Energy price rises and price cap discussion.

[Cdd89]

Out of interest, what do those in favour of highly effective insulation (sorry, that comes out wrong… ) think about the impact in the summer? …

I live in a (ridiculously) highly insulated flat (to the extent that I simply don’t use heating except if it is -1 outdoors!), but there is no escaping that it is too hot in summer (30+ with outdoor temp 25; 27+ with outdoor temp 22). I spent wasted money replacing my MHVR system with one that offers ‘summer bypass’ (where it doesn’t attempt heat recovery), but the effect is negligible. A/C is the only thing that works, but that too is restricted since the condenser of a split system cannot be installed onto the external facade, and nor can the external portion of a through-the-window system. So I can either go for a portable air conditioner (highly inefficient - £400/month in summer) or a water-cooled system (incredibly wasteful of water - to the extent that I’m amazed they’re not banned, although they are in Montreal).

Having experienced the problems of excessive insulation with no legislation forcing maximum temperatures on developers, what do others think is the solution to avoid creating a new problem* while solving the first?

*NB: I agree that the new problem, as described above, is far better than the old problem!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Out of interest, what do those in favour of highly effective insulation (sorry, that comes out wrong… ) think about the impact in the summer? …

It works both ways and can keep heat out, too. I'd suggest if yours is getting too warm it'd benefit from things preventing heat getting in e.g. reflective windows and white rendering and roof. Most Swiss buildings are white, this is not only to look nice.

 

[Trainbike46]

I think most people over about 40 or so (me included) have experienced what life was like before double glazing and central heating, but probably very, very few younger than that.

I have woken up to find ice on the inside of the window of my student room once, and I am only 24!

Out of interest, what do those in favour of highly effective insulation (sorry, that comes out wrong… ) think about the impact in the summer? …

Depending on the window layout, insulating can actually help keep the house cool in summer. Ventilate at night, keep the heat out during the day.

I live in a (ridiculously) highly insulated flat (to the extent that I simply don’t use heating except if it is -1 outdoors!), but there is no escaping that it is too hot in summer (30+ with outdoor temp 25; 27+ with outdoor temp 22). I spent wasted money replacing my MHVR system with one that offers ‘summer bypass’ (where it doesn’t attempt heat recovery), but the effect is negligible. A/C is the only thing that works, but that too is restricted since the condenser of a split system cannot be installed onto the external facade, and nor can the external portion of a through-the-window system. So I can either go for a portable air conditioner (highly inefficient - £400/month in summer) or a water-cooled system (incredibly wasteful of water - to the extent that I’m amazed they’re not banned, although they are in Montreal).

Do you have south-facing windows? that might be the problem if so. In any case, is installing external blinds to keep the sun out during the day an option for you?

Having experienced the problems of excessive insulation with no legislation forcing maximum temperatures on developers, what do others think is the solution to avoid creating a new problem* while solving the first?

*NB: I agree that the new problem, as described above, is far better than the old problem!

Building regulations here are a complete mess and urgently need updating (at least for new builds!), and including factors to help keep cool in summer, such as external blinds and considering window placement, should absolutely be included

 

[alxndr]

There is a TV documentary (available on DVD) of a lady called Hannah Hauxwell who lived in circumstances like that. Very poor, alone, unheated old farmhouse. It shows her getting into bed more than adequately dressed and the weight/thickness of the bedclothes she lifts to get in is clear to see. I thought, as a nation, we had moved on from that sort of thing. There are few who honestly want to return to it I suspect. There is a difference between excessive (25+C), sensible (20C), scrimping (15C) and holier than thou Scott of the Antarctic impersonators.

As a student I lived in a poorly heated house (or specifically my bedroom with single glazed window) with thick ice on the inside of the window.

That sounds very much like the house we lived in. It was an old 17th century cottage, mostly wattle-and-daub, with single glazed windows. There was a night storage heater in the living room, the main bedroom, and a completely broken one in the kitchen-diner. The ones which did work took the chill off at about 6am, but it was cold shortly after. There was one very small fireplace in the living room that provided almost all our heating, with us collecting wood from the roadside and chopping down a couple of trees from the garden.

I think I once took the kitchen meat thermometer up to my room which measured 13°C and still dropping. Ice inside the window was a nightly occurrence.

Of course there's no particular reason to return to that when the "bedclothes" can be put round the outside of the house in the form of double/triple glazing and foam insulation like Celotex/Kingspan. (Fireproof versions are available, they were just too cheap to use them on Grenfell). It's amazing how much difference it makes - my house has a panel under the lounge window which was just an empty box, I put 6" of Celotex inside plus a moisture barrier and sealed the gaps, and it was noticeably quicker to warm up on a cold morning. The panel is no more than about 2.5m x 1m - imagine what that can achieve if it's done to all walls and a foot of fibreglass roll is added in the loft?

I think most people over about 40 or so (me included) have experienced what life was like before double glazing and central heating, but probably very, very few younger than that.

I lived in the house previously mentioned from 2012 to 2013, my parents continued to live there in the same condition until 2018. I am now 26, so one of the few of my age who do know what it's like. The place we lived before wasn't much warmer though, so it didn't strike me as being that unusual. I'm not sure I'd want to go back to it again though, especially as I don't have any dogs to share bodyheat with.

Getting landlords to insulate is something that needs to be tackled. I believe after some pressure from the council employed neighbour they did do some insulation work on the house we had before the next people rented, and fitted some central heating, but I doubt they would have done so if we had remained in the property.

Out of interest, what do those in favour of highly effective insulation (sorry, that comes out wrong… ) think about the impact in the summer? …

I live in a (ridiculously) highly insulated flat (to the extent that I simply don’t use heating except if it is -1 outdoors!), but there is no escaping that it is too hot in summer (30+ with outdoor temp 25; 27+ with outdoor temp 22). I spent wasted money replacing my HVAC system with one that offers ‘summer bypass’ (where it doesn’t attempt heat recovery), but the effect is negligible. A/C is the only thing that works, but that too is restricted since the condenser of a split system cannot be installed onto the external facade, and nor can the external portion of a through-the-window system. So I can either go for a portable air conditioner (highly inefficient - £400/month in summer) or a water-cooled system (incredibly wasteful of water - to the extent that I’m amazed they’re not banned, although they are in Montreal).

Having experienced the problems of excessive insulation with no legislation forcing maximum temperatures on developers, what do others think is the solution to avoid creating a new problem* while solving the first?

*NB: I agree that the new problem, as described above, is far better than the old problem!

Insulation works both ways as it stops the exchange of heat between the interior and exterior. Think of a thermos flask—it can keep hot things hot or cold things cold. If you don't let the heat get in your well-insulated house then it should keep relatively cool. The problem comes when people leave curtains and blinds open, and open the window. It lets the sunlight in, but it also lets the heat in, and once it's in the insulation traps it there. Keep the sun and the heat out and you should be fine.

 

[Cdd89]

if yours is getting too warm it'd benefit from things preventing heat getting in e.g. reflective windows and white rendering and roof. Most Swiss buildings are white, this is not only to look nice.

Already got both. The effect is negligible…

The problem comes when people leave curtains and blinds open, and open the window. It lets the sunlight in, but it also lets the heat in, and once it's in the insulation traps it there. Keep the sun and the heat out and you should be fine.

Absolutely; there’s a real ‘greenhouse effect’ (especially as the windows are floor-to-ceiling). I do have blinds, and closing them helps a bit; but as they’re internal, they just get boiling hot instead and act as radiators. External blinds would be great, and should definitely be in building codes.

Personally, I think the capability to install an efficient (eg split system) A/C system should be part of building codes too. A/C should be a last resort with everything done to reduce the need for it, but given that people will install it if they feel it is required, better to support the most efficient sort. The fantasy is instead maintained that no support for A/C means no A/C use.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

There is a TV documentary (available on DVD) of a lady called Hannah Hauxwell who lived in circumstances like that. Very poor, alone, unheated old farmhouse.

The original documentary was "Too Long a Winter" and was broadcast in 1973. The farmhouse in question, at the time of filming, had no electricity or running water.

Picture paints a thousand words, and all that...


(Low Birk Hatt farm, Baldersdale, North Yorkshire.
One time home of the celebrated Daleswoman Hannah Hauxwell (1926-2018)).

 

[najaB]

I think most people over about 40 or so (me included) have experienced what life was like before double glazing and central heating, but probably very, very few younger than that.

Sadly, it isn't very very few. There are still a lot of very poorly insulated houses around. When I moved back to the UK in 2005 and was searching for a flat to rent, at least half of the ones we looked at either had single glazing, or double glazing in name only.

 

[AlterEgo]

Ofcom puts up the cap and the suppliers instantly increase their charges to it, irrespective of their profits.

Ofcom is not the gas and electricity markets regulator.

Ofgem is.

 

[DelayRepay]

Sadly, it isn't very very few. There are still a lot of very poorly insulated houses around. When I moved back to the UK in 2005 and was searching for a flat to rent, at least half of the ones we looked at either had single glazing, or double glazing in name only.

This is true. My sister's rented house is a good example. There's some loft insulation but it's not thick enough. The windows are double glazed but draughty, the doors are draughty, and the boiler is old.

She's not in a position to invest in improvements herself, and why would she when tenancies are short term in this country? There's no incentive for the landlord to improve it - he'll always have tenants due to the housing shortage. It's enough of a challenge getting him to fix/replace things that are actually broken. So she ends up paying a higher gas bill, wasting our finite natural resources and contributing to carbon emissions.

I don't think that government subsidies should be used to improve privately owned rental properties, but perhaps there needs to be a tax regime that penalises BTL landlords who own poorly insulated homes?

 

[AM9]

Sadly, it isn't very very few. There are still a lot of very poorly insulated houses around. When I moved back to the UK in 2005 and was searching for a flat to rent, at least half of the ones we looked at either had single glazing, or double glazing in name only.

UK housing has had a couple of steps in insulation quality, - the gradual introduction of cavity walls in the early 20th century was effectively made mandatory in the 1940s. Although the prime purpose was to reduce damp penetration, it slightly improved insulation, which was further enhanced with filling the cavity with (dry) insulation from the '70s (compulsory in the '90s). Loft insulation started to be common in the '60s when glass fibre became commonplace, but it wan't until 2006 that there was a specified minimum level of insulation mandated for new homes.
It's a disgrace that succesive governments have ignored the long term impact of poor insulation standards, failing to even educate the population of why it is essential. It is estimated that in 2020, about half of the 21m domestic properties in the UK don't even meet the 1976 standards, but now the whole policy of letting people make their own choices (and pay of course) will probably cause a breakdown of domestic life in a significant part of the nation's population. The sad fact is most of the public just don't understand the significance of insulation and will just demand lower prices so that they can pay less for energy so that they can waste it.
In a year or two, the nation will resent this abject failure of government on a grand scale.

 

[davews]

Ofcom is not the gas and electricity markets regulator.

Ofgem is.

Put that down to a typo......

 

[alxndr]

Sadly, it isn't very very few. There are still a lot of very poorly insulated houses around. When I moved back to the UK in 2005 and was searching for a flat to rent, at least half of the ones we looked at either had single glazing, or double glazing in name only.

I agree that insulation is lacking in many places and it's not good living in a poorly insulated house but there is a vast difference between a poorly insulated house and one with no central heating and single glazing.

In the former it's a waste of energy, unpleasant and many people accustomed to a cosy modern home would find it awful, but you can still function relatively normally, albeit maybe with a blanket in the evenings. In the latter it's arguing who gets to have the dog under their blanket to stop shivering, only feeling warm for the few minutes you're under the hot water of the shower, and putting off cooking or using the bathroom because that means leaving the blankets. The toilet paper is damp and beginning to mould anyway, like much of the rest of the house.

 

[najaB]

I agree that insulation is lacking in many places and it's not good living in a poorly insulated house but there is a vast difference between a poorly insulated house and one with no central heating and single glazing.

Several of the flats I viewed had exactly that - single glazed windows and no central heating. Some had storage heaters, but quite old ones that likely didn't work properly.

 

[Jimini]

We go from one extreme to the other. Our flat in South Woodford is only 13 years old and therefore so well insulated that we only ever touch the heating when it’s about -5 outside, but it’s hellish during hot weather such as now. The perils of only having windows / balcony on one side of course doesn’t help. On the other hand, our house in Coventry is 90 years old and, whilst not cheap to heat in the winter, it’s joyous on days like today where you can crack open every window and door at 5am or so, let the cool air in, then close down when the sun comes up and it remains cool pretty much throughout the day.

 

[najaB]

We go from one extreme to the other. Our flat in South Woodford is only 13 years old and therefore so well insulated that we only ever touch the heating when it’s about -5 outside, but it’s hellish during hot weather such as now. The perils of only having windows / balcony on one side of course doesn’t help.

That's where a dual mode heat pump (or any air handler really) would come into its own. The same system that provides warm air in the winter can provide cool air in the summer.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's where a dual mode heat pump (or any air handler really) would come into its own. The same system that provides warm air in the winter can provide cool air in the summer.

Though a heat pump running in reverse is an air cooler (or vice versa), same as installing aircon though it may or may not manage humidity (most train aircon is in fact air cooling as it doesn't). There was a rather silly article in the Times today suggesting it'd kick out less heat outside, er, no...

 

[cactustwirly]

Worth what?

We have to drastically reduce energy use or the climate is knackered and humans will likely become extinct.

I think this may be the wake up the UK needed.

Other than short term help while we do we need to get insulating, now.

Energy use in the UK is a drop in the ocean.
The problem is China and globalization, manufacturing goods in China and shipping them halfway across the world.

Penalizing the poor, in poorly insulated rented properties is not the answer to solving climate change...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Energy use in the UK is a drop in the ocean.
The problem is China and globalization, manufacturing goods in China and shipping them halfway across the world.

Penalizing the poor, in poorly insulated rented properties is not the answer to solving climate change...

This is used as a poor excuse not to act. Every little helps.

 

[cactustwirly]

This is used as a poor excuse not to act. Every little helps.

I refuse to accept a dramatic decline in living standards when the Chinese and Americans release tons of C02 into the atmosphere

 

[najaB]

Penalizing the poor, in poorly insulated rented properties is not the answer to solving climate change...

I agree. Penalising the poor by leaving them in poorly insulated rented properties rather than fixing them isn't the solution to climate change.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I refuse to accept a dramatic decline in living standards when the Chinese and Americans release tons of C02 into the atmosphere

The point is that you needn't accept a dramatic decline in living standards. Living in a better insulated house isn't a downgrade in living standards compared with living in one that is chucking 50 quid notes up the chimney and through the single glazed windows. It is exactly the same living standard, it's just lower carbon.

I agree. Penalising the poor by leaving them in poorly insulated rented properties rather than fixing them isn't the solution to climate change.

Indeed, landlords should be required to get their properties up to a decent standard including for existing tenants.

The system of EPCs already determines how this could be done - they show what it is now and what the potential is. All landlords should be required to do the work to bring it up to the potential level. And all new homes should be required to be at least A, ideally better e.g. Passivhaus, with immediate effect for all new planning applications.

 

[Jimini]

This is used as a poor excuse not to act. Every little helps.

I thought you worked for Chiltern, not Tesco?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I thought you worked for Chiltern, not Tesco?

Same colour scheme

 

[yorksrob]

I refuse to accept a dramatic decline in living standards when the Chinese and Americans release tons of C02 into the atmosphere

Seems a bitter pill to swallow.

But, we're lucky in this country that we have excellent wildlife across the island. We have a wonderful coastline that we can all enjoy.

When we have to accept a reduction in plane journeys, we're not bad off.

 

[Cloud Strife]

All landlords should be required to do the work to bring it up to the potential level.

This could actually be a very good thing. It would kill the buy-to-let market dead, and potentially release a lot of properties onto the market that buy-to-let landlords simply can't afford to bring up to standard.

Speaking from a Polish perspective, we are frankly screwed. District heating companies are going bankrupt left/right/centre, and in a country where there are a lot of people on pensions of around 1500-2000 PLN (270-360 GBP/month), they simply can't afford to pay the heating and water bills. It's normal with district heating to pay 12 months a year for heating and hot water, but the heating is turned off between October-April. Advance heating/hot water payments are now reaching 1000-1500 PLN, and so the district heating companies are declaring bankruptcy because they know their clients can't pay. There's also the issue that many of those companies simply don't have a guarantee of receiving fuel in winter for the district heating plants, as the government has made a mess of coal (Polish coal is mostly unsuitable for heating purposes) imports too.

The government has also robbed local governments of huge amounts of tax revenues, meaning that they (normally the owners of the district heating systems) can't afford to contribute.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This could actually be a very good thing. It would kill the buy-to-let market dead, and potentially release a lot of properties onto the market that buy-to-let landlords simply can't afford to bring up to standard.

I don't think it would kill the market dead because there are plenty of landlords who realise that even if their BTL doesn't make a profit from month to month they still have equity in an appreciating asset. However it might well cause a bit of a rebalance which would be no bad thing.

 

[Cloud Strife]

I don't think it would kill the market dead because there are plenty of landlords who realise that even if their BTL doesn't make a profit from month to month they still have equity in an appreciating asset. However it might well cause a bit of a rebalance which would be no bad thing.

Would those assets continue to appreciate if they can't be sold to other buy to let landlords?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Would those assets continue to appreciate if they can't be sold to other buy to let landlords?

Yes, because inflation.

 

[DelayRepay]

Penalizing the poor, in poorly insulated rented properties is not the answer to solving climate change...

Irrespective of climate change, fixing their homes so they need less energy to keep warm is the solution to people becoming ill due to not being able to afford to turn the heating on. Long term is is a better solution than the government applying cash credits to energy bills.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

My consumption, gas and electric, is around 60% of Ofcom's 'typical' usage figures. You can scream about climate change as much as you like (and yes it is lovely summer weather at the moment) but there is very little I personally can do with my fully double glazed, loft insulated, cavity wall insulated, house with already pretty economic usage.
Who on earth is setting these 'caps' now, it seems to be the media. Nobody seems to be working out what the price in pence/kWH is needed to be related to the actual cost of producing and distributing it.

The cap is a flawed process as it uses the average price of gas over the last six months using the day ahead prices but all the big suppliers don't buy on day ahead they have vast forward supply arrangements that have locked in much lower prices than the current day ahead price. What the cap is doing is giving majority of suppliers substantial upside on there supply arrangements. The suppliers that failed didn't have these arrangements and thought they could avoid the additional cost of locking in forward contracts to undermine the likes of Centrica. Remember North Sea gas fields were developed decades ago at far lower prices as well as the long term supply arrangements we have with Norway and Qatar (LNG). Yes these contracts will have expiry dates and only the suppliers and wholesalers really know the true position. The govt chucking money at support without maximising the recovery from suppliers through a windfall tax is just further enriching those that don't need at the expense of the rest of us. Radical though it is removing the cap would result in competition coming back into market and suppliers will adjust their prices lower to gain consumers.