First class TPE advance not valid in Avanti 1st due to disruption.

[cf111]

Oh dear. I would put in a complaint about that; it probably needs to become more voluminous for anything to happen. @cf111 have you heard back yet?

Nothing yet I'm afraid.

 

[Mak1981]

I wonder what avanti will be advising their customers when the situation is reversed, yes a lot of tpe cancellations the now, but avanti do cancel as well and do get ticket acceptance on tpe

 

[sciisfun]

I had the exact same thing a couple of years ago when the gerald was canceled between Cardiff and Hollyhead, we got so far, then turfed onto the then virgin trains service, the first class host was happy with us being there, since our tickets were advanced first, and this was the next service, the guard came through, took one look at our tickets, told us to move, and took our hummus boxes (the only thing left, and my dinner as i was very much looking forward to a nice 3 course meal), after pulling up the terms of carriage and showing him our tickets were indeed valid, he then threatened to get BTP involved, and then sulked off to the other end of the train when I held my ground! never heard back about that complaint.

 

[Falcon1200]

I don't entirely get why Avanti couldn't give the TPE passengers the TPE offering, i.e. tea, coffee and water, and no food. That's what MKC-Euston passengers get, so they are capable of looking at tickets and seeing what you're entitled to.

I have never, ever, known Avanti (or Virgin before them) catering staff to check passengers' tickets before offering them food and drink (unlike on other operators, eg XC).

holders of TPE 1st class ticket could travel in the unreserved 1st class coach on the train, coach G (I think).

There is no unreserved First Class coach now, as there are only 2 such vehicles per set, in fact finding an unreserved seat at all is not always easy.

But of course, passengers displaced through no fault of their own should be accommodated, whenever possible, in the same class as their ticket.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Just how many first class TPE ticket holders (if say, the latter's 1212 service from Edinburgh is cancelled and had been fully booked in first class) might Avanti be expected to accommodate on their following 1252 departure?

 

[Watershed]

Just how many first class TPE ticket holders (if say, the latter's 1212 service from Edinburgh is cancelled and had been fully booked in first class) might Avanti be expected to accommodate on their following 1252 departure?

TPE have 24 First Class seats, plus 2 wheelchair spaces, on the Nova 1 and 2 trains which operate the West Coast route. So a maximum of 26 passengers.

 

[cf111]

After nearly two months of back and fore with Avanti they have passed me on to TPE . This is the first time I've had contact from someone who isn't cobbling letters together from a word bank. Part of it is below:

Where ticket acceptance is agreed with another Train Operating Company, this is us agreeing to carry the passengers for that Train Operating Company to their destination, this is not an agreement to honour the class of their reservation, this is just an agreement to allow travel on tickets valid for their service to assist that Train Operating Company with minimising disruption on the rail network. I would also like to advise that your seat reservation agreed with our Social Media team does not make your TransPennine Express ticket valid for First Class on our service, we merely agreed ticket acceptance to carry passengers. I apologise that this information was not conveyed at the time and understand how this would be frustrating for you. Please be assured that I have also logged this element of your complaint for the attention of the social media team to assist them in giving the correct information to passengers.



From this I would like to advise that as you are a First Class Customer of TransPennine Express, holding a First Class ticket for a TransPennine Express service, and you were unable to access First Class on this travel due to the cancellation of your TPE service, the liability to compensate for the lack of service received would be for the attention of the Train Operating Company responsible for your intended jour ney,

The central point I want Avanti to answer is what gives them the authority, either in the NRCoT or published elsewhere, to refuse conveyance in available, non-declassified first class accommodation while accepting tickets for another operator.

This is also the first time either myself or Avanti have mentioned compensation which I have no interest in, I just want them to either point to the bit of the terms and conditions which means I am wrong or admit that they are wrong! I would accept a biscuit and a small bottle of water in the post if one was offered however.

 

[yorkie]

As is too often the case with customer service from train companies, they are talking nonsense.

They don't like to admit they're wrong.

 

[LOL The Irony]

After nearly two months of back and fore with Avanti they have passed me on to TPE . This is the first time I've had contact from someone who isn't cobbling letters together from a word bank. Part of it is below:

So the people who booted you out of First Class (Avanti) have sent you to the people who cancelled the service in the first place (TPE), even though this is their problem? Looks like it may be time to refer Avanti to the ombudsman.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So the people who booted you out of First Class (Avanti) have sent you to the people who cancelled the service in the first place (TPE), even though this is their problem? Looks like it may be time to refer Avanti to the ombudsman.

If it is indeed true that carriage in Standard was the agreement, and TPE agreed this, then TPE would presumably be liable for the difference between the First Class and Standard fares just as if First had not been provided on their train for whatever reason (e.g. it was locked out due to all 4 doors being inoperative).

However I'd still dispute that Standard Premium isn't broadly equivalent to TPE's 1st. It's 2+1 seating in a far nicer layout. We're talking a cup of tea and a biscuit. Perhaps they could put a Greggs or Costa voucher for a fiver in the post to cover that.

I do not believe there is any entitlement to freebies in this sort of case if the TOC doesn't want to offer them. Not being able to enjoy food/drink the OP hadn't paid for seems to be the root of this complaint. TPE offers tea, coffee, water and biccies, so this is the limit of "comparable transport conditions". A meal is not an entitlement.

 

[cf111]

If it is indeed true that carriage in Standard was the agreement, and TPE agreed this, then TPE would presumably be liable for the difference between the First Class and Standard fares just as if First had not been provided on their train for whatever reason (e.g. it was locked out due to all 4 doors being inoperative).

However I'd still dispute that Standard Premium isn't broadly equivalent to TPE's 1st. It's 2+1 seating in a far nicer layout. We're talking a cup of tea and a biscuit. Perhaps they could put a Greggs or Costa voucher for a fiver in the post to cover that.

I do not believe there is any entitlement to freebies in this sort of case if the TOC doesn't want to offer them. Not being able to enjoy food/drink the OP hadn't paid for seems to be the root of this complaint. TPE offers tea, coffee, water and biccies, so this is the limit of "comparable transport conditions". A meal is not an entitlement.

A TOC would quite correctly point to the NRCoT if you chose to travel on the wrong train on an advance ticket, for example. I don't care about the cup of tea and a biscuit, I would just like the TOCs to apply their terms fairly to both parties.

Accommodation is either standard or first, even Avanti accept that this was standard class accommodation as they haven't even raised it as a possible "defence", for want of a better word.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A TOC would quite correctly point to the NRCoT if you chose to travel on the wrong train on an advance ticket, for example. I don't care about the cup of tea and a biscuit, I would just like the TOCs to apply their terms fairly to both parties.

Can you quote the parts of the NRCoT or EU law that entitle you to this arrangement where you have a TPE Only ticket? Do you for instance expect a fancier RRB if travelling 1st?

It's not Standard class accommodation; just try sitting there with a Standard ticket.

 

[AlterEgo]

Can you quote the parts of the NRCoT or EU law that entitle you to this arrangement where you have a TPE Only ticket? Do you for instance expect a fancier RRB if travelling 1st?

No but if you were put into a RRB with a first class ticket you'd get a refund of the difference in fares.

 

[cf111]

Can you quote the parts of the NRCoT or EU law that entitle you to this arrangement where you have a TPE Only ticket? Do you for instance expect a fancier RRB if travelling 1st?

It's not Standard class accommodation; just try sitting there with a Standard ticket.

I'm asking Avanti why they wouldn't let me travel in first class on a first class ticket they were accepting on a servos they booked me a seat on. You're raising a completely irrelevant point because I did not ask for that remedy, nor would I. If one applies a level reasonableness test then one is clearly reasonable and one is not

The NRCoT makes no distinction between toc-specific and open first class tickets that are relevant to the issue here.

 

[Haywain]

It's not Standard class accommodation; just try sitting there with a Standard ticket.

It's also not first class accommodation, otherwise you would need a first class ticket to sit there.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's also not first class accommodation, otherwise you would need a first class ticket to sit there.

It is however "comparable transport conditions" per the EU law under consideration; it's 2+1 layout with extra legroom. The only thing I think the OP could be picky about is a cup of tea and a biccy, so chuck them a £5 Costabucks voucher to buy themselves one.

The precise names of classes of service are irrelevant; the EU law will be made on the basis that the various EU carriers have all sorts of classes of service with all manner of different names. That Avanti have two premium classes is not relevant as such; they got one that was comparable to TPE's offering, as TPE's offering does not include full catering.

I'm asking Avanti why they wouldn't let me travel in first class on a first class ticket they were accepting on a servos they booked me a seat on.

And their totally reasonable answer is "because we agreed Standard Premium with TPE, because Standard Premium is comparable to TPE's First Class and the on-board service is similar (a cup of tea and a biscuit are "de minimis"), as well as that we have more capacity in it".

They'd have been within their rights to agree Standard, but then TPE would have had to refund the difference in fare as per a RRB.

 

[Haywain]

It is however "comparable transport conditions" per the EU law under consideration; it's 2+1 layout with extra legroom. The only thing I think the OP could be picky about is a cup of tea and a biccy, so chuck them a £5 Costabucks voucher to buy themselves one.

The precise names of classes of service are irrelevant; the EU law will be made on the basis that the various EU carriers have all sorts of classes of service with all manner of different names. That Avanti have two premium classes is not relevant as such; they got one that was comparable to TPE's offering, as TPE's offering does not include full catering.

If that was the agreement there may be some basis in what you say, but nothing of that nature was communicated to the OP by either train company involved in advance of boarding and in that I believe they (Avanti principally, but also TPE IF there was such an agreement) are firmly in the wrong.

 

[Wolfie]

Can you quote the parts of the NRCoT or EU law that entitle you to this arrangement where you have a TPE Only ticket? Do you for instance expect a fancier RRB if travelling 1st?

It's not Standard class accommodation; just try sitting there with a Standard ticket.

Your interpretation is not consistent with the thrust of Section 31 NRCOT and Avanti would almost certainly come a very nasty cropper in Court given the general presumption of consumer law. The problem for Avanti is that NRCOT, which contractually underpins all rail tickets, was written with a presumption that there are two classes of tickets. Then they chose to introduce a third class...... Frankly the legal consequences of that are their problem! Intuitively, to the "man on the Clapham omnibus", any ticket with "Standard" in its name is NOT First Class.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Your interpretation is not consistent with the thrust of Section 31 NRCOT and Avanti would almost certainly come a very nasty cropper in Court given the general presumption of consumer law. The problem for Avanti is that NRCOT, which contractually underpins all rail tickets, was written with a presumption that there are two classes of tickets. Then they chose to introduce a third class...... Frankly the legal consequences of that are their problem! Intuitively, to the "man on the Clapham omnibus", any ticket with "Standard" in its name is NOT First Class.

That still doesn't entitle the OP to travel in 1st, but it might entitle them to a refund down to the Standard Class fare from TPE.

However they'd probably need to take TPE to Court to get it, and the Court might not look well on them because it is clearly being finiticky rather than genuinely about the quality of accommodation, which most people would consider superior to TPE's 1st. It would be sueing over a cup of tea and a biscuit, quite literally.

As an aside, NRCoT Section 31 clearly needs rewording thus:

31. Travelling In Standard Class a lower class of Accommodation with A First Class Ticket for a higher class

31.1 If you have a first class Ticket for a given class of accommodation and the train service you use is shown as offering first
that class of accommodation at www.nationalrail.co.uk, but when you travel first that class of
accommodation is not provided or is otherwise fully occupied, you may claim a refund.
The minimum refund to which you will be entitled will be the difference between the
price of the first class Ticket purchased and the cheapest valid standard class walk-up
fare available on the service you used for the class of accommodation in which you travelled. You must contact the Train Company you
travelled with to notify them of your claim within 28 days of the date that you travelled.

31.2 If you hold a first class Season Ticket, the minimum to which you will be entitled will
be a refund of the difference between the first class and standard class fare relevant Anytime (Day) Single fares plus any relevant supplements
for the journey concerned.

31.3 In determining equivalence of accommodation, the seating and on-board services should be taken into account.

 

[Hardcastle]

I travelled from Edinburgh 16/6 on a Avanti service & announcements where made that passengers off the previous cancelled Trans Pennine service use standard premium so am guessing its a regular agreement.

 

[cf111]

That still doesn't entitle the OP to travel in 1st, but it might entitle them to a refund down to the Standard Class fare from TPE.

However they'd probably need to take TPE to Court to get it, and the Court might not look well on them because it is clearly being finiticky rather than genuinely about the quality of accommodation, which most people would consider superior to TPE's 1st. It would be sueing over a cup of tea and a biscuit, quite literally.

I make my meagre stipend by being finickity in court so if it comes to it I'll enjoy the day out .

 

[Starmill]

And their totally reasonable answer is "because we agreed Standard Premium with TPE, because Standard Premium is comparable to TPE's First Class and the on-board service is similar (a cup of tea and a biscuit are "de minimis"), as well as that we have more capacity in it".

They'd have been within their rights to agree Standard, but then TPE would have had to refund the difference in fare as per a RRB.

This is wrong though. If it were the case it would have said so in the information provided at the time.

As it did not say that, it's assumed that First Class tickets are for First Class accommodation. Avanti are just claiming this is the agreement I suspect in order to deflect criticism.

 

[Wolfie]

That still doesn't entitle the OP to travel in 1st, but it might entitle them to a refund down to the Standard Class fare from TPE.

However they'd probably need to take TPE to Court to get it, and the Court might not look well on them because it is clearly being finiticky rather than genuinely about the quality of accommodation, which most people would consider superior to TPE's 1st. It would be sueing over a cup of tea and a biscuit, quite literally.

Contractually NRCOT clearly states that a First Class ticket holder is entitled to use First Class accommodation. You can try to word dance around all that you want but Avanti themselves draw a very clear distinction (website etc) between First Class and Standard Premium, ergo the latter is non-compliant with NRCOT.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Contractually NRCOT clearly states that a First Class ticket holder is entitled to use First Class accommodation.

Contractually, the holder of a TPE Only First Class ticket is not entitled to use any accommodation on an Avanti train.

Special arrangements are made to permit this where it is necessary, and the entitlements are determined by that agreement between TOCs, notwithstanding that it might invoke the entitlement for a partial refund from TPE. That arrangement was for Standard Premium to be used. TPE might instead have arranged a bus, for instance.

 

[Wolfie]

Contractually, the holder of a TPE Only First Class ticket is not entitled to use any accommodation on an Avanti train.

Special arrangements are made to permit this where it is necessary. That arrangement was for Standard Premium to be used. TPE might instead have arranged a bus, for instance.

Perhaps the next step is to approach the Ombudsman then take legal action against both Avanti and TPE. MCOL is a wonderful thing....

 

[Starmill]

That still doesn't entitle the OP to travel in 1st, but it might entitle them to a refund down to the Standard Class fare from TPE.

There's no might about it. A refund of the difference between First Class and Standard Class is always payable if First Class wasn't provided when it was scheduled to be. It does not matter why First Class wasn't provided - wrong type of train, it's already full, train cancelled and put on another operator or in road transport etc. I note that above you've asked if people expect First Class on rail replacement bus services. The answer is no, because they will be refunded the difference instead.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Perhaps the next step is to approach the Ombudsman then take legal action against both Avanti and TPE. MCOL is a wonderful thing....

Over a cup of tea and a biscuit. De minimis non curat lex...

There's no might about it. A refund of the difference between First Class and Standard is always payable if First Class wasn't provided when it was scheduled to be. I note that above you've asked if people expect First Class on rail replacement bus services. The answer is no, because they will be refunded the difference instead.

It can be argued that the OP would be entitled to a refund to (equivalent Standard TPE fare plus whatever Avanti charge for the SP supplement for their journey), IF lower than what they paid. It can't be argued that they had a right to sit in First with a ticket that, other than by specific agreement, was not valid on the Avanti train at all.

 

[Starmill]

That arrangement was for Standard Premium to be used. TPE might instead have arranged a bus, for instance.

As above, this is highly doubtful. What's happened is that Avanti agreed ticket acceptance and forgot to specify that holders of First Class tickets restricted to TPE should use Standard Premium. Then later someone's had an "oh sh**" moment and tried to backtrack gracelessly.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As above, this is highly doubtful. What's happened is that Avanti agreed ticket acceptance and forgot to specify that holders of First Class tickets restricted to TPE should use Standard Premium. Then later someone's had an "oh sh**" moment and tried to backtrack gracelessly.

The embarrassment was unnecessary - i.e. it seems they forgot to announce it. That would perhaps justify an apology for the failure to announce it.

Having read back, good customer service would, as the OP requested a reservation, have been to honour that reservation as it was the company's error, of course. However, that doesn't make the principle of TPE ticket acceptance being in SP wrong. Nor does it necessarily make the OP entitled to any more than an apology and at a push the cost of a cup of tea and a biccy.

 

[cf111]

There's no might about it. A refund of the difference between First Class and Standard Class is always payable if First Class wasn't provided when it was scheduled to be. It does not matter why First Class wasn't provided - wrong type of train, it's already full, train cancelled and put on another operator or in road transport etc. I note that above you've asked if people expect First Class on rail replacement bus services. The answer is no, because they will be refunded the difference instead.

The NRCoT is quite specific with this at 15.6 which provides for refunds when first class accommodation "has been declassified or you are unable to sit in it for all or part of your journey because it is full", neither of which were true on that day (emphasis mine). A grey area perhaps.