First South West (Kernow & Buses of Somerset)

[TheGrandWazoo]

My expectation is they will leave the Saltash services to PCB/Go Cornwall who already compete on the route.

I doubt they'll show their hand just yet (unless *cough* discussions have already been held) as it weakens any negotiating position. The clever money will say that they'll eventually have to retreat back from various positions as I doubt that GA are making the appropriate return on their competitive routes either.

Where either party may or may not operate will be interesting.

The idea that Stagecoach will look to move into Cornwall is laughable. If Stagecoach fancy a bus war with First, there are easier, more lucrative areas in which to do it.

 

[Robertj21a]

I doubt they'll show their hand just yet (unless *cough* discussions have already been held) as it weakens any negotiating position. The clever money will say that they'll eventually have to retreat back from various positions as I doubt that GA are making the appropriate return on their competitive routes either.

Where either party may or may not operate will be interesting.

The idea that Stagecoach will look to move into Cornwall is laughable. If Stagecoach fancy a bus war with First, there are easier, more lucrative areas in which to do it.

Surely, on recent experience, Stagecoach usually have to just wait a few months/years before they acquire whatever First subsidiaries are, finally, abandoned - they then go on to make them profitable operations. It probably won't be Kernow, but they may yet still find a few more First Bus rejects.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Surely, on recent experience, Stagecoach usually have to just wait a few months/years before they acquire whatever First subsidiaries are, finally, abandoned - they then go on to make them profitable operations. It probably won't be Kernow, but they may yet still find a few more First Bus rejects.

With the exception of FSE, there's not that many pups now. Also, it's not so simple to say First exits, cue success. Stagecoach couldn't do it in Somerset even after purchasing Cooks as well, and Arriva couldn't do it with Wardle.

That's not to say that there was intrinsically good territories that Moir and his policies didn't cock up royally. Wigan was one, so was Potteries, Northampton and of course, SMT (second best performing SBG firm after Fife, IIRC). Sadly, think some were just too far gone to save.

Northampton should be taught as a text book way not to do things. A strong robust operation purchased but then mismanaged as good fleet was moved to update weaker fleets, unrealistic margin expectations seeing decent services cut allowing SC to encroach, whilst then placing more strain on the surviving ops.

UK bus is moving in the right way but Plymouth was screwed. The irony being that First's predatory actions saw PCB driven to GA whilst GA's actions have merely done to same with First Devon to Stagecoach.

 

[overthewater]

With the exception of FSE, there's not that many pups now. Also, it's not so simple to say First exits, cue success. Stagecoach couldn't do it in Somerset even after purchasing Cooks as well, and Arriva couldn't do it with Wardle.

That's not to say that there was intrinsically good territories that Moir and his policies didn't cock up royally. Wigan was one, so was Potteries, Northampton and of course, SMT (second best performing SBG firm after Fife, IIRC). Sadly, think some were just too far gone to save.

Northampton should be taught as a text book way not to do things. A strong robust operation purchased but then mismanaged as good fleet was moved to update weaker fleets, unrealistic margin expectations seeing decent services cut allowing SC to encroach, whilst then placing more strain on the surviving ops.

Not really directed at you TheGrandWazoo,

I just can't really see any another places bar FSE where First would pull the plug and run for the hills, I would love to hear if there were others. SMT would be a far better text book case how not to do things, I don't believe for one second the talk about Edinburgh city telling First ( Grampian) there were not welcome in the city. It still had two very good routes until some prat pulled the plug in 2000, instead going after LRT, of course LRT filled the gaps and have been running to the bank ever since.

I think the only reason Muss has been kept, because its got a fully DDA fleet, which is complete shock, considering how bad the accounts are.

Anyway, what it does mean is I can see some decent 52 plate buses heading for Cornwall now from FSE, apart from sore bums there will be misted. I think there is still around 10 non DDA single deckers in the company mainly at Stirling.

 

[Robertj21a]

How 'safe' is Somerset nowadays ? - I'm rarely down that part of the world.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

How 'safe' is Somerset nowadays ? - I'm rarely down that part of the world.

Some retrenchment on services though partly from cuts in Somerset and Devon CCs. Some of the withdrawals were on services introduced against Webberbus but you could assume that the cost of them wasn't worth the damage it was doing against WB.

Instead, they appear to be concentrating on the main 21/22/28 services and have regained some of the market on those. Fleet is being modestly updated with single decks all DDA compliant; older deckers remain but the last Olyms are due to go soon. Nonetheless, the fleet profile is still fairly aged with most of the fleet being 1999-2003 vintage though some newer vehicles consisting of 2005 B7RLEs and 2008/9 e200s run.

However, the performance is also much aided by the winning of Taunton P&R (using leased Streetlites) and also working on contracts for EDF based on the construction of Hinkley Point C.

It's not the basket case it was though some of the early optimism has been tempered (though some folk perhaps had unrealistic expectations). Much will depend on how long Webberbus can continue to fight on many fronts whilst exploiting the border between two First businesses.

 

[DaveHarries]

As for the sale of Plymouth operations, final confirmation if it were needed. Some uncertainty on First D&C's Facebook page too in response to the sale.
http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/devon_cornwall/travel_news/news_initiatives/?item=28531&conf=0
https://www.facebook.com/firstdevon?fref=ts

Dave

 

[THarris123]

As for the sale of Plymouth operations, final confirmation if it were needed. Some uncertainty on First D&C's Facebook page too in response to the sale.
http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/devon_cornwall/travel_news/news_initiatives/?item=28531&conf=0
https://www.facebook.com/firstdevon?fref=ts

Dave

Final confirmation I would have thought is the deregistration of their routes on vosa, which all came through yesterday.

 

[DaveHarries]

Final confirmation I would have thought is the deregistration of their routes on vosa, which all came through yesterday.

Yes I saw those. I wonder if PCB will increase the frequency of the 12 up to Launceston in order to compensate for the loss of the 76.

Dave

 

[DD12]

See Route One online magazine today !

Cornwall is to franchise all bus services from 2018 !

Implications go far beyond Cornwall.

Sorry if I've misread the article - I find it hard to believe.

IF this happens, it will surely cost Cornwall massively more money than they spend currently !

And will First still be a player ?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

See Route One online magazine today !

Cornwall is to franchise all bus services from 2018 !

Implications go far beyond Cornwall.

Sorry if I've misread the article - I find it hard to believe.

IF this happens, it will surely cost Cornwall massively more money than they spend currently !

And will First still be a player ?

Yeah..... just as well the DoT and DLGR aren't being asked to look at 40% cut in budgets.

George Osborne - dresses up this as devolution but really, it's nothing of the sort.

 

[Goldfish62]

See Route One online magazine today !

Cornwall is to franchise all bus services from 2018 !

Implications go far beyond Cornwall.

Sorry if I've misread the article - I find it hard to believe.

IF this happens, it will surely cost Cornwall massively more money than they spend currently !

And will First still be a player ?

It's old news - it was announced last week and was the main headline on the news. In fact, Cornwall's ambitions for such a regime have been in the trade press for around a year now. I just don't think anyone expected it to actually happen!

Not sure why you would conclude that it would necessarily cost massively more money - that would all depend on what size network was proposed. If it were to broadly remain as now it should cost the same just shift around of where the costs/revenue are allocated), BUT that also depends on whether First Kernow is running at a loss and being subsided from elsewhere. if it is, then Cornwall Council would effectively take that on.

Apart from the integrated ticketing argument, Cornwall Council's main contention is that the current network is highly unstable. I doubt if anyone would disagree with that, whatever their view of the proposals.

Personally, I'm somewhat uneasy about it all...

 

[Robertj21a]

It's old news - it was announced last week and was the main headline on the news. In fact, Cornwall's ambitions for such a regime have been in the trade press for around a year now. I just don't think anyone expected it to actually happen!

Not sure why you would conclude that it would necessarily cost massively more money - that would all depend on what size network was proposed. If it were to broadly remain as now it should cost the same just shift around of where the costs/revenue are allocated), BUT that also depends on whether First Kernow is running at a loss and being subsided from elsewhere. if it is, then Cornwall Council would effectively take that on.

Apart from the integrated ticketing argument, Cornwall Council's main contention is that the current network is highly unstable. I doubt if anyone would disagree with that, whatever their view of the proposals.

Personally, I'm somewhat uneasy about it all...

I think there is good reason to feel uneasy about it. My initial concern would be over just how skilled are those people who would now take on the planning and franchise arrangements generally.

 

[AB93]

Apart from the integrated ticketing argument, Cornwall Council's main contention is that the current network is highly unstable. I doubt if anyone would disagree with that, whatever their view of the proposals.

Personally, I'm somewhat uneasy about it all...

It's ironic, given the major instability in Cornwall was the collapse of Western Greyhound, itself triggered by huge cuts made by... Cornwall Council...

Doubly ironic is that - now that's over - things are much more stable, with First Kernow much better now than a couple of years ago. The only problem is the huge uncertainty and instability, created by... the threat of franchising... created by... Cornwall Council...

I too am hugely uneasy about the whole thing. Elected mayors? Bus lanes in Liverpool, who needs them? Franchising bus networks - there just aren't the correct skills in the local authorities to do it. Unfortunately, some of the northern PTEs don't realise how cr*p they are so will plough ahead regardless.

 

[LateThanNever]

It's ironic, given the major instability in Cornwall was the collapse of Western Greyhound, itself triggered by huge cuts made by... Cornwall Council...

Doubly ironic is that - now that's over - things are much more stable, with First Kernow much better now than a couple of years ago. The only problem is the huge uncertainty and instability, created by... the threat of franchising... created by... Cornwall Council...

I too am hugely uneasy about the whole thing. Elected mayors? Bus lanes in Liverpool, who needs them? Franchising bus networks - there just aren't the correct skills in the local authorities to do it. Unfortunately, some of the northern PTEs don't realise how cr*p they are so will plough ahead regardless.

This is not quite fair - there was the small matter of Western Greyhound's fires which was the basis of their problems.
I'm also not sure how democracy is neccessarily worse than a bus company's commercial 'practice'. Local authorities putting things out for tender is something they do a lot of so there is a replicable skill there.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

This is not quite fair - there was the small matter of Western Greyhound's fires which was the basis of their problems.
I'm also not sure how democracy is neccessarily worse than a bus company's commercial 'practice'. Local authorities putting things out for tender is something they do a lot of so there is a replicable skill there.

As has been said before, the issues with WG pre-dated the fires (damaging as they were) and started with the reductions in ENCTS remuneration and loss of Helston area (and then PZ) area contracts.

There is a big difference between rolling out a tender and the ongoing London style management of operations.

 

[DD12]

Further details re. franchising on today's busandcoach.com

 

[radamfi]

The council doesn't necessarily need to get too involved in the route planning depending on what kind of franchise model is decided. They could, for example, invite companies to propose a network and timetable based on loose parameters. Kind of like rail franchising. That might mean the council doing less work than they do now.

 

[the101]

Northampton should be taught as a text book way not to do things. A strong robust operation purchased but then mismanaged...

This is exactly what has happened with the Potteries operation. When Badgerline purchased PMT it was a very strong, growing business which ran a modern fleet and provided an excellent level of service at little to no cost to the local authorities.

Now look at it.

To mismanage one business almost to extinction is bad. To do it to more than one, well...

 

[LateThanNever]

As has been said before, the issues with WG pre-dated the fires (damaging as they were) and started with the reductions in ENCTS remuneration and loss of Helston area (and then PZ) area contracts.

There is a big difference between rolling out a tender and the ongoing London style management of operations.

Which presumes that the franchisees are incompitent, deceptive or dishonest. Romantically I'd presumed they wouldn't be.
Perhaps only bus companies with a head office in Cornwall should be allowed to apply (or at leat given preference)!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The council doesn't necessarily need to get too involved in the route planning depending on what kind of franchise model is decided. They could, for example, invite companies to propose a network and timetable based on loose parameters. Kind of like rail franchising. That might mean the council doing less work than they do now.

Quite - a very likely scenario I'd have thought.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As has been said before, the issues with WG pre-dated the fires (damaging as they were) and started with the reductions in ENCTS remuneration and loss of Helston area (and then PZ) area contracts.

There is a big difference between rolling out a tender and the ongoing London style management of operations.

Which presumes that the franchisees are incompitent, deceptive or dishonest. Romantically I'd presumed they wouldn't be.
Perhaps only bus companies with a head office in Cornwall should be allowed to apply (or at least given preference)!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As has been said before, the issues with WG pre-dated the fires (damaging as they were) and started with the reductions in ENCTS remuneration and loss of Helston area (and then PZ) area contracts.

There is a big difference between rolling out a tender and the ongoing London style management of operations.

Which presumes that the franchisees are incompetent, deceptive or dishonest. Romantically I'd presumed they wouldn't be.
Perhaps only bus companies with a head office in Cornwall should be allowed to apply (or at least given preference)!

 

[KendalKing]

I too am hugely uneasy about the whole thing. Elected mayors? Bus lanes in Liverpool, who needs them? Franchising bus networks - there just aren't the correct skills in the local authorities to do it. Unfortunately, some of the northern PTEs don't realise how cr*p they are so will plough ahead regardless.

Somebody else, that thinks on the same wave length as me.

 

[LateThanNever]

Which presumes that the franchisees are incompetent, deceptive or dishonest. Romantically I'd presumed they wouldn't be.
Perhaps only bus companies with a head office in Cornwall should be allowed to apply (or at leat given preference)!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Quite - a very likely scenario I'd have thought.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---



Which presumes that the franchisees are incompetent, deceptive or dishonest. Romantically I'd presumed they wouldn't be.
Perhaps only bus companies with a head office in Cornwall should be allowed to apply (or at least given preference)!

Apologies for double posts - unable to edit..

 

[AB93]

From the Bus and Coach article, we know that...
http://busandcoach.com/news/article...ish-surprise-with-powers-for-bus-franchising/

"The deal is described as ‘fiscally neutral’, meaning there is no extra money"
(plus "the council stresses that it still has to make overall savings of £196million over the next four years").

"Cornwall council describes the current bus network in the county as “unstable”"
"claims that a London-style tendered model is required in order to deliver passenger growth and an integrated public transport network"

"Those who do not use buses report that this is because services
-are not frequent enough
-fares are expensive
-journey times are often too slow.”

"The council aims to introduce integrated smart ticketing with combined, cash-less travel between bus, rail and ferry services."
"it aims to increase bus patronage to 13 million passengers by 2023"

So, overall:
The issues raised are
-services aren't frequent enough
-fares too high
-journey times are too slow

The aims are:
-to increase patronage
-to introduce smart ticketing

So to solve the issues they have raised, they need to:
(services aren't frequent enough) - increase service provision
(fares too high) - reduce fares
(journey times too slow) - speed up journey times. Not quite sure how this is actually possible without cutting bits of route out, or running some buses fast and having extra buses doing the slow bits.

+pay for introduction of smartcards.

And the constraint is:
-There's no extra money to do it.

Good luck!

 

[fgwrich]

(journey times too slow) - speed up journey times. Not quite sure how this is actually possible without cutting bits of route out, or running some buses fast and having extra buses doing the slow bits.

My thoughts exactly. Surely, if they want to speed up some of the services, then CC should play their part in maintaining the local road network as well. Afterall, you wouldn't try to speed up a railway without upgrading the track first would you? Parking can be an out of CCs control, but something would need to be done to make sure lanes aren't being blocked, etc...

 

[Goldfish62]

From the Bus and Coach article, we know that...
http://busandcoach.com/news/article...ish-surprise-with-powers-for-bus-franchising/

"The deal is described as ‘fiscally neutral’, meaning there is no extra money"
(plus "the council stresses that it still has to make overall savings of £196million over the next four years").

"Cornwall council describes the current bus network in the county as “unstable”"
"claims that a London-style tendered model is required in order to deliver passenger growth and an integrated public transport network"

"Those who do not use buses report that this is because services
-are not frequent enough
-fares are expensive
-journey times are often too slow.”

"The council aims to introduce integrated smart ticketing with combined, cash-less travel between bus, rail and ferry services."
"it aims to increase bus patronage to 13 million passengers by 2023"

So, overall:
The issues raised are
-services aren't frequent enough
-fares too high
-journey times are too slow

The aims are:
-to increase patronage
-to introduce smart ticketing

So to solve the issues they have raised, they need to:
(services aren't frequent enough) - increase service provision
(fares too high) - reduce fares
(journey times too slow) - speed up journey times. Not quite sure how this is actually possible without cutting bits of route out, or running some buses fast and having extra buses doing the slow bits.

+pay for introduction of smartcards.

And the constraint is:
-There's no extra money to do it.

Good luck!

Yes there is. There's the £50m capital funding allocated to the project by central Government.

 

[KendalKing]

Yes there is. There's the £50m capital funding allocated to the project by central Government.

How far do you think £50m is going to go?

Please bear in mind that new buses cost between £250,000 - £300,000 each

 

[richw]

I've been out on the buses with a Ride Cornwall today, each bus left its origin on time or within a couple of minutes of time. The earliest arrival at destination was 20 minutes late due to traffic congestion. All well and good saying speed up the services but can only go as fast as the traffic allows.
I've today been on 14, 18, 85 and 93.
The 85 lost around 20 minutes in traffic in Crantock alone.

 

[83G/84D]

I have been on the 56 today and we lost 10 minutes between Newquay and St Mawgan due to traffic.

 

[Goldfish62]

How far do you think £50m is going to go?

Please bear in mind that new buses cost between £250,000 - £300,000 each

I'm well aware of the cost involved as I work in the industry.

The £50m is capital funding. The cost of buses would come from the revenue stream, not capital spend.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The council doesn't necessarily need to get too involved in the route planning depending on what kind of franchise model is decided. They could, for example, invite companies to propose a network and timetable based on loose parameters. Kind of like rail franchising. That might mean the council doing less work than they do now.

Quite. I don't know why everyone automatically assumes it would be the London model.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I've been out on the buses with a Ride Cornwall today, each bus left its origin on time or within a couple of minutes of time. The earliest arrival at destination was 20 minutes late due to traffic congestion. All well and good saying speed up the services but can only go as fast as the traffic allows.
I've today been on 14, 18, 85 and 93.
The 85 lost around 20 minutes in traffic in Crantock alone.

Maybe they mean simplifying routings rather than actually driving faster.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Elected mayors? Bus lanes in Liverpool, who needs them? Franchising bus networks - there just aren't the correct skills in the local authorities to do it. Unfortunately, some of the northern PTEs don't realise how cr*p they are so will plough ahead regardless.

The idiot in Liverpool is the mayor of the city, not of Merseyside. He's no different in status from, say, the Mayor of Newham in London, who could also decide to abolish bus lanes on his roads.

So if the local authorities don't have the correct skills who plans the 40% of the Cornish network which is already tendered? And you are obviously not aware of the flow of staff between operators and local authorities that takes place all the time.

I'd also be interested to have examples of how the former PTEs (they've been ITAs since 2011) are so bad. Personally I think some of them have done a good job introducing network ticketing schemes across multiple operators who are under no obligation to take part.

 

[radamfi]

Dutch buses were tendered around 2000 and they have used a wide variety of franchising models, which are summarised in pages 25 to 32 of the report into Dutch tendering carried out on behalf of the PTEG:

http://www.pteg.net/system/files/PTtenderinginNL20100723small.pdf

The idiot in Liverpool is the mayor of the city, not of Merseyside. He's no different in status from, say, the Mayor of Newham in London, who could also decide to abolish bus lanes on his roads.

Didn't Bexley Council get a bus lane in Welling removed?