Entire 800/801/802 fleet stood down for safety checks

[Ploughman]

Modelling is only as good as input data...

Is it also a result of working to a limit state rather than building in a tolerance?

 

[HST274]

80% have failed some initial tests, but I believe more thorough ones are being conducted over the weekend. It’s no quick fix.

Shame. No doubt they are planning as we speak to free up some 165/166s and other DMUs for long distance journeys, even if for only part the journey. I hope the train I am planning to get is running anyway.
-Robert

 

[zwk500]

LNER are essentially a Hitachi-only operator, so it is not necessary for them to specify the precise nature of the fault nor which fleet it is that is being affected.

However, there's no reason for them not to have said 'its a fault with our trains', which would have given information to customers that other TOCs might be running services on at least part of the routes. To initially just say 'a fault being investigated' gives no indication to passengers as to what alternative options there might be or how long until recovery service begins.

 

[Horizon22]

Shame. No doubt they are planning as we speak to free up some 165/166s and other DMUs for long distance journeys, even if for only part the journey. I hope the train I am planning to get is running anyway.
-Robert

Oh people are working exceptionally hard to bring some semblance of a regular service back to everyone. But expect abnormal stock, odd calling patterns and interchanges.

It’s all incredibly bad timing as passenger numbers were steadily recovering to very healthy off-peak numbers.

 

[hwl]

Assembled in Britain, but the affected operations (welding) would have been carried out at Kasado in Japan and Pistoia in Italy...



And only useful if what's been modelled matches what comes out of the assembly line. Welding is always going to be very tricky to model accurately, in terms of thickness, homogeneity, heat soak, etc

Agreed but that is part of what safety (fudge) factors are for in design...

 

[Snow1964]

It is currently affecting 80% of GWR 80xs which are out of service. Disruption likely to stretch into next week.

So what, given that trains have been withdrawn for safety issues at short notice, would you suggest that they do?

GWR have a section on their website called Our Disruption Plan

Train Travel News and Updates | Great Western Railway

Click here to check changes that might affect your train journey and follow up-to-the-minute GWR train travel news and updates.

www.gwr.com

however clicking it today takes you to a train naming section, so presumably the plan is to name a train

....... um, very passenger focused

 

[221101 Voyager]

What I don't get is how brand new trains can have such a catastrophic failure/fault.

With all the R&D that happens these days and with all the technology we have how could such a issue not be found in the design & testing process?

 

[O L Leigh]

However, there's no reason for them not to have said 'its a fault with our trains', which would have given information to customers that other TOCs might be running services on at least part of the routes. To initially just say 'a fault being investigated' gives no indication to passengers as to what alternative options there might be or how long until recovery service begins.

That's several shades too subtle for the majority of passengers to get any inference out of. The key message for them is that services are cancelled and alternatives are available. I got quite a list just from reading the BBC News article online.

 

[35B]

Indeed he has, but the difference is that David Horne is working for a TOC that is owned by the same branch of Government that procured the trains that are now found to have issues. LNER is doing everything it can to avoid being specific about the nature of the problem.

LNER have gone out their way to avoid mentioning the word 'Azuma' or 'Hitachi' or reference the exact nature of the issues this morning because they want to protect both their own brands and also ensure that the DfT is protected from the fall out. It very much is self first, customer second with them.

This is what Nationalisation will bring you. It won't bring you a customer focused operator, it will bring you a single self-serving operator doing whatever it can to cover it's own back and to protect it's overlords in whoever happens to be running the Government of the day. It won't care about you or me as it's priority.

LNER could have come out with a statement like GWR and mentioned that all it's Azuma trains are being checked, but it won't do that because it doesn't want the Azuma brand to be tarnished by this so instead they are being vague in the hope that they can limit the damage to the Azuma brand.

Hats off to GWR for continuing to be as open and transparent and focusing on customer service as they have done, in a world where TOCs are increasingly are more interested in protecting their image than customer service.

They're protecting the "Azuma" brand, which makes sense given how much it's been promoted. That's nothing to do with the ownership.

 

[hwl]

Is it also a result of working to a limit state rather than building in a tolerance?

If they haven't left in healthly tolerances then that is a big oops...

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Apologies for the inaccuracies - only had a quick look on wikipedia and a couple of other places before posting.
Didn't realise Hitachi were building in Italy now, is that the old AnsaldoBreda factory that has an interesting history in terms of rolling stock quality before Hitachi bought it?

No problem.
The early (GWR?) 802s were assembled in Pistoia at the former AnsaldoBreda factory, taken over by Hitachi (lack of capacity at Newton Aycliffe at the time).
Apart from the infamous Fyras, they also built the Frecciarossa ETR1000s which were jointly designed with Bombardier, and continue to do so.
If the Hitachi/Bombardier bid wins the contract for HS2 stock, based on ETR1000, they might well be in the running to build that fleet, or part of it.
They also have aluminium fabrication facilites, but whether they did any of that for the 802s I wouldn't know - more likely just assembly from Japanese parts I think.

 

[221101 Voyager]

Also, just thinking these issues happen when the train only goes at 125, what if they did the full 140?

There would be even worse wear and potentially something could've gone seriously wrong if a component gave way whilst going at speed.

 

[DelW]

I'm disappointed that modern technology could not have modelled stresses better to make this sort of unexpected failure a thing of the past. This seems akin to the 1950s DH Comet fatigues when all they had was a tank of water!

Modelling is only as good as input data...

Analysing stress concentrations at connections is always tricky. Finite Element Analysis (FEA) produces impressive coloured diagrams, but it's time consuming, expensive, and is dependent on the digital model accurately replicating the behaviour of the actual metal. Add the influence of variable long-term fatigue effects, and it becomes quite a difficult exercise.

Over many years of doing steelwork design, the only designs of mine that experienced issues were cases where I'd underestimated the stress distribution within connections, fortunately without serious consequences other than some hurried modifications.

 

[O L Leigh]

What I don't get is how brand new trains can have such a catastrophic failure/fault.

With all the R&D that happens these days and with all the technology we have how could such a issue not be found in the design process?

Catastrophic...?

Given that some services are slowly being reinstated, is it not at least reasonable to assume that units are being cleared as "safe" and returned to traffic as they are being checked? The delay is necessarily due to the number of units requiring inspection, the size of the workforce available to carry out those inspections and the location of the units. Clearly they are not all in need of immediate attention otherwise we'd have no units in traffic whatsoever.

Quite honestly, apart from the disruption caused by these inspections, I don't see that the hyperbole is necessary. It sounds like all that's happened is that a Hitachi engineer has spotted something out of the ordinary, called the office to report it and the manufacturer has taken the decision to temporarily ground the fleet pending checks on all units to establish the severity and distribution of the problem. Checks on the problematic areas will become part of the normal routine of inspection and maintenance until such time as remedial work can be carried out.

 

[OxtedL]

It's clear that GWR are focusing on giving accurate information to help their customers whilst LNER seem to be focusing on protecting the images and reputation of the trains that have been taken out of service as well as trying not to make it look as bad as it is for them as a company.

LNER are a much smaller company than GWR, about a fifth the size, with a much simpler organisation to run. This will be the significant factor (ability to mobilise their office teams at 3am on Saturday morning) rather than anything else.

 

[VauxhallNova]

How interesting that the TPE CAF fleets are dismissed as "endemically unreliable" when that suits the business plan of the operator, and yet now the entire Hitachi fleet has had to be temporarily withdrawn.

 

[Domh245]

No problem.
The early (GWR?) 802s were assembled in Pistoia at the former AnsaldoBreda factory, taken over by Hitachi (lack of capacity at Newton Aycliffe at the time).
Apart from the infamous Fyras, they also built the Frecciarossa ETR1000s which were jointly designed with Bombardier, and continue to do so.
If the Hitachi/Bombardier bid wins the contract for HS2 stock, based on ETR1000, they might well be in the running to build that fleet, or part of it.
They also have aluminium fabrication facilites, but whether they did any of that for the 802s I wouldn't know - more likely just assembly from Japanese parts I think.

Pistoia did all 802s, and did all the bodyshell welding for them. Would be surprising if it had any involvement with the HS2 contract as both Newton Aycliffe and Litchurch Lane have welding facilities now

Also, just thinking these issues happen when the train only goes at 125, what if they did the full 140?

There would be even worse wear and potentially something could've gone seriously wrong if a component gave way whilst going at speed.

Speed is irrelevant for jacking points - these parts shouldn't be getting (significantly) stressed whilst moving - though if this is symptomatic of a design with little tolerance, or poor manufacturing then yes it may be a concern

If they haven't left in healthly tolerances then that is a big oops...

It's certainly an eyebrow raiser - either the design was very optimistic or Kasado's ability to weld properly is not very good (might be worth checking the 385s off the back of these as well!)

 

[yorksrob]

Just an update for those who may be travelling along the ECML :
I've just received a message to say that 4 of the class 92 + mark 4 sets in storage will be coming into action for LNER as a result of the 80* being out of action whilst engineers check over the remaining trains.

I'm wondering whether these will be the GC liveried sets?

That's very pro-active. Just the thing !

 

[hwl]

Analysing stress concentrations at connections is always tricky. Finite Element Analysis (FEA) produces impressive coloured diagrams, but it's time consuming, expensive, and is dependent on the digital model accurately replicating the behaviour of the actual metal. Add the influence of variable long-term fatigue effects, and it becomes quite a difficult exercise.

Over many years of doing steelwork design, the only designs of mine that experienced issues were cases where I'd underestimated the stress distribution within connections, fortunately without serious consequences other than some hurried modifications.

Aluminium alloys are also somewhat less forgiving fatigue wise if you do get the calcs wrong...

 

[dk1]

Hull Trains all back to normal.

 

[DelW]

Is it also a result of working to a limit state rather than building in a tolerance?

Limit state design using load and material partial factors should give better modelling than applying a single global factor (aka Factor of Safety). Most structural design has used limit state and partial factors since about the 1970s.

 

[TRAX]

Speed is irrelevant for jacking points - these parts shouldn't be getting (significantly) stressed whilst moving - though if this is symptomatic of a design with little tolerance, or poor manufacturing then yes it may be a concern

You'd be surprised at how much and widely stresses are transmitted through structures.

 

[TheEdge]

TPE have managed it.

Well TPE haven't lost near enough their entire fleet in one foul swoop so nowhere near as many trains as LNER and GWR HS need to cover.

 

[55002]

Still only been one northbound departure out of Kings across since 0830, only 5 all day. There’s few more heading south now however

 

[D365]

Just an update for those who may be travelling along the ECML :
I've just received a message to say that 4 of the class 92 + mark 4 sets in storage will be coming into action for LNER as a result of the 80* being out of action whilst engineers check over the remaining trains.

I'm wondering whether these will be the GC liveried sets?

Class 92? That would be spectacular!

I kid of course, just an amusing typo.

 

[RobShipway]

Pistoia did all 802s, and did all the bodyshell welding for them. Would be surprising if it had any involvement with the HS2 contract as both Newton Aycliffe and Litchurch Lane have welding facilities now



Speed is irrelevant for jacking points - these parts shouldn't be getting (significantly) stressed whilst moving - though if this is symptomatic of a design with little tolerance, or poor manufacturing then yes it may be a concern



It's certainly an eyebrow raiser - either the design was very optimistic or Kasado's ability to weld properly is not very good (might be worth checking the 385s off the back of these as well!)

Don't you mean the 395's, rather than 385's?

 

[Mike395]

LNER are clearly expecting disruption into tomorrow- had an email from them essentially suggesting I postpone my journey unless essential.

 

[hwl]

Speed is irrelevant for jacking points - these parts shouldn't be getting (significantly) stressed whilst moving - though if this is symptomatic of a design with little tolerance, or poor manufacturing then yes it may be a concern

Welded to the other end of the bolster that had cracks in some cases due to the Yaw damper issues, cracks in bolster = not good... and for 2 different reasons
Sounding like designers not understanding anisotropy in forged microstructures and hence mechanical properties may be part of the problem.

 

[TRAX]

Don't you mean the 395's, rather than 385's?

No, 385s. These have been built in the same factories as the AT300s.

 

[bengley]

Don't you mean the 395's, rather than 385's?

385s are Hitachi too.