First South West (Kernow & Buses of Somerset)

[83G/84D]

Optare Solo 50276 was seen heading very slowly along the westbound A30 approaching the Redruth exit earlier today, with hazard lights on and a long queue of traffic behind it!

 

[Accelerator59]

These fleetnumbers are all currently in use.



Why not buy a ticket on the bus?, as the fleetnumber will be printed on the ticket.

Chances are though, it'll probably be blank. But I like your thinking

 

[83G/84D]

Not exactly First Kernow but this is another withdrawl by First and may have some impact on First Kernow:-

10 July 2015

Breaking News!!!
Bus operator, First South West, today (10 July 2015) signed an agreement to sell its operations in South Devon to Stagecoach. On completion of the sale, expected to conclude 6 September 2015, the Plymouth bus depot, outstations at Tavistock and Dartmouth and around 250 staff will transfer to Stagecoach.
Alex Carter, Managing Director of First South West, said: “Despite the focus on services and the hard work of everyone in South Devon, unfortunately the business has underperformed for a number of years. I’m pleased we’ve negotiated an agreement to sell and therefore help protect jobs and key services.
“The sale does not, in any way, reflect the commitment of our employees in the area who have worked tirelessly to provide the best possible service to local communities. I’d like to thank them for their hard work and loyalty over the years. We will be fully supporting them as they transfer to their new employer.

““We’re proud to have served the South Devon community and would like to thank passengers for travelling with First South West over the years. I can assure our customers that we will continue to run services as normal up to and..........

(The statement finishes rather prematurely)

source:- www.plymothiantransit.com

 

[Volvodart]

I see they have a new website:-

http://firstkernow.co.uk/

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I see they have a new website:-

http://firstkernow.co.uk/

Slightly similar in style to Potteries so guess it's a Best Impressions creation.

 

[richw]

I see they have a new website:-

http://firstkernow.co.uk/

Launched within hours of them announcing getting rid of Devon, the existing website is Cornwall Devon and Somerset. I expect they may separate Cornwall and Somerset as doesn't fit together without Devon in the middle.
My expectation is buses of Somerset and First Kernow to operate as separate subsidiaries now with maybe the most senior management overseeing both with their own lower management

 

[DaveWestLondon]

Launched within hours of them announcing getting rid of Devon, the existing website is Cornwall Devon and Somerset. I expect they may separate Cornwall and Somerset as doesn't fit together without Devon in the middle.
My expectation is buses of Somerset and First Kernow to operate as separate subsidiaries now with maybe the most senior management overseeing both with their own lower management

I would have thought further sales would be the more likely option as First Devon & Cornwall has been split down the middle and it has been made clear by First Somerset & Avon that they do not want Taunton back!

David

 

[richw]

I would have thought further sales would be the more likely option as First Devon & Cornwall has been split down the middle and it has been made clear by First Somerset & Avon that they do not want Taunton back!

David

Buses of Somerset livery is very "Go Ahead" in my opinion. The similarities to Southern Vectis especially catch my eye. But on the other hand I don't see any operator wanting Taunton unless they are already in the area. Being a separate brand devoid of the first name makes it very likely for a standalone sale.
Companies I've been involved in when a subsidiary has been prepared for sale or public offering has received a brand name devoid of parent company names 18-24 months before sale. Having no parent branding in the name makes the sale a little simpler.

Cornwall by all accounts seems to be growing, and making some profit. If it's true they are buying western greyhounds summercourt and St Stephen depots shows commitment to Cornwall and the Newquay and st Austell area routes they've recently started up.

 

[KendalKing]

when a subsidiary has been prepared for sale or public offering has received a brand name devoid of parent company names 18-24 months before sale. Having no parent branding in the name makes the sale a little simpler.

Totally agree with you Richw, I too have been waiting for an announcement regarding Buses of Somerset.

 

[THarris123]

I see they have a new website:-

http://firstkernow.co.uk/

This website appears to be exactly the same as BoS, but in First branding.

 

[Busaholic]

It is a shame that, if First are really committed to Kernow, and I have my doubts in view of recent news from Berkshire westward, they have not amended the paper stickers from last summer on the opentoppers operating in Penwith to reflect that there is still a 300, and it is this year again an opentopper. Only the 1/1A and 17B are mentioned, so without a timetable your average visitor is not going to be aware of the coast road 300s, and the carry-over to the 1/1A. Anecdotal evidence (mine) is that the open top services have not been well used so far this year: yesterday afternoon was the first time I'd seen a 17B with maybe the majority of seats taken on the upper deck. Overheard conversation of First employees (another speciality of mine) does tend to back this up.

 

[matt_splat]

why sell busses of somerset.

very nice contract with EDF must be profitable
also taunton park and ride must do rather well

I think we will find in a few years time once EDF have invested a lot into the local area of somerset more improvements and better busses....

with first gaining the greyhound depots I wonder if outstations will close such as padstow Newquay and maybe St Austell and moved into one depot?

i'm sure it's easier to manage staff that way

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It is a shame that, if First are really committed to Kernow, and I have my doubts in view of recent news from Berkshire westward, they have not amended the paper stickers from last summer on the opentoppers operating in Penwith to reflect that there is still a 300, and it is this year again an opentopper. Only the 1/1A and 17B are mentioned, so without a timetable your average visitor is not going to be aware of the coast road 300s, and the carry-over to the 1/1A. Anecdotal evidence (mine) is that the open top services have not been well used so far this year: yesterday afternoon was the first time I'd seen a 17B with maybe the majority of seats taken on the upper deck. Overheard conversation of First employees (another speciality of mine) does tend to back this up.

Sorry but that's 2+2=5.

First Berkshire have lost a load of tendered work and, quite simply, there's not enough work to sustain Bracknell depot. It also enjoys a nice site for development. First Kernow has just eliminated its only major rival in Cornwall and is making money where before it lost.

No parallel at all. Otherwise, people could say the same about Stagecoach closing Cowdenbeath.

Of the four closures, only Hereford is a surprise and that only slightly. Newcastle UL is a now leased site and makes sense to consolidate on one site. Bracknell is tender related. Plymouth was due for disposal years ago and was going in some way after GA's assault.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

why sell busses of somerset.

very nice contract with EDF must be profitable
also taunton park and ride must do rather well

I think we will find in a few years time once EDF have invested a lot into the local area of somerset more improvements and better busses....

with first gaining the greyhound depots I wonder if outstations will close such as padstow Newquay and maybe St Austell and moved into one depot?

i'm sure it's easier to manage staff that way

Agree. Sure they'd love Webberbus to turn turtle but otherwise, they're doing ok with the P&R and EDF contracts. We've had 3 years of folk saying Somerset will get sold off... However, remove the gangrenous limb of Devon and there's two profitable businesses - not 20% margin businesses I grant you but not the basket cases they were.

 

[Robertj21a]

Sorry but that's 2+2=5.

First Berkshire have lost a load of tendered work and, quite simply, there's not enough work to sustain Bracknell depot. It also enjoys a nice site for development. First Kernow has just eliminated its only major rival in Cornwall and is making money where before it lost.

No parallel at all. Otherwise, people could say the same about Stagecoach closing Cowdenbeath.

Of the four closures, only Hereford is a surprise and that only slightly. Newcastle UL is a now leased site and makes sense to consolidate on one site. Bracknell is tender related. Plymouth was due for disposal years ago and was going in some way after GA's assault.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Agree. Sure they'd love Webberbus to turn turtle but otherwise, they're doing ok with the P&R and EDF contracts. We've had 3 years of folk saying Somerset will get sold off... However, remove the gangrenous limb of Devon and there's two profitable businesses - not 20% margin businesses I grant you but not the basket cases they were.

The Newcastle UL closure also ties in with a planned reduction in pvr and fleet size at Potteries which should, in turn, remove most of their non-DDA single deckers.

 

[Busaholic]

Sorry but that's 2+2=5.

Plymouth was due for disposal years ago and was going in some way after GA's assault.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That's a lovely juxtaposition, given that 2 plus 2 equalling 5 was a central part of '1984'.
Plymouth depot may have been 'due for disposal years ago' but in more recent times we were invited to believe by First itself, as well as its supporters and apologists, that they were the dominant and traditional, as successors to Western National, operator in the area and would 'see off' any competition. So, in '1984' terms this was all Newspeak apparently; perhaps 'Brave New World' too.

I have a figure given to me by someone as to First's net and gross profits on running the circular 300 service in 2013 and it is frankly stunning that, with Cornwall Council connivance, First should so readily forego this revenue because of non-remuneration of pass use. This is the sort of reason why I can't take seriously First's commitment to Cornwall.

I also have no doubt that if Western Greyhound had not suffered that first arson attack they would not only still have a substantial presence in Cornwall but would be almost as equally dominant as First by now in the county as a whole.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

That's a lovely juxtaposition, given that 2 plus 2 equalling 5 was a central part of '1984'.
Plymouth depot may have been 'due for disposal years ago' but in more recent times we were invited to believe by First itself, as well as its supporters and apologists, that they were the dominant and traditional, as successors to Western National, operator in the area and would 'see off' any competition. So, in '1984' terms this was all Newspeak apparently; perhaps 'Brave New World' too.

I have a figure given to me by someone as to First's net and gross profits on running the circular 300 service in 2013 and it is frankly stunning that, with Cornwall Council connivance, First should so readily forego this revenue because of non-remuneration of pass use. This is the sort of reason why I can't take seriously First's commitment to Cornwall.

I also have no doubt that if Western Greyhound had not suffered that first arson attack they would not only still have a substantial presence in Cornwall but would be almost as equally dominant by now in the county as a whole.

What that Orwellian reference has to do with anything, I'm not certain.

Those people who were trumpeting First in Plymouth were always clearly wrong. It was patently obvious when the e400s headed to the U services in exchange for knackered Tridents that the only way that First could survive was by removing NBV and depreciation. Fine as far as it goes but means you can never invest and it was merely blunting the pain.

I'm surprised you put any store on the barely literate ramblings of some on the Plymothian Transit comments. I didn't.

As for WG, don't kid yourself. Whilst the arson attack(s) were major events and contributed to their demise, the writing was on the wall 2 years before. Loss of Helston contracts and Truro P&R to First was one sign but the fleet was looking increasingly tatty and standards were falling. The malaise was evident in early 2012.

 

[richw]

It is a shame that, if First are really committed to Kernow, and I have my doubts in view of recent news from Berkshire westward, they have not amended the paper stickers from last summer on the opentoppers operating in Penwith to reflect that there is still a 300, and it is this year again an opentopper. Only the 1/1A and 17B are mentioned, so without a timetable your average visitor is not going to be aware of the coast road 300s, and the carry-over to the 1/1A. Anecdotal evidence (mine) is that the open top services have not been well used so far this year: yesterday afternoon was the first time I'd seen a 17B with maybe the majority of seats taken on the upper deck. Overheard conversation of First employees (another speciality of mine) does tend to back this up.

The evidence I've seen suggest the opposite, every photo of 1/300 on Flickr I've seen this year has a full or almost upper deck.

From publically available accounts WG were struggling at least a year before the fire.
If I am reading them correct The accounts show they had a £5000 excess on each vehicle so the fire was probably a nail in the coffin resulting in large losses on 30 odd vehicles losing £5000 each.

 

[RPI]

Stagecoach will do well in Plymouth and citybus wont welcome this news! Citybus now up against an operator who will aggressively fight competition.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The evidence I've seen suggest the opposite, every photo of 1/300 on Flickr I've seen this year has a full or almost upper deck.

From publically available accounts WG were struggling at least a year before the fire.
If I am reading them correct The accounts show they had a £5000 excess on each vehicle so the fire was probably a nail in the coffin resulting in large losses on 30 odd vehicles losing £5000 each.

I don't know about the 1/300/17 o/tops but you're correct on the accounts. WG were struggling well before the fire. Standards were not what they were, seemingly having overstretched themselves operationally (Penzance and Helston vehicles were filthy and driving standards lamentable). Factor in cuts to ENCTS reimbursement and it was pointing that way before they lost the Helston tenders.

Having dug in, seen WG off, and having set up operations with the P&R and Uni services, the idea that they're not committed to Kernow defies belief.

FWIW, I expect Stagecoach and Citybus to have a look at each other, then row back from competition. Think GA will recognise that Stagecoach is a very different proposition. Some of the stuff on PT is just garbage - one person even suggested Torpoint would be run from Camborne!!!


As for First's fleet, I'd expect the knackered B6s and Darts will go for razor blades. The older Tridents to Kernow with the best Darts and Solos. The newer Tridents might just head to Bridgwater for the 21 but who knows.....well SouthWesterly will actually! The troublesome B7Ls might be more difficult to find a home for......

 

[richw]

I don't know about the 1/300/17 o/tops but you're correct on the accounts. WG were struggling well before the fire. Standards were not what they were, seemingly having overstretched themselves operationally (Penzance and Helston vehicles were filthy and driving standards lamentable). Factor in cuts to ENCTS reimbursement and it was pointing that way before they lost the Helston tenders.

Having dug in, seen WG off, and having set up operations with the P&R and Uni services, the idea that they're not committed to Kernow defies belief.

FWIW, I expect Stagecoach and Citybus to have a look at each other, then row back from competition. Think GA will recognise that Stagecoach is a very different proposition. Some of the stuff on PT is just garbage - one person even suggested Torpoint would be run from Camborne!!!


As for First's fleet, I'd expect the knackered B6s and Darts will go for razor blades. The older Tridents to Kernow with the best Darts and Solos. The newer Tridents might just head to Bridgwater for the 21 but who knows.....well SouthWesterly will actually! The troublesome B7Ls might be more difficult to find a home for......

Torpoint depot hasn't been mentioned as being transferred to Stagecoach, so I did wonder what will happen there.
Will the Plymouth vehicles be transferred as part of the sale, as has been seen in other parts of the country where First have sold an operation to Stagecoach and First liveried vehicles can be seen with Stagecoach branding.

Are the older Tridents DDA compliant? Being 1999 I don't believe they will be.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Torpoint depot hasn't been mentioned as being transferred to Stagecoach, so I did wonder what will happen there.
Will the Plymouth vehicles be transferred as part of the sale, as has been seen in other parts of the country where First have sold an operation to Stagecoach and First liveried vehicles can be seen with Stagecoach branding.

Are the older Tridents DDA compliant? Being 1999 I don't believe they will be.

From rumours circulating, the vehicles aren't included and you can understand why! Fleet is archaic and not to Stagecoach standard.

Not certain about the older Tridents (esp ex London ones) but conceivable some could be brought up to standard. The older single decks will doubtless go but B7L are problem children.

 

[richw]

From rumours circulating, the vehicles aren't included and you can understand why! Fleet is archaic and not to Stagecoach standard.

Not certain about the older Tridents (esp ex London ones) but conceivable some could be brought up to standard. The older single decks will doubtless go but B7L are problem children.

Its interesting you mention the B7Ls as the ones in Cornwall already put in a lot of long hours on the 14/18.
Is it worth spending money on a 16 year old Trident to bring to standard will be a bigger question.
If you look at Plymouth of recent times most of the newer stuff has been moved to Cornwall and Bristol with older stuff sent to Plymouth.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Its interesting you mention the B7Ls as the ones in Cornwall already put in a lot of long hours on the 14/18.
Is it worth spending money on a 16 year old Trident to bring to standard will be a bigger question.
If you look at Plymouth of recent times most of the newer stuff has been moved to Cornwall and Bristol with older stuff sent to Plymouth.

They are B7RLEs not B7Ls. 61594 is the only B7L in Cornwall. B7Ls have the transverse engine and have fearsome mpgs.

As for Tridents, depends on the amount of work required. Might not be much more than recertification on the non ex London ones

 

[DaveHarries]

From rumours circulating, the vehicles aren't included and you can understand why! Fleet is archaic and not to Stagecoach standard.

If that is the case things will be interesting. Makes me wonder what will be rushed in, unless an emergency order has been placed or part of Stagecoach's most recent order is for Plymouth. New / newer vehicles will, it seems, turn up sooner if not later.

It will also be interesting to see if Stagecoach change any of the routes: one thing I could possibly see happening would be that the X38 goes hourly now that facilities will exist at both ends for storage of vehicles.

Dave

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

If that is the case things will be interesting. Makes me wonder what will be rushed in, unless an emergency order has been placed or part of Stagecoach's most recent order is for Plymouth. New / newer vehicles will, it seems, turn up sooner if not later.

It will also be interesting to see if Stagecoach change any of the routes: one thing I could possibly see happening would be that the X38 goes hourly now that facilities will exist at both ends for storage of vehicles.

Dave

Firstly, the stuff about First not taking the fleet are rumours though M Bonwick is usually pretty accurate on Stagecoach stuff, and even he's sounding a note of caution. Stagecoach are also past masters at moving orders around as well as adding further batches onto the order book.

However, I doubt the X38 will go hourly. It was before in 2011 but the number of ENCTS passengers and poor remuneration saw it dropped to a two vehicle operation. Going hourly would require two further vehicles so unlikely.

 

[fgwrich]

Firstly, the stuff about First not taking the fleet are rumours though M Bonwick is usually pretty accurate on Stagecoach stuff, and even he's sounding a note of caution. Stagecoach are also past masters at moving orders around as well as adding further batches onto the order book.

However, I doubt the X38 will go hourly. It was before in 2011 but the number of ENCTS passengers and poor remuneration saw it dropped to a two vehicle operation. Going hourly would require two further vehicles so unlikely.

Indeed, Wasn't the Goldline or half Goldline / Half Standard Spec E400s originally diverted from their original order destination after First sold a hefty chunk of their South Devon operations the last time around?

 

[didbygraham]

As with all of these developments there is a lot of speculation with quite a few 'facts' being given out which often contradict each other!

A few of the more reliable sources do suggest that no buses are included in the sale but that some may remain on loan to Stagecoach for a while after the purchase giving SC time to bring in other buses from elsewhere. There is no doubt that SC are very good at moving buses around the country so I dont suppose it will be long before the fleet looks like the rest of Stagecoach.

As for the First buses, I suspect that the Tridents and the E400's will all end up in Kernow. The Tridents are going through repaint into full 'Olympia' without any names along with some of the newer Darts.

SC also seem to be renumbering services they are taking over with some interesting numbers so far with the old PR2 (Coypool) being registered as the 200, The Tavistock Plymouth service is to be the 1 and the Kingsbridge 93 becoming the 3.

PS I agree with the earlier comment about some of the comments on PT (Plymothian Transit) The quoted example that Torpoint was going to be run by Camborne (!) was printed more for entertainment than anything else as it was so clearly rubbish.

Graham (Plymothian Transit)

 

[DaveHarries]

Let's wait and see what happens then. I have downloaded the current FDC Plymouth network map for the sake of comparisons at a later date. If the PR2 (Coypool) is to become the 200 then, off the top of my head, I will bet on the George Junction P&R becoming Service 100 but who knows.

Dave

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

As with all of these developments there is a lot of speculation with quite a few 'facts' being given out which often contradict each other!

A few of the more reliable sources do suggest that no buses are included in the sale but that some may remain on loan to Stagecoach for a while after the purchase giving SC time to bring in other buses from elsewhere. There is no doubt that SC are very good at moving buses around the country so I dont suppose it will be long before the fleet looks like the rest of Stagecoach.

As for the First buses, I suspect that the Tridents and the E400's will all end up in Kernow. The Tridents are going through repaint into full 'Olympia' without any names along with some of the newer Darts.

SC also seem to be renumbering services they are taking over with some interesting numbers so far with the old PR2 (Coypool) being registered as the 200, The Tavistock Plymouth service is to be the 1 and the Kingsbridge 93 becoming the 3.

PS I agree with the earlier comment about some of the comments on PT (Plymothian Transit) The quoted example that Torpoint was going to be run by Camborne (!) was printed more for entertainment than anything else as it was so clearly rubbish.

Graham (Plymothian Transit)

Graham, thanks for your efforts in running PT. I know it's a labour of love, keeping out the spam, let alone the more idiosyncratic ramblings of some. My personal favourite (apart from Torpoint from Camborne) was... "With the services into Cornwall SC will expand further & launch more services down there"..... of course they will

Clearly, there will be a lot of interesting fleet moves in the next few months. As I've said before, I wonder if some of the better deckers may move to Somerset to upgrade the 21, but that's my speculation and nothing more.

Anyhow, I look forward to PT continuing to report what's going on; keep 'em peeled

 

[richw]

"With the services into Cornwall SC will expand further & launch more services down there"..... of course they will

My expectation is they will leave the Saltash services to PCB/Go Cornwall who already compete on the route.