First Group Sheffield - London via Retford open access proposal

[duffield]

Hull trains has announced provisional timetable from Sheffield to London

Hull Trains Proposes New Sheffield-London Route: Direct Rail Service to Boost Connectivity in Worksop and Woodhouse - Travel And Tour World

Hull Trains proposes a new direct service between Sheffield and London King's Cross, aiming to boost regional connectivity. Discover how this impacts local and global travel.

www.travelandtourworld.com

The final service from London to Sheffield actually appears to be timed slightly faster end to end than the fastest EMR services. Southbound services are not so good timewise, presumably because they sit at Retford for a while.

 

[GardenRail]

Another pointless service. Just leave the job to EMR. Sheffield doesn't have enough capacity for such North end departures. And it's going to generally take longer than EMR. It will never leave on time because of the traffic before it.

 

[simonsays]

Another pointless service. Just leave the job to EMR. Sheffield doesn't have enough capacity for such North end departures. And it's going to generally take longer than EMR. It will never leave on time because of the traffic before it.

Bit like your post, if the company has decided it can make it work that's up to them to try. If it doesn't they will soon stop.

Sheffield station is well overdue a revised layout some bidirectional signalling would improve the flow. Ideally the north end will be looked at as the wires get nearer !

 

[zwk500]

Bit like your post, if the company has decided it can make it work that's up to them to try. If it doesn't they will soon stop.

The problem is if they can't make it work they stuff everybody else up in the process.

Sheffield station is well overdue a revised layout some bidirectional signalling would improve the flow. Ideally the north end will be looked at as the wires get nearer !

There's only so much you can do at the North End however, and to do anything big takes money nobody currently has, or is likely to have in the timescales required. There's certainly room for improvement (see the speculative thread) but big-buck items like 4-tracking or Grade separating the North end are unlikely.

 

[GardenRail]

Bit like your post, if the company has decided it can make it work that's up to them to try. If it doesn't they will soon stop.

Sheffield station is well overdue a revised layout some bidirectional signalling would improve the flow. Ideally the north end will be looked at as the wires get nearer !

What do I know..... I just signal the things 12 hours a day at Sheffield. Passengers can easily travel to Retford or Sheffield and change.

 

[Killingworth]

Given the number of times TPE westbound South Pennine services thay come into Sheffield late adding more services through that bottleneck won't improve matters.

There are other aspirations for extra services through that corridor, all desirable for a few users but all likely to add more delays for many more.

 

[AlastairFraser]

There's only so much you can do at the North End however, and to do anything big takes money nobody currently has, or is likely to have in the timescales required. There's certainly room for improvement (see the speculative thread) but big-buck items like 4-tracking or Grade separating the North end are unlikely.

Surely they could rebuild Victoria station, IF they put down the cash for a basic island platform station?

 

[GardenRail]

Surely they could rebuild Victoria station, IF they put down the cash for a basic island platform station?

Not much good for connecting with the rest of the network.

 

[Harpers Tate]

Sheffield doesn't have enough capacity for such North end departures.

There clearly are capacity issues around Nunnery, but somehow, "they" managed to squeeze in an extra arrival and departure every hour when the Gainsborough Central shorts were running. Which tends to suggest that there is capacity for (at least) 2x more movements via Darnall per hour.

 

[Killingworth]

Surely they could rebuild Victoria station, IF they put down the cash for a basic island platform station?

They could. Suggestions to build a new station at Victoria tend to overlook why it closed in the first place and several reasons why it's not realistic to reopen now.

1. It's in the wrong part of Sheffield for most users.
2. It would offer no connections to other rail services.
3. A basic station would certainly not attract new users.
4. Building a new, even basic, station to modern accessibility standards would still cost many millions.
5. You'd still have congestion issues in the Nunnery area.

But all that has been discussed before and belongs in another thread.

 

[zwk500]

Surely they could rebuild Victoria station, IF they put down the cash for a basic island platform station?

The only way I could see Victoria being reopened is if the Stocksbridge branch got made into part of a Sheffield Overground/S-Bahn/Metro idea. But that's a different thread completely. The new London service will want to be at Midland to connect into local traffic and the tram, for feeder traffic into the OAO business.

 

[GardenRail]

There clearly are capacity issues around Nunnery, but somehow, "they" managed to squeeze in an extra arrival and departure every hour when the Gainsborough Central shorts were running. Which tends to suggest that there is capacity for (at least) 2x more movements via Darnall per hour.

And the timetable fell to pieces....

 

[AlastairFraser]

Not much good for connecting with the rest of the network.

But if you imagine this open access service as a kind of a low cost express route into London, a less convenient station fits into your typical low cost operator profile.

They could. Suggestions to build a new station at Victoria tend to overlook why it closed in the first place and several reasons why it's not realistic to reopen now.

1. It's in the wrong part of Sheffield for most users.
2. It would offer no connections to other rail services.
3. A basic station would certainly not attract new users.
4. Building a new, even basic, station to modern accessibility standards would still cost many millions.
5. You'd still have congestion issues in the Nunnery area.

But all that has been discussed before and belongs in another thread.

It does have those advantages, but it all depends how much Hull Trains wants to expand this business and compete with EMR in the future. It looks like a profitable market to tap (especially if you can abstract from coaches).

The only way I could see Victoria being reopened is if the Stocksbridge branch got made into part of a Sheffield Overground/S-Bahn/Metro idea. But that's a different thread completely. The new London service will want to be at Midland to connect into local traffic and the tram, for feeder traffic into the OAO business.

Want and able to get seem to be very different words in this scenario.....

 

[Killingworth]

And the timetable fell to pieces....

On a smaller scale than ramming more through central Manchester after completion of the Ordsall chord!

 

[eastwestdivide]

There clearly are capacity issues around Nunnery, but somehow, "they" managed to squeeze in an extra arrival and departure every hour when the Gainsborough Central shorts were running.

And prior to that, there were two stoppers an hour on the line to Doncaster (never came back after the pandemic). Plus regularly two XC per hour instead of the one-and-a-bit average now.

 

[Killingworth]

And prior to that, there were two stoppers an hour on the line to Doncaster (never came back after the pandemic). Plus regularly two XC per hour instead of the one-and-a-bit average now.

So capacity needs to be preserved for their return. Plus an extra hourly fast to Leeds service and an extra to Hull.

 

[YorksLad12]

So capacity needs to be preserved for their return. Plus an extra hourly fast to Leeds service and an extra to Hull.

The second fast service requires the rewrite of the East Coast timetable, I seem to recall from threads passim.

 

[Killingworth]

The second fast service requires the rewrite of the East Coast timetable, I seem to recall from threads passim.

TfN are seeking input into a consultation on TPE and Northern services from 2027. Nothing happens quickly with the railway. The knitting is formidable.

 

[fishwomp]

Not much good for connecting with the rest of the network.

16 minute walk. Curzon St to New St is only a couple of minutes less - although I'd say the expected time advantage will be far lower, except for Stocksbridge traffic..

 

[Bald Rick]

But if you imagine this open access service as a kind of a low cost express route into London, a less convenient station fits into your typical low cost operator profile.

No open access operator is boing to commit to buildign a new station for a handful of trains a day.

 

[AlastairFraser]

No open access operator is boing to commit to buildign a new station for a handful of trains a day.

Well, if they can't fit into Midland, they can't fit.

 

[357]

No open access operator is boing to commit to buildign a new station for a handful of trains a day.

Unless there is sufficient demand for other trains to stop there and they make money from charging TOCs station access fees

 

[Bald Rick]

Unless there is sufficient demand for other trains to stop there and they make money from charging TOCs station access fees

And who is paying for the other trains?

 

[fishwomp]

Unless there is sufficient demand for other trains to stop there and they make money from charging TOCs station access fees

The one that reopens the W******d line (using strategic reserve of steam locos from the tunnel).

I'd wonder whether Meadowhall would be a better target these days - ample parking, better road connections to the region. Needs the Woodburn Jct east curve restored - 500 yards. Why ever was that lifted..

 

[357]

And who is oaying for the other trains?

I've got no idea of the geography or detail of the situation - I'm just thinking about a Southend Airport type situation where the station is/was owned and operated by Stobart.

 

[eastwestdivide]

I'd wonder whether Meadowhall would be a better target these days - ample parking, better road connections to the region. Needs the Woodburn Jct east curve restored - 500 yards. Why ever was that lifted..

That wouldn’t get you to Meadowhall, only to Rotherham C.

 

[GardenRail]

Needs the Woodburn Jct east curve restored - 500 yards. Why ever was that lifted..

Not sure how that would get you to Meadowhall?

 

[zwk500]

Well, if they can't fit into Midland, they can't fit.

But if they have to pay for a new station, they'll never make their money back so if they can't fit they'll simply not bother.

 

[fishwomp]

Not sure how that would get you to Meadowhall?

doh, good point..

 

[mike57]

Capacity at Sheffield has been discussed here before, and any improvements to the north are going to be very costly. (likely in the 'never going to happen' category)

So a possible (simpler?) solution, London - Sheffield services and Nottingham - Liverpool services both enter and depart to/from the south. Could elevated bay platforms be constructed at walkway level at the London side. Its a falling gradient into the stations, so would actually be less gradient. There is the issue of a couple of overbridges close to the station throat, but if that could be addressed would it help? Advantage is you wouldn't be removing large amounts of bedrock.

This would free some platforms off, but I agree does nothing to increase capaity going north, but getting the two EMR routes separate from Northern, XC and maybe Hull Trains might help