European Sleepers - What routes would be feasible?

[Austriantrain]

Which is 3-5 hours in day train terms where high speed lines exist for most of the journey.

Which in many cases, they do not.

And the upper limit for night trains is more around 14 hours.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Which in many cases, they do not.

And the upper limit for night trains is more around 14 hours.

Yes - Zurich-Prague overnight is c 14-15 hours [it could be quicker, but because it runs in combination with other routes, and there's shuffling of carriages between different services en route, it ends up sitting around for a couple of hours in the middle of the night at one point]; and that was absolutely fine.

The longest sleeper route I've been on was getting on for 1000 miles, Milan-Syracuse, which I think must have been 17 hours or so. It was bearable (especially since it was an easy, relaxing, and cheap journey), but I really could have done with a good buffet/bistro/restaurant car so as to have a nice Italian meal en route, rather than just my own picnic. (The coffee that was supplied was, however, excellent.)

 

[Peter Kelford]

and there's shuffling of carriages

That may actually be a good idea - splittable multiple units with through corridors.

 

[37201xoIM]

Sound points, Edwin - with a tendency for the gap also to shrink as 4 hours likely increases (on average, of course, not for everybody!) with a gradual turning away from flying.

 

[Austriantrain]

Yes - Zurich-Prague overnight is c 14-15 hours [it could be quicker, but because it runs in combination with other routes, and there's shuffling of carriages between different services en route, it ends up sitting around for a couple of hours in the middle of the night at one point]; and that was absolutely fine.

The longest sleeper route I've been on was getting on for 1000 miles, Milan-Syracuse, which I think must have been 17 hours or so. It was bearable (especially since it was an easy, relaxing, and cheap journey), but I really could have done with a good buffet/bistro/restaurant car so as to have a nice Italian meal en route, rather than just my own picnic. (The coffee that was supplied was, however, excellent.)

I would even argue that 8 hours is too short for most people, because you will barely get enough sleep (yes I know the Caledonian Sleeper to Glasgow/Edinburgh has a journey time of about 8 hours, but I would never take it, with daytime trains being so fast).

 

[Bald Rick]

yes I know the Caledonian Sleeper to Glasgow/Edinburg has a journey time of about 8 hours

It’s about 7, and often quicker than that.

 

[Austriantrain]

Thank you for clarifying.

 

[jamesontheroad]

Thello services Paris ► Milan, Venice, Florence, Rome permanently discontinued.

Mark Smith of Seat61 tweeted this a few days back, but it appears to have been confirmed to him. All Thello night train services were suspended in March, and now they are permanently discontinued.

This seems like such short-sightedness from Trenitalia. Aviation will not be returning to normal for many years, and the appeal of a private compartment will surely draw some people back to night trains quicker than daytime trains.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thello always struck me as "on edge" of viability. Perhaps OeBB will come along and make it a bit better?

 

[Bald Rick]

This seems like such short-sightedness from Trenitalia. Aviation will not be returning to normal for many years, and the appeal of a private compartment will surely draw some people back to night trains quicker than daytime trains.

And the reason aviation is not returning to normal is because people aren’t travelling.

If they are not travelling in sufficient numbers to support a decent air service, you can be sure they are not travelling in sufficient numbers to support a niche operation for a niche segment in the market.

 

[RT4038]

I travelled on the Thello about ten times in the 2014/5 period, mostly on business. It was a mediocre experience. Hopelessly unpunctual (only one eastbound, and no westbound, journeys arriving within 30 mins. of scheduled time; up to two and a half hours late), dining car attached hit and miss, staff arguing with each other, some carriages past their prime. I saw no other people looking like they were travelling on business. Most days there were quite a lot of people travelling in the couchette cars, and a fair few in the Sleepers, but the fares were not expensive. Every westbound trip, the non-white passengers were scrutinised by French immigration during a long stop at Modane, causing disturbance and delay.

Looking at the operating practices (separate Thello liveried loco to bring the stock from sidings into the Gare du Lyon, separate loco for the Milan to Venice section; booked to travel via Brig but mostly actually via Modane) , plus the 'delay repay' from the unpunctuality [I had lots of money back!], and the cheapish fares, I can't see how it can possibly have been on the edge of viability. The train had all the hallmarks of why Sleeper services across Europe were fading away.

Whilst there will be some to whom a private compartment will appeal, there wont be many who are prepared to pay the economic rate for such a facility. Far from Trenitalia being short-sighted, they are taking the pragmatic decision to get out of this loss making business which has no realistic hope of viability.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I travelled on the Thello about ten times in the 2014/5 period, mostly on business. It was a mediocre experience. Hopelessly unpunctual (only one eastbound, and no westbound, journeys arriving within 30 mins. of scheduled time; up to two and a half hours late), dining car attached hit and miss, staff arguing with each other, some carriages past their prime. I saw no other people looking like they were travelling on business. Most days there were quite a lot of people travelling in the couchette cars, and a fair few in the Sleepers, but the fares were not expensive. Every westbound trip, the non-white passengers were scrutinised by French immigration during a long stop at Modane, causing disturbance and delay.

That was the impression I had too, all a bit like a random night D-Zug in the 90s. Not a sales pitch at all - a fun experience for a student aged person who would kip on a park bench if it came to it, but no good for business travellers who would just fly. OeBB seem to be going a bit more premium (though the absence of a restaurant car is a shame) and so might shake that sort of reputation off.

 

[37201xoIM]

Those experiences of Thello in terms of quality and punctuality sound very much par for the course, and as a full open-access operation with limited integration with the established operators its withdrawal doens't seem wildly surprising, does it, despite the longer-term tide seeming to be turning.

Suspect the route may return in a few years' time, but hopefully with a somewhat different product.

 

[jamesontheroad]

And the reason aviation is not returning to normal is because people aren’t travelling.

If they are not travelling in sufficient numbers to support a decent air service, you can be sure they are not travelling in sufficient numbers to support a niche operation for a niche segment in the market.

Not now, but one or two years from now, the railway has to be ready to capitalise on the post-COVID return to travel. Thello will have a chance, but not if it gives up now.

On the subject of the generally lacklustre experiences, it seems odd that a Trenitalia company would be so bad at running a night train when they do a reasonable job of their own domestic night trains.

 

[AlbertBeale]

That may actually be a good idea - splittable multiple units with through corridors.

Yes indeed. I didn't mention the shuffling of carriages to different destinations (meaning, in this case, sitting around in between times) because I saw it as a negative - it makes lots of sense where there isn't a whole trainload for one route - but in order to explain why the Zurich-Prague journey seemed to take quite a long time for the distance.

I would even argue that 8 hours is too short for most people, because you will barely get enough sleep ...

Yes - if a sleeper can do an end-to-end journey in 8 hours, I'd rather it slowed down a bit!

 

[jopsuk]

and as a full open-access operation with limited integration with the established operators

Though wholly owned by Trenitalia.

Related, Thello have also announced their day trains will be ending at the start of next year, so it looks like the whole company is dead. It would be good if this is precursor to Trenitalia running similar services directly given they do still have a fairly extensive domestic nigh train network- but that would take vision like OBB have, without the advantages of being a hub for Europe

 

[HSTEd]

Does Nightjet actually make money?
Does anyone know?

 

[37201xoIM]

Speaking of journey lengths, Praha - Rijeka isn't short, at over 15 hours, and has done rather well:

RegioJet’s train to Croatia is a sell-out summer success

EUROPE: Open access operator RegioJet's summer service linking the Czech Republic and Slovakia with Croatia's Adriatic coast carried more than 60 000 passengers on 120 trains during its first season of operation. RegioJet announced the summer-only overnight service on June 1, and 30 000 tickets...

www.railwaygazette.com

- albeit perhaps skewed by people delighted to escape Prague's lockdown!

 

[87015]

Speaking of journey lengths, Praha - Rijeka isn't short, at over 15 hours, and has done rather well:

RegioJet’s train to Croatia is a sell-out summer success

EUROPE: Open access operator RegioJet's summer service linking the Czech Republic and Slovakia with Croatia's Adriatic coast carried more than 60 000 passengers on 120 trains during its first season of operation. RegioJet announced the summer-only overnight service on June 1, and 30 000 tickets...

www.railwaygazette.com

- albeit perhaps skewed by people delighted to escape Prague's lockdown!

even more skewed as an example of the alleged way ahead by a complete lack of bedvans... Just some hanging ex CNL couchettes and seats, plus many many crates of Bernard to give anyone a chance of enjoying/enduring it!

 

[popeter45]

That may actually be a good idea - splittable multiple units with through corridors.

yea I could see something like a DSB IC3/IR4-esk Sleeper EMU

 

[Austriantrain]

Does Nightjet actually make money?
Does anyone know?

ÖBB say they break even.

 

[RT4038]

ÖBB say they break even.

Does this 'break even' include the subsidy paid by the Austrian Govt. for the Nightjet mileage operated within Austria?

 

[Austriantrain]

Does this 'break even' include the subsidy paid by the Austrian Govt. for the Nightjet mileage operated within Austria?

Of course. It is not a subsidy though, but a Public Service Obligation.

 

[Bald Rick]

If course. It is not a subsidy though, but a Public Service Obligation.

As we say here: Potato / Potarto!

 

[Austriantrain]

As we say here: Potato / Potarto!

So what?

 

[RT4038]

So what?

i.e. same thing, pronounced differently.

 

[Austriantrain]

i.e. same thing, pronounced differently.

I know. Thing is, they are absolute not the same. Calling a PSO a subsidy is the same as calling „government buys laptops“ a subsidy. PSO are payments for services rendered, not a subsidy.

 

[RT4038]

I know. Thing is, they are absolute not the same. Calling a PSO a subsidy is the same as calling „government buys laptops“ a subsidy. PSO are payments for services rendered, not a subsidy.

If the government buys laptops, for use in providing government services then it is an operating cost of the Government. If the Government are buying laptops for the population, so the population do not have to purchase them (or pay the commercial price for them) then it is a subsidy.

The PSO is provided because the fare revenue from the population does not cover the operating costs. Therefore it is a subsidy by another name.

 

[Austriantrain]

If the government buys laptops, for use in providing government services then it is an operating cost of the Government. If the Government are buying laptops for the population, so the population do not have to purchase them (or pay the commercial price for them) then it is a subsidy.

It‘s not. It is a regular commercial contract to buy laptops, in order to provide a social service. The laptop provider does not receive any subsidy at all.

Neither does the PSO provider.

 

[RT4038]

It‘s not. It is a regular commercial contract to buy laptops, in order to provide a social service. The laptop provider does not receive any subsidy at all.

Neither does the PSO provider.

The PSO provider is receiving money which is not fare revenue from the users of the service. Whether the provider or the passenger is receiving the subsidy, it is still subsidy. If the Government did not pay the money, the service would not be provided.