First Group Sheffield - London via Retford open access proposal

[Killingworth]

More frequent services? I don't think that's on the table. Given the number of new trains ordered, and the path availability at the London end, surely Nottingham and Sheffield will keep their current 2tph each to St. Pancras when the new class 810's are rolled out?

More frequent services than First/Hull Trains.

 

[The Middle]

A dedicated page now appearing at

Sheffield Route Proposal | Hull Trains

FirstGroup has submitted the first phase of an application for a new open access rail service between London and Sheffield to the Office of Rail and Road (ORR).

www.hulltrains.co.uk

 

[CarrotPie]

A dedicated page now appearing at

Sheffield Route Proposal | Hull Trains

FirstGroup has submitted the first phase of an application for a new open access rail service between London and Sheffield to the Office of Rail and Road (ORR).

www.hulltrains.co.uk

Two things are interesting here:
* 222s appearing in the concept art
* The brand name "Sheffield by Hull Trains" being used

However, I will caveat those with this:

Train type, branding and fleet name are for illustrative purposes only at this early stage of our application.

 

[trainswitheddy]

Two things are interesting here:
* 222s appearing in the concept art
* The brand name "Sheffield by Hull Trains" being used

However, I will caveat those with this:

Be interesting to see what they go with as the final name. The livery on the 222 doesn't look so bad.

 

[mike57]

* The brand name "Sheffield by Hull Trains" being used

Makes sense at this stage, the people who use Retford are already familiar with the Hull Trains brand, and I suspect a lot of people who live to the east of Sheffield will use Retford for getting to London rather than Sheffield as its quicker and access is easier.

What are the chances of it being successful?

 

[ricoblade]

Makes sense at this stage, the people who use Retford are already familiar with the Hull Trains brand, and I suspect a lot of people who live to the east of Sheffield will use Retford for getting to London rather than Sheffield as its quicker and access is easier.

What are the chances of it being successful?

I think the Woodhouse stop is there to create a railhead for the East Sheffielders (bandit country to me!), though I'm not sure how much room there is for parking. Maybe the mooted new Waverley station could become that and the intermediate stop.

 

[Meerkat]

From a quick look at satellite views none of Retford, Worksop, and Woodhouse have any significant parking capacity, which must restrict the market for this service a bit.
Will they make Retford down platform a bit nicer - from photos it looks a bit bleak, especially looking away from the station at scruffy sidings.

 

[ChrisC]

From a quick look at satellite views none of Retford, Worksop, and Woodhouse have any significant parking capacity, which must restrict the market for this service a bit.

According to National Rail Retford has 84 parking spaces, Worksop has 100 and Woodhouse just 10. I would think that the car park at Retford is already very well used and probably gets quite full. Worksop has a large car park, for a relatively small station, and so there is some potential there. I’ve never seen Worksop station car park very full whenever I have been there. Looking at the small car park at Woodhouse, would anyone actually want to leave a car parked there, especially if they would be returning after dark.

 

[Killingworth]

According to National Rail Retford has 84 parking spaces, Worksop has 100 and Woodhouse just 10. I would think that the car park at Retford is already very well used and probably gets quite full. Worksop has a large car park, for a relatively small station, and so there is some potential there. I’ve never seen Worksop station car park very full whenever I have been there. Looking at the small car park at Woodhouse, would anyone actually want to leave a car parked there, especially if they would be returning after dark.

Woodhouse less than 50k annual passenger entries, Worksop and Retford nearer 500k.

All westbound trains out of Hull stop at Brough. When I lived near Hull I never considered going to Paragon. Hull Trains know that will work similarly for them with south-east side of Sheffield residents using Worksop and Retford. (Similar effect at Dore for Manchester bound travellers from south-west Sheffield.)

I'm sure they wil pick up business but lack of frequency may go against them.

Pathing is going to be the critical issue. Services coming into Sheffield from the Meadowhall direction are regularly late, partially due to congestion, see; https://www.recenttraintimes.co.uk/...tAvg=Mea&MetSpr=RT&MxScDu=&MxSvAg=10&MnScCt=2

Adding a few more trains a day through the throat from Nunnery probably won't make a major difference but they wouldn't help the cases for the restoration of a second hourly stopping train to Doncaster, the proposed hourly service from Chesterfield via Barrow Hill or the desired second fast trains to Leeds and Hull.

Platform space is another issue. The Hope Valley Capacity Scheme is about to deliver a second path between Sheffield and Manchester. Great, but there are now capacity issues in Manchester, Stockport... and Sheffield!

How many of the car drivers to London would be attracted away is hard to tell. I suspect not very many. Those wanting to be in central London will usually take the train. It's journeys to less central locations where the car scores.

 

[YorksLad12]

According to National Rail Retford has 84 parking spaces, Worksop has 100 and Woodhouse just 10. I would think that the car park at Retford is already very well used and probably gets quite full. Worksop has a large car park, for a relatively small station, and so there is some potential there. I’ve never seen Worksop station car park very full whenever I have been there. Looking at the small car park at Woodhouse, would anyone actually want to leave a car parked there, especially if they would be returning after dark.

If only there was an open access operator willing to improve the car parks as part of an application...

 

[Bartsimho]

Honestly thinking about this I don't see how it isn't too abstractive.
It would take from Sheffield-London, Chesterfield-London (due to it being used as a railhead) and while some have said it will look to pull out of South-East Sheffield the entire south of Sheffield is pulled towards Chesterfield anyway abstracting from that.
The ORR data saying Sheffield-Kings Cross does seem slightly dodgy when it requires a change and is slower than the direct service. As for the comment about them using mobile data to help track the gps doesn't work too well inside the London Terminii and they are so close together it could quite easily be misattributing

 

[telstarbox]

I think the GPS data is for the road trips not rail - there are commercial data sources such as Tomtom.

 

[Philip]

Surely Woodhouse will act as a London service railhead for places like Handsworth, Beighton, Mosborough & Renishaw?

 

[Killingworth]

Surely Woodhouse will act as a London service railhead for places like Handsworth, Beighton, Mosborough & Renishaw?

Possibly, although the infrequency of the service may detract, as it might also at Worksop. Driving to Chesterfield or Newark woukd offer better choices.

It seems likely that many travellers may find it more useful to travel outward with one TOC and return on another. From Sheffield there are 2 EMR tph to St Pancras. From Newark LNER and Hull Trains combined offer 1 tph to Kings Cross.

Timings and price will be crucial. All TOCs may benefit from the competition.

 

[QSK19]

Two things are interesting here:
* 222s appearing in the concept art

So now we know where the 222s are going - and we were all wrong .

Would be funny if the 2221xx did end up running the services - would be like them returning home (unless the Trigger and the broom theory* applies, in that they’ve changed so much since their HT days that they’re not the same train)

* NB: 17 new heads and 14 new handles before anybody wonders how many changes Trigger’s broom had

 

[Bletchleyite]

So now we know where the 222s are going - and we were all wrong .

One or two of them potentially. They won't need all of them for 2tpd!

 

[liamf656]

So now we know where the 222s are going - and we were all wrong .

Things can still change as it's early days. LUMO and Grand Central both included 222s in their early plans and neither materialised

 

[D365]

Surely Woodhouse will act as a London service railhead for places like Handsworth, Beighton, Mosborough & Renishaw?

If Woodhouse had parking, yes.

 

[QSK19]

One or two of them potentially. They won't need all of them for 2tpd!

Maybe if this did come to fruition, any trains that got taken from the 2221xx selection would, in a way, be returning home!

Things can still change as it's early days. LUMO and Grand Central both included 222s in their early plans and neither materialised

I did actually mean that as a joke, but yes point taken - just because they put it on a render and/or a plan, doesn’t mean it would come to fruition!

 

[dk1]

One or two of them potentially. They won't need all of them for 2tpd!

If I was EMR I’d do some sort of advertising campaign as the Kings Cross service launches offering bargain advance fares travelling on our twice hourly brand new trains or twice a day with them on our cast offs

 

[QSK19]

If I was EMR I’d do some sort of advertising campaign as the Kings Cross service launches offering bargain advance fares travelling on our twice hourly brand new trains or twice a day with them on our cast offs

Haha - and for once EMR is not the one getting the cast offs!

 

[dk1]

Haha - and for once EMR is not the one getting the cast offs!

To be fair MML had 222s & 170s before them from new. Not sure if HSTs were from a new batch in the 1980s or cascaded.

 

[dosxuk]

If I was EMR I’d do some sort of advertising campaign as the Kings Cross service launches offering bargain advance fares travelling on our twice hourly brand new trains or twice a day with them on our cast offs

Assuming they manage to get the 810's running before this service launches...

 

[dk1]

Assuming they manage to get the 810's running before this service launches...

Another 18mths even if it gets approved so fingers crossed they get the new fleet up & running by then.

Thinking about it, if the 810s aren’t in service the 222s won’t get released.

 

[QSK19]

To be fair MML had 222s & 170s before them from new. Not sure if HSTs were from a new batch in the 1980s or cascaded.

Yep, it’s more the non-IC side that has suffered the “cast offs” aspect - aside from the ex-LNER HST debacle, IC has done very well.

Though back onto the topic of HT’s
Sheffield proposal, wouldn’t the easiest rolling stock intention be to place a follow-on order for 2 or 3 more 802s in order to keep fleet standardisation?

Another 18mths even if it gets approved so fingers crossed they get the new fleet up & running by then.

Thinking about it, if the 810s aren’t in service the 222s won’t get released.

If we’re talking about only 1 or 2 222s, maybe HT could pick them up midway through the 222>810 transition? That’s unless the lease for all 27 ends at the same time and hence HT couldn’t obtain even the first 222s to be released until EMR’s lease was up?

 

[dk1]

Yep, it’s more the non-IC side that has suffered the “cast offs” aspect - aside from the ex-LNER HST debacle, IC has done very well.

Though back onto the topic of HT’s
Sheffield proposal, wouldn’t the easiest rolling stock intention be to place a follow-on order for 2 or 3 more 802s in order to keep fleet standardisation?

Yes that would be a perfect & sensible solution although not sure how that stands up financially.

 

[tiptoptaff]

Yes that would be a perfect & sensible solution although not sure how that stands up financially.

It would probably need to be part of a wider order, including additional units for TPE and GWR and/or additional trailer vehicles for GWR (lengthen some sets, gain additionals now they're being used on locals etc)

 

[liamf656]

If I was EMR I’d do some sort of advertising campaign as the Kings Cross service launches offering bargain advance fares travelling on our twice hourly brand new trains or twice a day with them on our cast offs

Or HT could be really cheeky and run 802s to Sheffield with 222s back on the Hull route! *hides*

 

[dk1]

Or HT could be really cheeky and run 802s to Sheffield with 222s back on the Hull route! *hides*

The Pioneers ride again.

 

[IanXC]

Looking at the F3s included in the application they're interestingly numbering the services as if many more trains are on their agenda in the future:

SX
1A82 0920 Sheffield to Kings Cross
1A86 1654 Sheffield to Kings Cross
1G03 1248 Kings Cross to Sheffield
1G07 1956 Kings Cross to Sheffield

SO
1A82 0920 Sheffield to Kings Cross
1A86 1654 Sheffield to Kings Cross
1G03 1248 Kings Cross to Sheffield
1G07 2027 Kings Cross to Sheffield

SuO
1A82 0957 Sheffield to Kings Cross
1A86 1714 Sheffield to Kings Cross
1G03 1256 Kings Cross to Sheffield
1G07 1956 Kings Cross to Sheffield

Of course 'G' for a planned service on the Eastern Region is total nonsense. Really these should be 'J' but whereas Northern Scarborough to Sheffield are from 1J3x upwards Monday to Saturday on Sundays they're 1J0x for no apparent reason.

It's also interesting quite how much dwell time some of these trains have, for instance SX 1A82 has 2 minutes at Woodhouse, 6 at Worksop and 15 at Retford!

https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blob.core.windows.net/sale-of-access-rights/Consultations/Current%20Track%20Access%20Consultations/05.01.2024%20-%20Hull%20Trains%20-%20Section%2022A%20-%2027th%20SA%20-%20Closes%2005.02.2024/HT%20Sheffield%20F3%20Prints.pdf