England's new three-tier lockdown system

[Peter Sarf]

Sat in a restaurant in SW London*. Except for the facemasks you would not know anything is wrong and I'm not sure Sadiq's Tier 2 is being obeyed.... And the luvvies on the next table are the type provably telling pollsters they love lockdown. On the other hand am currently debating what on earth to do as regards seeing family in Wales at Christmas. Do I risk an interrogation by the BTP if I get caught in a Drakeford?

* I am Thames pathing - noticed a Thameside house decorated with CLC line stuff...

Well that is the same frustration I have. I did not go to Cardiff 12-18/10/2020 for stepsons 40th. I cannot imagine we will not be in teir-3 by Christmas where all the rest of the family are. Quite possible we (Croydon) will have come back out of tier-3 by then. On the other hand we might have gone back in to tier-3 again by Christmas anyway !. Double jeopardy as Cardiff will be on the way in or out of the Welsh lockdown(s). But will I risk catching Covid-19 even if it is supposed to be safe to go.

 

[STINT47]

Still planning to go as non-essential travel is not illegal (but advised against). Not sure if I will be prosecuted by the BTP if stopped, but as I keep reiterating this appears to be advisory and not illegal.

It is guidance not the law. The BTP could offer advice but you are well within your rights to say I have considered the advice and guidance but decided to travel.

You cannot be fined or prosecute as you haven't broken a law. As for ticket office staff unfortunately some of them (but not the majority) give poor/incorrect information.

 

[DJH1971]

It is guidance not the law. The BTP could offer advice but you are well within your rights to say I have considered the advice and guidance but decided to travel.

You cannot be fined or prosecute as you haven't broken a law. As for ticket office staff unfortunately some of them (but not the majority) give poor/incorrect information.

So basically, I am still technically OK to travel on the day in question current situation being in place?

 

[Huntergreed]

So basically, I am still technically OK to travel on the day in question current situation being in place?

Yes, this will be fine.

 

[DJH1971]

Yes, this will be fine.

Just a bit worried that Avanti will not let me board, or get a bit funny.

 

[Huntergreed]

Just a bit worried that Avanti will not let me board, or get a bit funny.

This shouldn't happen. You are best reserving a seat in advance, and if anyone asks just state your journey is 'essential' (the conversation should end there, with them allowing you to travel), although this shouldn't be asked anyway, as the 'essential only' is mere advice.

If they deny you travel and you have bought a ticket, they will have failed to carry out their end of the contract, and you would be entitled to claim a full refund or indeed take legal action.

 

[DJH1971]

This shouldn't happen. You are best reserving a seat in advance, and if anyone asks just state your journey is 'essential' (the conversation should end there, with them allowing you to travel), although this shouldn't be asked anyway, as the 'essential only' is mere advice.

If they deny you travel and you have bought a ticket, they will have failed to carry out their end of the contract, and you would be entitled to claim a full refund or indeed take legal action.

I booked the ticket in advance last month and advance tickets are non-refundable. I also queried in the case I was going down for travel to another office and was told 'you will be asked by the BTP the location of your office and the details of who you are going to see'.

 

[yorkie]

I booked the ticket in advance last month and advance tickets are non-refundable. I also queried in the case I was going down for travel to another office and was told 'you will be asked by the BTP the location of your office and the details of who you are going to see'.

I'd write to the company to complain.

Did you get the name of the person? If so, send me a conversation message as I have contacts there.

 

[island]

So basically, I am still technically OK to travel on the day in question current situation being in place?

Yes, based on the current situation.

It remains open to the powers-that-be to pass new regulations in the intervening period which could change that.

 

[DJH1971]

I'd write to the company to complain.

Did you get the name of the person? If so, send me a conversation message as I have contacts there.

I didn't get the name of the person, but it was a woman (was quite tall with brown hair and glasses) near the ticket office at Manchester Piccadilly who worked for Avanti who said this to me.

 

[Smidster]

I didn't get the name of the person, but it was a woman (was quite tall with brown hair and glasses) near the ticket office at Manchester Piccadilly who worked for Avanti who said this to me.

Absolute nonsense - The guidance is very clear that even in tier 3 the advice is that you should not travel unless it is for an "essential" purpose.

The key words there being "Advice" and "Should" - There is absolutely nothing stopping you from doing so and in the very unlikely event that anyone were to challenge you then I would be taking it up as an official complaint after stating that my journey was allowed.

You can ask yourself whether or not you are comfortable going against the Government advice on the issue but legally it is completely fine. Saying you will be "questioned" by BTP or have to provide details of you manager is just baloney and an employee who either doesn't know what they are doing or has been told to give misleading and incorrect information.

 

[ChrisC]

Now the City of Nottingham and the neighbouring areas of Gedling, Rushcliffe and Broxtowe are to be raised to Tier 3 from Thursday. This is supposed to be for 28 days but we will wait and see what happens there. This was expected 3 weeks ago when Nottingham had the highest number of cases in England but in the last 3 weeks cases have fallen from over 800 per 100,000 to around 400 per 100,000.

I can perhaps understand why this has been imposed upon the city as hospital cases have been rising. It’s the businesses in the rural areas of Gedling, Rushcliffe and Broxtowe that I really feel sorry for. With parts of the city conurbation such as Arnold, Carlton, Beeston, West Bridgford being in these boroughs the whole area has been put into Tier 3. We now have villages up to 15 miles away from Nottingham, with very low levels of infection in Tier 3. At the same time, a town like Hucknall, with high levels of infection, only 6 miles from Nottingham and on the tram network, remains in Tier 2 because it is in the Ashfield District.

Surely in a rural county like Nottinghamshire this should have been been done by postcode rather than council area. I suppose the same must have happened in parts of rural Lancashire, Northumberland and Durham. I live in one of the Nottinghamshire villages to be in Tier 3 from Thursday and I certainly feel safer from the virus remaining there than I would going into the neighbouring Tier 2 towns to do some shopping!

 

[Skimpot flyer]

Now the City of Nottingham and the neighbouring areas of Gedling, Rushcliffe and Broxtowe are to be raised to Tier 3 from Thursday. This is supposed to be for 28 days but we will wait and see what happens there. This was expected 3 weeks ago when Nottingham had the highest number of cases in England but in the last 3 weeks cases have fallen from over 800 per 100,000 to around 400 per 100,000.

I can perhaps understand why this has been imposed upon the city as hospital cases have been rising. It’s the businesses in the rural areas of Gedling, Rushcliffe and Broxtowe that I really feel sorry for. With parts of the city conurbation such as Arnold, Carlton, Beeston, West Bridgford being in these boroughs the whole area has been put into Tier 3. We now have villages up to 15 miles away from Nottingham, with very low levels of infection in Tier 3. At the same time, a town like Hucknall, with high levels of infection, only 6 miles from Nottingham and on the tram network, remains in Tier 2 because it is in the Ashfield District.

Surely in a rural county like Nottinghamshire this should have been been done by postcode rather than council area. I suppose the same must have happened in parts of rural Lancashire, Northumberland and Durham. I live in one of the Nottinghamshire villages to be in Tier 3 from Thursday and I certainly feel safer from the virus remaining there than I would going into the neighbouring Tier 2 towns to do some shopping!

Hucknall should not be placed in the green or amber tiers. It has to be Simply Red?

 

[ChrisC]

Hucknall should not be placed in the green or amber tiers. It has to be Simply Red?

Very good. I hope you are not trying to take the mick!

 

[Yew]

Now the City of Nottingham and the neighbouring areas of Gedling, Rushcliffe and Broxtowe are to be raised to Tier 3 from Thursday. This is supposed to be for 28 days but we will wait and see what happens there. This was expected 3 weeks ago when Nottingham had the highest number of cases in England but in the last 3 weeks cases have fallen from over 800 per 100,000 to around 400 per 100,000.

I can perhaps understand why this has been imposed upon the city as hospital cases have been rising. It’s the businesses in the rural areas of Gedling, Rushcliffe and Broxtowe that I really feel sorry for. With parts of the city conurbation such as Arnold, Carlton, Beeston, West Bridgford being in these boroughs the whole area has been put into Tier 3. We now have villages up to 15 miles away from Nottingham, with very low levels of infection in Tier 3. At the same time, a town like Hucknall, with high levels of infection, only 6 miles from Nottingham and on the tram network, remains in Tier 2 because it is in the Ashfield District.

Surely in a rural county like Nottinghamshire this should have been been done by postcode rather than council area. I suppose the same must have happened in parts of rural Lancashire, Northumberland and Durham. I live in one of the Nottinghamshire villages to be in Tier 3 from Thursday and I certainly feel safer from the virus remaining there than I would going into the neighbouring Tier 2 towns to do some shopping!

Apparently these restrictions are to ensure a 'sustained decline in cases'; of course, they give not attention to the clear and consistent decline in cases for the last two weeks, which has resulted in a 50% decline.

Nevertheless, we are now faced with these unproven puritanical restrictions; and an arbitrary 28 day review period, which seems in obvious contravention of the legal requirement for restrictions to last as short as possible. I hope that my city, and the businesses and people in it can last through this; I also hope that I survive.

 

[ChrisC]

Apparently these restrictions are to ensure a 'sustained decline in cases'; of course, they give not attention to the clear and consistent decline in cases for the last two weeks, which has resulted in a 50% decline.

Nevertheless, we are now faced with these unproven puritanical restrictions; and an arbitrary 28 day review period, which seems in obvious contravention of the legal requirement for restrictions to last as short as possible. I hope that my city, and the businesses and people in it can last through this; I also hope that I survive.

I also hope that the businesses, especially some of the village pubs, in the villages of Rushcliffe and Gedling area also survive. Many of these are 10-15 miles from Nottingham and have had very low levels of infection in comparison to the city. This did not happen with the Leicester lockdown. It was only the city and a few communities just outside the city boundary that were put in lockdown.

 

[HSTEd]

I also hope that the businesses, especially some of the village pubs, in the villages of Rushcliffe and Gedling area also survive. Many of these are 10-15 miles from Nottingham and have had very low levels of infection in comparison to the city. This did not happen with the Leicester lockdown. It was only the city and a few communities just outside the city boundary that were put in lockdown.

Just the lousy definition of Nottingham striking again.

Really this should be impetus for change.

 

[Yew]

Just the lousy definition of Nottingham striking again.

Really this should be impetus for change.

That would require Nottingham City Council and Nottinghamshire County Council to agree on something; and that's never going to happen

 

[STINT47]

In Nottingham we have just over 24 hours until we enter tier 3 but the exact details of restrictions have not been published. Breaking news says the announcement has now been pushed back to tommorow so we now have business owners and employees still wondering if they'll be going to work on Thursday and if not what help may be available.

To say this is annoying me and many others is an understatement. If you want people to buy into these new restrictions clear and timely communication is vital. Leaving us in the dark with a day to go is not the way.

I'm increasingly seeing a change in attitudes from people across social media and from friends to a view that these lockdowns are costing to much. Compare that with March when if you questioned any part of lockdown you were seen as a traitor to the nation.

The shambolic way this has all been handled added to a lack of an exit plan and an explanation of the science has made me want to stick two fingers up and say to hell with this I want a job and to live my life.

 

[duncanp]

Meanwhile in the West Midlands, Dudley and Staffordshire are going to move into Tier 2 restrictions this week, with talks planned on moving the whole of the region into Tier 3.

Dudley and Staffordshire to move into Tier 2 Covid restrictions this week

Dudley and Staffordshire will move into Tier 2 Covid restrictions this week – with talks planned for the whole West Midlands to move under the highest Tier 3 measures.

www.expressandstar.com

However what is interesting in the article is the proposal by local leaders for a Tier 2 Plus level of restrictions which could keep hospitality venues open, and avoid the need to move into Tier 3.

Whilst I am not keen (as a resident of Sandwell) on having masks everywhere outside the home, and I wonder how well that would be observed or enforced, especially as masks outside the home are not obligatory in Tier 3, it will be interesting to see what they come up with.

The government may just be receptive to these proposals, given the political make of the West Midlands (the mayor is a Conservative) and the fact that the infection rate, whilst high, is not nearly as high as in the North West. Tier 2 Plus could also provide the government with a means of moving areas out of Tier 3.

Dudley and Staffordshire will move into Tier 2 Covid restrictions this week – with talks planned for the whole West Midlands to move under the highest Tier 3 measures.


The two areas will join Wolverhampton, Walsall, Sandwell and Birmingham under Tier 2 "high" level restrictions after cases continued to surge in recent days.

The new restrictions could be announced as early as Wednesday and are likely to come into force later this week.

Talks are due to take place between local leaders and Ministers next week, with the possibility of moving the whole region into Tier 3 "very high" alert measures at the top of the agenda.

The region is understood to be united in its opposition to the imposition of Tier 3, which would see pubs that do not serve substantial meals forced to close, as well as extra restrictions on households mixing.

Council leaders were due to meet on Wednesday with West Midlands Mayor Andy Street, to firm up proposals for a "Tier 2 plus" level of restrictions, which could enable hospitality venues to stay open.

They are understood to be considering putting forward a range of measures, including making wearing face masks mandatory everywhere outside homes and gardens.

Councillor Ian Brookfield, the leader of Wolverhampton Council, said: "We are doing everything we can to save the economy and save lives.

"The last thing we want to do is to blindly go into Tier 3."

It comes after the rate of infection has continued to rise sharply in recent weeks.

South Staffordshire now has the highest rate in the region at 364.7 cases per 100,000 in the seven days to October 23, while Dudley's rate rose to 222.6 over the same period.

The region's other rates are: Walsall (307.2); Cannock Chase (297.7); Sandwell (279.5); Birmingham (266.7); Wolverhampton (245.5); Stafford (205.4); and Lichfield (200.5).

Dudley Council leader Patrick Harley, said the borough's move into Tier 2 had been "on the cards for a while".
"Cases have been rising and we need to be in Tier 2 for perhaps a month to see if it effects the figures," he said.
"The one light at the end of the tunnel is that clearly we are doing something right here in the West Midlands, as the rate of infection, although it is rising, is nowhere near the level it is in places like Manchester, Liverpool and Nottingham."

Lichfield MP Michael Fabricant, said that county-wide Tier 2 restrictions in Staffordshire "may be justified" due to rising cases.

He said: "Unfortunately, so far the movement between tiers is a one way ratchet: upwards.
"We can only begin to get out of these restrictions when the rate of infection per 100,000 population falls below the 140 mark," he said.
"When the 'R' rate begins to fall and eventually becomes less than one so that infection rates drop, I will then intercede - if necessary - with the Secretary of State to lower the alert level back to Tier 1.
"I fear that this may not begin to happen until after Christmas, and probably not until February or March."

 

[NorthOxonian]

Meanwhile in the West Midlands, Dudley and Staffordshire are going to move into Tier 2 restrictions this week, with talks planned on moving the whole of the region into Tier 3.

Dudley and Staffordshire to move into Tier 2 Covid restrictions this week

Dudley and Staffordshire will move into Tier 2 Covid restrictions this week – with talks planned for the whole West Midlands to move under the highest Tier 3 measures.

www.expressandstar.com

However what is interesting in the article is the proposal by local leaders for a Tier 2 Plus level of restrictions which could keep hospitality venues open, and avoid the need to move into Tier 3.

Whilst I am not keen (as a resident of Sandwell) on having masks everywhere outside the home, and I wonder how well that would be observed or enforced, especially as masks outside the home are not obligatory in Tier 3, it will be interesting to see what they come up with.

The government may just be receptive to these proposals, given the political make of the West Midlands (the mayor is a Conservative) and the fact that the infection rate, whilst high, is not nearly as high as in the North West. Tier 2 Plus could also provide the government with a means of moving areas out of Tier 3.

I fail to see how making masks mandatory everywhere is somehow better than Tier 3 restrictions, and indeed the fact it's even being mentioned as an idea is incredibly concerning.

It would also defeat the point of the tiers system - why move to a system like this designed to standardise restrictions if every region negotiates its own tier?

 

[birchesgreen]

Quite novel that we are able to negotiate with our torturers.

 

[duncanp]

I fail to see how making masks mandatory everywhere is somehow better than Tier 3 restrictions, and indeed the fact it's even being mentioned as an idea is incredibly concerning.

It would also defeat the point of the tiers system - why move to a system like this designed to standardise restrictions if every region negotiates its own tier?

It may be that the mask proposal doesn't come to fruition, simply because it would be difficult to enforce and there is evidence to show that transmission of the virus outdoors is negligible.

What might happen is that you get some of the extra restrictions in Tier 3 short of closing pubs and restaurants, such as no mixing of households indoors or outdoors, and a recommendation not to travel to or from an area in Tier 2 Plus unless essential. Or you could even redefine Tier 2 Plus as the new Tier 3, with a new Tier 4 (that Matt Hancock has not ruled out) including the closure of pubs and restaurants and non essential shops.

In some ways this makes sense, as the one thing you don't want to happen is for people to travel from an area with high rates of infection to an area with lower rates of infection. If facilities such as pubs, gyms and hair salons are open, it removes an incentive to travel

Whilst having Tier 2 Plus may defeat the purpose of having standardised restrictions for each tier, it is quite obvious that the government is floundering around not knowing what it is doing, as there are no clearly defined criteria for moving a particular area up and down the tiers.

Leaders and MPs in the North are demanding that the government provide a roadmap for moving areas out of Tier 3, and this proposal might just provide a means of doing that.

 

[Yew]

So we're at 5 tiers now, or is it 7?

 

[HSTEd]

So we're at 5 tiers now, or is it 7?

I'm sure Comrade Boris will increase tier production well above target!

 

[MikeWM]

This isn't really working any better than the masks, local lockdowns, rule of 6 or pub curfews, is it?

We urgently need a change of strategy.

 

[Freightmaster]

We urgently need a change of strategy.

Such as??





MARK

 

[ChrisC]

In Nottingham we have just over 24 hours until we enter tier 3 but the exact details of restrictions have not been published. Breaking news says the announcement has now been pushed back to tommorow so we now have business owners and employees still wondering if they'll be going to work on Thursday and if not what help may be available.

To say this is annoying me and many others is an understatement. If you want people to buy into these new restrictions clear and timely communication is vital. Leaving us in the dark with a day to go is not the way.

I'm increasingly seeing a change in attitudes from people across social media and from friends to a view that these lockdowns are costing to much. Compare that with March when if you questioned any part of lockdown you were seen as a traitor to the nation.

The shambolic way this has all been handled added to a lack of an exit plan and an explanation of the science has made me want to stick two fingers up and say to hell with this I want a job and to live my life.

This absolutely shambolic situation continues in Nottinghamshire.
BBC Radio Nottingham presenters seemed to be getting more and more confused and frustrated throughout yesterday as the details of the restrictions failed to be published. They were promised them some time yesterday morning and this didn’t happen then or even later in the day.

The latest news now is that more talks are due to take place this morning with council leaders in other parts of Nottinghamshire, with the possibility of Ashfield and Mansfield also moving up to Tier 3 and maybe even the whole county. The number of infections in Ashfield and Mansfield are rapidly rising to the same levels as in the areas that are due to enter Tier 3 tomorrow.

This is very unfair on the businesses in Nottingham, Gedling, Broxtowe and Rushcliffe who are currently still due to enter Tier 3 at midnight but still have no details.

It is also being reported that an issue being discussed is alcohol sales in shops. They may be trying to restrict this in some way to stop elicit parties.

 

[yorksrob]

So they're worried about elicit parties in peoples homes. Who'd have thought stopping controlled socialising in public would lead to it being driven underground eh ! Really didn't see that one coming.

 

[birchesgreen]

Such as?

An actual strategy might help