Football

[Bantamzen]

Thank God. Waste of time, money and energy. Let's put that sorry saga behind us.

This isn't over, not by a long means. The owners of these clubs will have, in their eyes at least, have been scuppered from their plans to print huge bags of money. And they are not the kind of people to forget that in a hurry.

Now the best case scenario would be that they bailed ASAP, selling the clubs back to people who give a crap about the fans and the history of them. However given the idiotic sums of money sunk in by them, I would be amazed for them to go quietly. This will be even worse if other European clubs stick with the idea, I can't see the owners of PL clubs sitting back and watching an ESL form without them. And even if it goes pointy bits up, this isn't the first time such as league has been proposed, and it certainly won't be the last. I get the feeling that if it doesn't happen, over the next couple of years a lot of football authority members will have their palms greased, and a lot of brown envelopes stuffed with money be passed around. And we know how UEFA / FIFA like brown envelopes stuffed with money, allegedly...

This isn't over yet.

 

[DarloRich]

This isn't over, not by a long means. The owners of these clubs will have, in their eyes at least, have been scuppered from their plans to print huge bags of money. And they are not the kind of people to forget that in a hurry.

agreed - they will be back. It will be favorable changes to domestic collective TV rights, solidarity payments ( crumbs from their table) numbers of games/PL size, cup formats etc that they will be after next.

 

[Bantamzen]

agreed - they will be back. It will be favorable changes to domestic collective TV rights, solidarity payments ( crumbs from their table) numbers of games/PL size, cup formats etc that they will be after next.

The global market for subscription football is so huge, there's just no way they aren't already thinking about other ways of, well getting their way. And the recasting of the CL is going to be a obvious target, they'll play along with UEFA but set additional stipulations as time goes on making it an even more closed shop. And then when they have all but secured their guaranteed places each year they'll come along with a deal that UEFA cannot refuse. Then they sign an exclusive ESL, erm Champions League TV deal with a global broadcaster (it could well end up being someone like Amazon), along with a deal to bring in non-European competitors, and they will be back where they want to be. It sounds cynical, but the seeds of the failed ESL were sown years ago. There's just too much money involved for them not to sow more, and further afield.

The only way this doesn't happen is that these investors walk away from football, and potentially lose a vast amount of money. So fans would be best advised to not celebrate too much yet. After all as we have seen in the US with American Football, and even here on a much smaller scale with the MK Dons, fans can be replaced simply by displacing the sporting franchise to a new location. I would be still worried being a fan of one of those big clubs, and as s supporter of a much smaller, lower league club I'm even more worried still about what the future holds for football.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Inter Milan, AC Milan and Atletico Madrid have now pulled out of "that" competition, making nine of the original twelve have now withdrawn.

 

[Loppylugs]

The only way this doesn't happen is that these investors walk away from football, and potentially lose a vast amount of money. So fans would be best advised to not celebrate too much yet. After all as we have seen in the US with American Football, and even here on a much smaller scale with the MK Dons, fans can be replaced simply by displacing the sporting franchise to a new location. I would be still worried being a fan of one of those big clubs, and as s supporter of a much smaller, lower league club I'm even more worried still about what the future holds for football.

As an AFC Wimbledon supporter, I fully understand the comment on that lot from Buckinghamshire, known to us as Franchise (amongst other things). We are immensely proud to be a totally fan-owned club, and we managed to build a new stadium paid for by the fans, even if we haven't been able to get into it yet !
It's ok all these premiership club fans saying their clubs belong to them, but they were quite happy to see the present owners pump the money in to sign up overpaid prima-donnas. What happens if the owners now decide to pull out completely ? Will the fans dip into their own pockets to pay these players wages ? The entrance fee money does not even touch the thousands they are paid and very, very few players are loyal. No big cash, they're off.

 

[birchesgreen]

Now the proposal to bring Celtic and Rangers into a rebooted Premier League raises it's head yet again. Yawn.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It's ok all these premiership club fans saying their clubs belong to them, but they were quite happy to see the present owners pump the money in to sign up overpaid prima-donnas. What happens if the owners now decide to pull out completely ? Will the fans dip into their own pockets to pay these players wages ? The entrance fee money does not even touch the thousands they are paid and very, very few players are loyal. No big cash, they're off.

When you talk especially of overseas players on very high salaries, you cannot attach "loyalty" to them, as their contract with the club would be for a few years at the most, then normally you would find clubs from different countries seek them out.

 

[birchesgreen]

Why should anyone attach loyalty to any player anyway, I've always found it a stupid and hypocritical idea. Fred doesn't get called Judas by his mates because he moved from XYZ Co. to ABC Inc. because they paid more.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

League 2 has an unusual situation that sees Oldham Athletic in 15th place having the most goals for (64) and the most goals against (68).

Keith Curle must have known that the task facing him at Oldham was one that needed the ability to motivate the existing team squad there, after the club sacked Harry Kewell, was the immediate priority to score more goals to balance the goals being conceded. The last four matches, most recent results at the top are:-
Harrogate Town 0 ... Oldham Athletic 3
Morecambe 4 ... Oldham Athletic 3
Oldham Athletic 5 ... Colchester Utd 2
Crawley Town 1 ... Oldham Athletic 4

I was not surprised at the result of the Morecambe game, as The Shrimps are having a very good season this year and have a good league position to show for their efforts.

Why should anyone attach loyalty to any player anyway, I've always found it a stupid and hypocritical idea. Fred doesn't get called Judas by his mates because he moved from XYZ Co. to ABC Inc. because they paid more.

It is not just in football. Look at the number of the better English cricketers who have chosen to play in that Indian competition rather than to represent their county side.

 

[birchesgreen]

It is not just in football. Look at the number of the better English cricketers who have chosen to play in that Indian competition rather than to represent their county side.

Its their livelihood and a sportsperson's short career is always one horror tackle or slip away from a premature end, I don't blame them from trying to make the most of it.

 

[REVUpminster]

The situation of the six clubs being in a super league was all wrong. It could have led to the possibility of one of the six being relegated from the premier division but remaining in the super league.

There is a similar situation this year in the National League where there is no relegation this year because the North and South leagues could not afford to play. Dover in the National league, from November or December furloughed their players and staff and refused to play knowing they can't be relegated. Their results from games played have been expunged which affected every team that played them. It also means teams at the lower end don't have anything to play for with some odd results with teams going for promotion and play off positions.

 

[Geezertronic]

Keith Curle must have known that the task facing him at Oldham...

I would suggest that Lee Bowyer has done a similar job at Birmingham City, hopefully avoiding a certain relegation to League 1 in the process. When Karanka was manager, we were dead certs for relegation. Bowyer has come in and under his managership so far, the team has obtained 14 points out of a possible 21 with a single defeat to Watford.

 

[swt_passenger]

So the BBC are now reporting that Moyes wants a British League, including Rangers and Celtic, with a split premier league to reduce the number of games. Promotion and relegation from the Scottish and English pyramids. What about the Welsh pyramid?

Moyes calls for unified British league

David Moyes believes the failure of the breakaway European Super League (ESL) provides an opportunity to consider a unified British competition instead.

www.bbc.co.uk

1. I doubt he would be saying that if West Ham were down in the relegation zone this season.
2. He seems unaware that current Scottish politicians would never allow it - as it’s too British by far.
3. Just because the “old firm” seem big fish in a small pond doesn’t mean they’d be quite as relevant in the PL. If they’re hammered every week by average English teams, what then?
4. Which English clubs does he expect to roll over to let them in?
5. Do English fans want this anyway?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

So the BBC are now reporting that Moyes wants a British League, including Rangers and Celtic, with a split premier league to reduce the number of games. Promotion and relegation from the Scottish and English pyramids. What about the Welsh pyramid?

Moyes calls for unified British league

David Moyes believes the failure of the breakaway European Super League (ESL) provides an opportunity to consider a unified British competition instead.

www.bbc.co.uk

1. I doubt he would be saying that if West Ham were down in the relegation zone this season.
2. He seems unaware that current Scottish politicians would never allow it - as it’s too British by far.
3. Just because the “old firm” seem big fish in a small pond doesn’t mean they’d be quite as relevant in the PL. If they’re hammered every week by average English teams, what then?
4. Which English clubs does he expect to roll over to let them in?
5. Do English fans want this anyway?

Think back to the 2012 Olympics, there was vociferous opposition to the entering of a combined "Team GB" from both the Scottish and Welsh FAs who feared it would lead to FIFA and/or UEFA enforcing a permanent merger of the separate Associations and national teams within the UK.

 

[swt_passenger]

Think back to the 2012 Olympics, there was vociferous opposition to the entering of a combined "Team GB" from both the Scottish and Welsh FAs who feared it would lead to FIFA and/or UEFA enforcing a permanent merger of the separate Associations and national teams within the UK.

That’s very relevant. Would be very difficult to argue against if all the clubs were theoretically in the same league pyramid system. So if that did happen you’d need Northern Ireland involved as well...

 

[Typhoon]

This isn't over, not by a long means. The owners of these clubs will have, in their eyes at least, have been scuppered from their plans to print huge bags of money. And they are not the kind of people to forget that in a hurry.

...

This isn't over yet.

You are so right.

Real Madrid president Florentino Perez says the 12 clubs that agreed to join a new European Super League have "binding contracts" and "cannot leave".

Nine of the 12 teams, including all six Premier League clubs, withdrew from the proposed tournament on Tuesday after the plan sparked a furious backlash.

Real Madrid, Barcelona and Juventus have not yet abandoned the project.

"I don't need to explain what a binding contract is, but effectively the clubs cannot leave," Perez told newspaper AS.

"Some of them, due to pressure, have said they're leaving. But this project, or one very similar, will move forward and I hope very soon."

The Real president added it was "not true" American investment bank JP Morgan - who had provided a 3.5bn euro (£2.8bn) grant to the founding members - had abandoned the ESL.

"They have taken some time for reflection, just like the 12 clubs. If we need to make changes we will but the Super League is the best project we've thought of," Perez said.

"What we have done is taken a few weeks to reflect in light of the fury of certain people who don't want to lose their privileges and have manipulated the project."

Perez said on Thursday - in the aftermath of Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool, Manchester City, Manchester United and Tottenham's withdrawing - that the ESL was still on "standby".

La Liga club Atletico Madrid and Italian sides AC Milan and Inter Milan have also formally pulled out, while Juventus chairman Andrea Agnelli admitted the project could no longer proceed.

Looks like it may he heading for the courts.

The emphasis, which is mine, suggests that Perez thinks it might just be a matter of tweaking the system when I am sure a lot of supporters want it binned.

From https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/56873448

 

[Old Yard Dog]

Greed isn't confined to football's biggest clubs.

When the National League was given an £11 million bail out grant from the National Lottery last autumn, we had a few greedy clubs screaming "We are entitled to more money than you because we have more fans".

I think this embarrassing internecine squabbling was one of the main reasons why subsequent bail outs were in the form of loans not grants. The government & National Lottery did not want to see a repeat. This led to the curtailment of the NLN & NLS seasons.

The same greedy clubs are now pushing for an EGM in order to pursue a motion of "no confidence" in the NL management board. Interestingly they are also arguing that NLN and NLS clubs should be given more votes at National League meetings instead of the 8 they currently share between the 44 clubs. This is unbelievably hypocritical. In February, the same greedy clubs cynically voted for a resolution which would, in essence, have had the fate of NLS & NLN seasons decided by the clubs in the top division instead of letting the NLS & NLN clubs come to their own decision.

 

[SteveM70]

Greed isn't confined to football's biggest clubs.

When the National League was given an £11 million bail out grant from the National Lottery last autumn, we had a few greedy clubs screaming "We are entitled to more money than you because we have more fans".

I think this embarrassing internecine squabbling was one of the main reasons why subsequent bail outs were in the form of loans not grants. The government & National Lottery did not want to see a repeat. This led to the curtailment of the NLN & NLS seasons.

The same greedy clubs are now pushing for an EGM in order to pursue a motion of "no confidence" in the NL management board. Interestingly they are also arguing that NLN and NLS clubs should be given more votes at National League meetings instead of the 8 they currently share between the 44 clubs. This is unbelievably hypocritical. In February, the same greedy clubs cynically voted for a resolution which would, in essence, have had the fate of NLS & NLN seasons decided by the clubs in the top division instead of letting the NLS & NLN clubs come to their own decision.

Interesting. Who exactly do you class as the “greedy clubs”?

 

[Old Yard Dog]

AFC Fylde, AFC Telford, Dulwich Hamlet, Hereford, Kidderminster, Maidstone, Dorking and Chesterfield were among the first in NLN & NLS to complain about the distribution of the £11 million pound grant.

And 18 of the 43 clubs in NLN & NLS voted tactically & cynically to have their seasons, in effect, determined by the National division. But not one of the 23 clubs in the higher division wanted to do this and so the resolution fell.

 

[DarloRich]

AFC Fylde, AFC Telford, Dulwich Hamlet, Hereford, Kidderminster, Maidstone, Dorking and Chesterfield were among the first in NLN & NLS to complain about the distribution of the £11 million pound grant.

And 18 of the 43 clubs in NLN & NLS voted tactically & cynically to have their seasons, in effect, determined by the National division. But not one of the 23 clubs in the higher division wanted to do this and so the resolution fell.

The whole thing has been a total sh*t show. Our CEO has been very vocal about this.

 

[Haywain]

Think back to the 2012 Olympics, there was vociferous opposition to the entering of a combined "Team GB" from both the Scottish and Welsh FAs who feared it would lead to FIFA and/or UEFA enforcing a permanent merger of the separate Associations and national teams within the UK.

It's not just about the teams, the current structure also gives enormous influence on changes to the laws of the game through having 50% of the seats on IFAB - one seat for each 'home' nation.

 

[adrock1976]

Regarding this botched attempt for a closed shop tournament, I have a suggestion for a Europe wide tournament that is an open shop.

Each winner of their respective top flight division are ranked based on their performance over the previous five years, the sides get drawn together out of two hats (one each for high and low ranking sides). This is done up to the Quarter Final stage, where it becomes clear what the potential opponents are.

The name for this tournament would be European Club Championship Cup (or European Cup for short).

In other words, the top level tournament would require the pre-requisite for participation in it for the sides to have won their top flight division. No runners up, third, fourth, fifth also-rans. That way, each winner of the tournament can proudly state that they have won it by doing things the proper way in winning the top flight division. After all, if you cast your mind back to the Liverpool - Tottenham Hotspur final in 2019, neither side had participated in the tournament the proper way as neither of them won the top flight division the previous season, nor any silverware at all. What were they champions of exactly?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Regarding this botched attempt for a closed shop tournament, I have a suggestion for a Europe wide tournament that is an open shop.

Each winner of their respective top flight division are ranked based on their performance over the previous five years, the sides get drawn together out of two hats (one each for high and low ranking sides). This is done up to the Quarter Final stage, where it becomes clear what the potential opponents are.

The name for this tournament would be European Club Championship Cup (or European Cup for short).

In other words, the top level tournament would require the pre-requisite for participation in it for the sides to have won their top flight division. No runners up, third, fourth, fifth also-rans. That way, each winner of the tournament can proudly state that they have won it by doing things the proper way in winning the top flight division. After all, if you cast your mind back to the Liverpool - Tottenham Hotspur final in 2019, neither side had participated in the tournament the proper way as neither of them won the top flight division the previous season, nor any silverware at all. What were they champions of exactly?

It's ironic that the introduction of the word "champions" coincided with the change that meant you didn't have to be champions in order to compete. The old system was better in a purist sense, but football as it is today is led by money.
Nottingham Forest are currently the only team in Europe who have been European Champions more times (2) than they've won the domestic championship (1). That record is almost as under-threat as my own team's record of three successive English League titles- which has been matched by 3 (Arsenal, Liverpool, Manchester United) but so far unsurpassed.

If the European Super League happened, it would make my nightmare scenario of that team up the A62 being the first to get four in a row way more likely!

 

[roversfan2001]

That record is almost as under-threat as my own team's record of three successive English League titles- which has been matched by 3 (Arsenal, Liverpool, Manchester United) but so far unsurpassed.

On the subject of successive competition wins, our record of three successive FA Cup wins is safe for another three years at least - 135 years after the last of our three, and 93 years since our last FA Cup title full stop.

 

[AlterEgo]

It's ironic that the introduction of the word "champions" coincided with the change that meant you didn't have to be champions in order to compete. The old system was better in a purist sense, but football as it is today is led by money.

The old competition was also far weaker and with a smaller pool of good competitors.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The old competition was also far weaker and with a smaller pool of good competitors.

You say that...

But I don't see Steaua Bucharest or any club of similar stature (Villa or Forest for example) coming close to European glory these days. I'd argue that the competition is less competitive than it was previously.

Not that my team are likely to be competing in Europe any time soon. How about bringing back the Anglo-Italian Cup?

 

[AlterEgo]

You say that...

But I don't see Steaua Bucharest or any club of similar stature (Villa or Forest for example) coming close to European glory these days. I'd argue that the competition is less competitive than it was previously.

It’s more competitive - it’s far harder for a team, once in the competition, to win it. Unless you mean “competitive” as a synonym for “reduced quality”.

 

[Loppylugs]

AFC Fylde, AFC Telford, Dulwich Hamlet, Hereford, Kidderminster, Maidstone, Dorking and Chesterfield were among the first in NLN & NLS to complain about the distribution of the £11 million pound grant.

And 18 of the 43 clubs in NLN & NLS voted tactically & cynically to have their seasons, in effect, determined by the National division. But not one of the 23 clubs in the higher division wanted to do this and so the resolution fell.

Do you mean Chester rather than Chesterfield ?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

It’s more competitive - it’s far harder for a team, once in the competition, to win it. Unless you mean “competitive” as a synonym for “reduced quality”.

The same handful of teams being in the semi-finals every year does not mean improved quality or improved competition to me. The older format was far more competitive in that the less glamorous sides that qualified had a greater chance of making the semi finals or going on to win outright. That, in and of itself, does not automatically mean the quality is lower.

If anything the quality is far lower under the current system- there's just more of it. With the group stages there's always going to be a fair few meaningless "dead rubber" games. That doesn't happen with a pure knockout competition. Seeing Real Madrid put six past a side that fluked 3rd place in the previous year's French league and are already mathematically eliminated does not spell high quality entertainment to me at least.

 

[JamesT]

The same handful of teams being in the semi-finals every year does not mean improved quality or improved competition to me. The older format was far more competitive in that the less glamorous sides that qualified had a greater chance of making the semi finals or going on to win outright. That, in and of itself, does not automatically mean the quality is lower.

If anything the quality is far lower under the current system- there's just more of it. With the group stages there's always going to be a fair few meaningless "dead rubber" games. That doesn't happen with a pure knockout competition. Seeing Real Madrid put six past a side that fluked 3rd place in the previous year's French league and are already mathematically eliminated does not spell high quality entertainment to me at least.

There are some teams that are always at the sharp end, and pretty much always have been. Looking through the list of finals going back to the 50s, Bayern Munich, Real Madrid, AC Milan, and Barcelona are there an awful lot.
Although it would be a meaningful match if the competition reverted to a straight knock-out, is Rangers vs. Bayern Munich likely to be anything but a stuffing?
The league format does avoid one of the pitfalls of the two-legged knockout, where teams try and play extremely defensively in the first leg hoping for a draw and then to try and win it in the second leg. Most of the group stage matches are meaningful, many groups go to the final week with teams still requiring a result to qualify.