people, rather than just me, it only gives an increase of £1104. Time will tell I suppose, but I do think there is an element of sensationalism in these figures being bandied around.

Your usage does seem very much on the low end. My pilot light alone uses 233 kWh a month. Unfortunately I'm renting currently so upgrading to a combi boiler isn't an option and due to the age of the boiler I don't want to take the risk of turning it off and not have it come back on.

 

[JamesT]

Your usage does seem very much on the low end. My pilot light alone uses 233 kWh a month. Unfortunately I'm renting currently so upgrading to a combi boiler isn't an option and due to the age of the boiler I don't want to take the risk of turning it off and not have it come back on.

If you're literally not using the boiler and it's only the pilot light using 233kWh then I'd be getting someone in to look at that. I use my boiler occasionally to make hot water for doing the dishes, and the occasional cooking on the hob, my last three months gas usage are 101.8kWh, 67.7kWh, 135.0kWh.

 

[yorksrob]

Most boilers with a pilot light will be fairly long in the tooth by now.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you're literally not using the boiler and it's only the pilot light using 233kWh then I'd be getting someone in to look at that. I use my boiler occasionally to make hot water for doing the dishes, and the occasional cooking on the hob, my last three months gas usage are 101.8kWh, 67.7kWh, 135.0kWh.

In July mine (live alone in a smallish 3 bed house) was 39kWh for gas (that's basically just a daily shower and washing my hands; dishwasher and washing machine are cold fill).

In Jan it was 1206kWh. I consider my house quite cheap to run, so 800 does sound very low.

Electricity varies a lot less, but that'll be because my heating is all gas and LED lighting uses next to nothing (my entire lighting circuit with everything on draws 0.5A at 230V). In the days of 100W light bulbs it'll have varied much more.

 

[MikeWM]

As I posted in #60, it's based on an average consumption, which for gas they state as 12,000kWh (and 2,900kWh of electricity). If your summer and winter are both 6 months, you're using only 5,400kWh so you are indeed much lower than average. (If winter is shorter then it's even lower still)

Just looked back at my bills for 2021 and I used about 2,500kWh of gas over the year (and about 2,200kWh of electricity), with the vast majority of that in the winter - this is a three-bedroom house, about 20 years old. And that's with an unusually cold April last year, so I had the heating on further into the year than I would normally.

I don't use the heating a lot though because I prefer it cold, it only goes on if the house drops below 15C, and even then only a couple of radiators downstairs. I guess that's the main area I'm saving compared to others with rather higher usage.

 

[RichJF]

Worth what?

We have to drastically reduce energy use or the climate is knackered and humans will likely become extinct.

I think this may be the wake up the UK needed.

Other than short term help while we do we need to get insulating, now.

My point isn't about climate change. It's very much an emergency issue that needs tackling with long term future planning. My point is that the stratospheric, unaffordable prices rises will make citizens start to contemplate whether it's worth paying, worth even trying to save money any more, being savvy with monetary habits etc when only 3 months down the line everything will be out of reach again.

 

[najaB]

My point isn't about climate change. It's very much an emergency issue that needs tackling with long term future planning. My point is that the stratospheric, unaffordable prices rises will make citizens start to contemplate whether it's worth paying, worth even trying to save money any more, being savvy with monetary habits etc when only 3 months down the line everything will be out of reach again.

Oh, that goes without saying. It's scary how high and how fast prices are rising.

That said, many of the actions needed to combat rising CO2 levels happen to be the same actions that will help cope with rising energy bills.

 

[alxndr]

If you're literally not using the boiler and it's only the pilot light using 233kWh then I'd be getting someone in to look at that. I use my boiler occasionally to make hot water for doing the dishes, and the occasional cooking on the hob, my last three months gas usage are 101.8kWh, 67.7kWh, 135.0kWh.

It really is that high. We've not had the boiler on since the second day we were here once we realised that the hot water tank is so poorly insulated it's futile trying to heat it. All the washing up is done with the kettle or dishwasher (probably not very energy efficient, but can't be worse than the boiler). Cooking is done on a portable induction hob because the electric cooker provided is awful and inefficient.

I've got the paperwork from when the house was checked over before renting and the boiler is apparently fine and not smelt any gas etc. We're hopefully moving out next month anyway.

 

[AM9]

It really is that high. We've not had the boiler on since the second day we were here once we realised that the hot water tank is so poorly insulated it's futile trying to heat it. All the washing up is done with the kettle or dishwasher (probably not very energy efficient, but can't be worse than the boiler). Cooking is done on a portable induction hob because the electric cooker provided is awful and inefficient.

I've got the paperwork from when the house was checked over before renting and the boiler is apparently fine and not smelt any gas etc. We're hopefully moving out next month anyway.

That's interesting about the hot water cylinder. Our tank was a standard type with the yellow foam moulded insulation fitted. It was heated by a floor standing conventional flue boiler (presumably installed when the house was built in 1971) but the small amount of gas used to heat the water wasn't really noticeable.
In 2010, we had a new condensing boiler fitted which was much more efficient, an as the cylinder had so many pinholes in it that was replaced with another that had a captive plastic jacket enclosing some fibrous insulation - probably rockwool. Late last year we had a 4kW solar panel array installed and an economy device that used the immersion heater to heat the water whenever we were exporting, - until the thermostat stopped demanding. Apart from Dec-Feb, there has generally been enough energy from the panels to heat the water so that we turned off the water heating on the boiler programmer. This has saved quite a lot of gas to the extent that Jun24-Jul23, the statement showed 34.3kW use, costing just £2.40 + 5% vat. That included an hour of gas heating water during a visitor's stay and some gas cooking. For the same period in two previous years, the consumption was 157kWh and 255kWh (2012 & 2020 respectively).
The slight problem that we have is that the insulation on the replacement cylinder is definitely sub standard as a water temperature of 60 deg C in the evening falls to 45 deg C the next morning.

 

[najaB]

The slight problem that we have is that the insulation on the replacement cylinder is definitely sub standard as a water temperature of 60 deg C in the evening falls to 45 deg C the next morning.

Is there any possibility of boxing the cylinder in more and filling the space around it with additional insulation - something enough to stop any convective heat losses.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I've read an interesting comment somewhere about the rise in home temperatures. In short, historically, having houses heated to the point where you can walk around barefoot in shorts and t-shirts is not normal, and that we might well end up returning to a situation where 13-14c at home in winter might be the norm.

I think I might find it a little difficult to do anything, like type at a keyboard, at those temperature levels. Wearing several layers of clothing top and bottom halves, plus several pairs of thick socks might do most of the job but several pairs of gloves does restrict movement of digits ever so slightly. Then there is the issue of going to the toilet, perhaps urgently and certainly more frequently than a young thing might.

 

[alxndr]

The slight problem that we have is that the insulation on the replacement cylinder is definitely sub standard as a water temperature of 60 deg C in the evening falls to 45 deg C the next morning.

I didn't measure the temperature but it would drop to being lukewarm/inadequate for washing up within 2 hours. It would either need to be on permanently or I'd have to pre-schedule washing up time hour the boiler to be of any use.

I think I might find it a little difficult to do anything, like type at a keyboard, at those temperature levels. Wearing several layers of clothing top and bottom halves, plus several pairs of thick socks might do most of the job but several pairs of gloves does restrict movement of digits ever so slightly. Then there is the issue of going to the toilet, perhaps urgently and certainly more frequently than a young thing might.

One of the houses my parents stayed in was frequently those sorts of temperatures outside of the living room with a fireplace. If I needed to do homework I'd have to go to the pub as it was too cold to write or type at any reasonable speed. Having the uninsulated attic room I'd sleep in full clothes, including coat, shoes, hat and gloves.

It was survivable, but unpleasant.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

One of the houses my parents stayed in was frequently those sorts of temperatures outside of the living room with a fireplace. If I needed to do homework I'd have to go to the pub as it was too cold to write or type at any reasonable speed. Having the uninsulated attic room I'd sleep in full clothes, including coat, shoes, hat and gloves.

It was survivable, but unpleasant.

There is a TV documentary (available on DVD) of a lady called Hannah Hauxwell who lived in circumstances like that. Very poor, alone, unheated old farmhouse. It shows her getting into bed more than adequately dressed and the weight/thickness of the bedclothes she lifts to get in is clear to see. I thought, as a nation, we had moved on from that sort of thing. There are few who honestly want to return to it I suspect. There is a difference between excessive (25+C), sensible (20C), scrimping (15C) and holier than thou Scott of the Antarctic impersonators.

As a student I lived in a poorly heated house (or specifically my bedroom with single glazed window) with thick ice on the inside of the window.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is a TV documentary (available on DVD) of a lady called Hannah Hauxwell who lived in circumstances like that. Very poor, alone, unheated old farmhouse. It shows her getting into bed more than adequately dressed and the weight/thickness of the bedclothes she lifts to get in is clear to see. I thought, as a nation, we had moved on from that sort of thing. There are few who honestly want to return to it I suspect. There is a difference between excessive (25+C), sensible (20C), scrimping (15C) and holier than thou Scott of the Antarctic impersonators.

Of course there's no particular reason to return to that when the "bedclothes" can be put round the outside of the house in the form of double/triple glazing and foam insulation like Celotex/Kingspan. (Fireproof versions are available, they were just too cheap to use them on Grenfell). It's amazing how much difference it makes - my house has a panel under the lounge window which was just an empty box, I put 6" of Celotex inside plus a moisture barrier and sealed the gaps, and it was noticeably quicker to warm up on a cold morning. The panel is no more than about 2.5m x 1m - imagine what that can achieve if it's done to all walls and a foot of fibreglass roll is added in the loft?

As a student I lived in a poorly heated house (or specifically my bedroom with single glazed window) with thick ice on the inside of the window.

I think most people over about 40 or so (me included) have experienced what life was like before double glazing and central heating, but probably very, very few younger than that.

 

[AM9]

Of course there's no particular reason to return to that when the "bedclothes" can be put round the outside of the house in the form of double/triple glazing and foam insulation like Celotex/Kingspan. (Fireproof versions are available, they were just too cheap to use them on Grenfell). It's amazing how much difference it makes - my house has a panel under the lounge window which was just an empty box, I put 6" of Celotex inside plus a moisture barrier and sealed the gaps, and it was noticeably quicker to warm up on a cold morning. The panel is no more than about 2.5m x 1m - imagine what that can achieve if it's done to all walls and a foot of fibreglass roll is added in the loft?



I think most people over about 40 or so (me included) have experienced what life was like before double glazing and central heating, but probably very, very few younger than that.

It's a great shame the the government's refusal to do anything constructive about the UK's housing stock's generally poor insulation. That refusal to even talk about it makes it look like a childish reaction to the 'Insulate Britain' protests last year. It's taken the rapid rise of energy prices to wake some up, but no mention of the 'I' word as the permanent fix.

 

[Cdd89]

I think a better solution would be long term loans to homeowners for insulation. Since the owner will experience an increase in the capital value of their property as a result and an annual reduction in bills which can be used to repay the loan. That also ensures homeowners have an incentive to do the work in the most cost efficient way, which wouldn’t work with “the government just pays”.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

It's a great shame the the government's refusal to do anything constructive about the UK's housing stock's generally poor insulation. That refusal to even talk about it makes it look like a childish reaction to the 'Insulate Britain' protests last year. It's taken the rapid rise of energy prices to wake some up, but no mention of the 'I' word as the permanent fix.

It needs a sensible discussion, an education of the public and an appropriate approach. The current government's preferred method, that of a ponzi investment scheme, fraudulent pension transfer or double-glazing sales technique - it'll save you money mate, does nothing for me. I automatically assume they are lying through their teeth to make a sale (or at least an appointment with the snake oil salesman). I'd much prefer an approach by a genuinely independent professional who can properly explain what can/needs to be done, how it would be done, by whom and to what standard (not the bang, crash, wallop, sorry about your wallpaper mate lads), the benefits thereof and the range of likely costs - all with no financial incentive / benefit to him of whatever I choose to go with. A bit like financial advisors receiving hidden commissions based on products they recommend or charging by the hour for independent advice and declaring any commissions receivable.

 

[AM9]

It needs a sensible discussion, an education of the public and an appropriate approach. The current government's preferred method, that of a ponzi investment scheme, fraudulent pension transfer or double-glazing sales technique - it'll save you money mate, does nothing for me. I automatically assume they are lying through their teeth to make a sale (or at least an appointment with the snake oil salesman). I'd much prefer an approach by a genuinely independent professional who can properly explain what can/needs to be done, how it would be done, by whom and to what standard (not the bang, crash, wallop, sorry about your wallpaper mate lads), the benefits thereof and the range of likely costs - all with no financial incentive / benefit to him of whatever I choose to go with. A bit like financial advisors receiving hidden commissions based on products they recommend or charging by the hour for independent advice and declaring any commissions receivable.

The fact that the government has let the aftermath of the Grenfell Tower fire drag on for so long speaks volumes for their commitment to climate change let alone the ducking to avoid the Conservative council and big business taking responsibility for their actions that caused all that loss of life.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think a better solution would be long term loans to homeowners for insulation. Since the owner will experience an increase in the capital value of their property as a result and an annual reduction in bills which can be used to repay the loan. That also ensures homeowners have an incentive to do the work in the most cost efficient way, which wouldn’t work with “the government just pays”.

House prices are somewhat relative, and some are reluctant to take on debt, is the problem.

The point re bills is that due to price increases we need to pay the same for less energy - savings aren't relevant.

I personally object to the fact that such schemes normally won't cover the cost of materials only for DIY, even for dead simple stuff like insulating a loft.

The scheme will fail unless it's easy to access and not debt based.

One more thing: the requirement for building regulations notification for "renovation of a thermal element" needs to go. Like the excessive reach of Part P on electrics prevented well behaved DIYers from improving the safety of their electrical systems while the cowboys ignored it, this regulation prevents well behaved DIYers from insulating while the cowboys do a bad job for cash-in-hand undeterred.