German Rail in decline ?

[Richard Scott]

Dear Richard, beside your agressive I do doubt that you have enough inside knowledge of how the system works.
Slandering the staff who work under tremendous pressure is really beyond words.

No, it's not being aggressive, I was asked if it was about waiting for connections which is definitely not what was happening and it was inferred that I was just assuming. I'd rather people didn't treat me like I was stupid and just made a statement. What I said was based on my observations and own experiences. I have spent enough time in Germany to make sufficient observations.
When I see staff dithering around and not getting their train sorted then that's not anything to me knowing or not knowing about how system works. If staff are looking at something to sort a problem out I can see that and tell the difference. If they are waiting for a connection I can work that out too.

It’s not that you don’t have a point but… If that was the only problem German rail had at the moment…



You are a know-it-all, are you?

No, I'd rather you weren't so rude. You made a statement doubting what I said, I just gave my observations. That's not being a know-it-all that's just telling you what I've observed. I'm afraid last time I was in Germany I observed that regularly.

 

[duesselmartin]

Dear Richard. Sadly this discussion is getting out of hand. Obviously my experience differs significantly from yours. The German system suffers from a multitude of problems, all of them mentioned in the discussion.
Observations often don't show the full picture. What is certain is that most od DB staff are also dissatisfied or even frustrated by the performance of their employer. Most staff are proud railway men and women and go beyond the call of duty to make the system work. Only when you keep running against a wall you might stop running at one point.
I hope we can return to a normal tone of discussion. This is not drehscheibe -online after all.
Best wishes.
Martin

 

[bahnause]

I have been traveling intensively in Germany for the last few days. Apart from some minor incidents like a cancelled S-Bahn and a delay in long-distance traffic of 12 minutes, everything was quite normal. The long-distance trains are always very busy on Fridays and Sundays. During the week, I have not experienced a single overcrowded train. The local traffic was also usable, due to the tenders obviously carried out by little knowledgeable or interested bodies qualitatively quite mixed.

And as an extra, I drove train 76 from Zurich to Basel today. An ICE4. Not a single malfunction on the train, not even small things like a defective door or a broken air conditioning/heating. All is not lost yet.

 

[Austriantrain]

Thanks, Bahnause!

All is certainly not well in Germany (and neither it is in my own country, Austria) but I wonder how this thread has gone downhill so fast in a „you are all morons“ way.

I aim to be diplomatic, but all is certainly not well in British railway land either, so we should all hold our horses.

 

[Richard Scott]

Dear Richard. Sadly this discussion is getting out of hand. Obviously my experience differs significantly from yours. The German system suffers from a multitude of problems, all of them mentioned in the discussion.
Observations often don't show the full picture. What is certain is that most od DB staff are also dissatisfied or even frustrated by the performance of their employer. Most staff are proud railway men and women and go beyond the call of duty to make the system work. Only when you keep running against a wall you might stop running at one point.
I hope we can return to a normal tone of discussion. This is not drehscheibe -online after all.
Best wishes.
Martin

I may have been unlucky. I do enjoy Germany as a country and always love visiting and for about 20 years rail travel was a pleasure. Unfortunately in recent years it's just been hard work. Maybe I wasn't so bothered a few years back with plenty of loco hauled regional trains that I just picked up what was about. It used to be SNCF that were the worst by a mile but now I'm not so sure.

 

[AdamWW]

urich to Basel today. An ICE4. Not a single malfunction on the train, not even small things like a defective door or a broken air conditioning/heating. All is not lost yet.

Defective doors?

I was on an ICE a few years ago with a seat at the front. At the start the driver came through, opened the door to the cab....and it came off in his hand...

 

[duesselmartin]

Hi Richard,
Your impression that services are worse than say 10 years ago is sadly true and upcoming engineering wont make it any better. I therefore I can understand your frustration. I just think the culprits are in the Bahn-Tower on Potsdamer Platz and at politics level.

Best wishes.
Martin

 

[Richard Scott]

Hi Richard,
Your impression that services are worse than say 10 years ago is sadly true and upcoming engineering wont make it any better. I therefore I can understand your frustration. I just think the culprits are in the Bahn-Tower on Potsdamer Platz and at politics level.

Best wishes.
Martin

This is what I'm seeing and experiencing. I know all systems across Europe are noticeably busier (with passengers) than they were even10 years ago, so more trains running putting more strain on networks but sitting on laurels for years is now catching up with them. Also 10 years ago I could go to one area and still have lots of loco hauled regional trains and stay all day. Nowadays use IC trains much more frequently so notice issues more than I would have done. Having said that it's certainly been much more frustrating in past 3 years or so.

 

[Austriantrain]

This is what I'm seeing and experiencing. I know all systems across Europe are noticeably busier (with passengers) than they were even10 years ago, so more trains running putting more strain on networks but sitting on laurels for years is now catching up with them. Also 10 years ago I could go to one area and still have lots of loco hauled regional trains and stay all day. Nowadays use IC trains much more frequently so notice issues more than I would have done. Having said that it's certainly been much more frustrating in past 3 years or so.

The reason is lack of investment into the German network, not lazy staff.

 

[Richard Scott]

The reason is lack of investment into the German network, not lazy staff.

Ok, I concede I was a bit harsh but have seen staff milling around when train should be leaving and that was point I was trying to make. Again, maybe unlucky; to be fair also had some great staff on board (like the guard who came to see if I wanted to change coaches as air con broken, thanked him but said was ok as only on for a short distance) so hopefully redressed the balance?

 

[Austriantrain]

Ok, I concede I was a bit harsh but have seen staff milling around when train should be leaving and that was point I was trying to make. Again, maybe unlucky; to be fair also had some great staff on board (like the guard who came to see if I wanted to change coaches as air con broken, thanked him but said was ok as only on for a short distance) so hopefully redressed the balance?

Yes

It’s not that you don’t have a point, but the real problems are elsewhere I think.

 

[U-Bahnfreund]

Do other countries also have this specific staff shortage problem not just with drivers, but with signallers as well? Here's two lines where many or all trains on weekends are cancelled because there's not enough signallers:

RB46 Gelnhausen – Nidda/RB48 Friedberg – Nidda: Fahrplanänderungen, Ausfälle und Busnotverkehr ab 01.10.2023 bis voraussichtlich 09.12.2023 – HLB Online

hlb-online.de

RB96 Herdorf – Dillenburg: Kurzfristige Ausfälle und Busnotverkehr vom 23.09. bis 09.12.2023, jeweils samstags ab 17 Uhr bis sonntags 10 Uhr – HLB Online

hlb-online.de

 

[Citistar]

I'm sure signallers will soon go in to short supply as we currently have issues with Air Traffic Controllers. Staffing shortages seem to be everywhere in the transport industry.

 

[DanielB]

Do other countries also have this specific staff shortage problem not just with drivers, but with signallers as well? Here's two lines where many or all trains on weekends are cancelled because there's not enough signallers:

The Netherlands had that problem last year, but in the mean time signaller training has been ramped up. This has resulted in more trainee signallers, also the training has been improved increasing resulting in 70% instead of just 50% of students passing their exams. Additionally the options for remote working have been improved, enabling a signaller from for example Zwolle to monitor traffic in Utrecht when needed (and when the replacement signaller has sufficient local infrastructure knowledge).

The problem isn't gone here, but there haven't been any cancellations due to signaller shortage recently.

In other public transport the situation is really mixed with some operators having enough staff to run most of their buses while others need to run a reduced timetable. Last year it has even happened that buses in an entire province where stopped because of an unmanned workstation at the traffic control centre of the respective operator.
The contrast is sometimes enormous within a small area: in the tiny Utrecht province there are two operators, one of which has announced to be able to run 100% of their planned services in 2024, while the other has hardly enough staff to run 84%.

Both with buses and trains there's also another problem: bus drivers can't drive because they have to wait for their exam to obtain the driving licence (the agency organising the exams has staff shortage as well). And train drivers who've passed their exams are waiting for the Dutch transport safety board to issue their license, also due to staff shortage.

 

[scarby]

I travelled across from London to Stockholm by rail over the past couple of days and I have to say the experience with trains in Germany was abysmal.

Every train I travelled on was delayed, including Köln- Hamburg by 80 minutes. Practically every inter-city train I observed was delayed. A Flix train from Köln to Hamburg came in 150 minutes late!

One of the worst aspects is standing on the platform with all luggage, expecting the train to arrive in 15 minutes, and then the delay goes 20-30-40-50-60-70 as you just stand there in frustration.

Secondly the lack of trust in the services meant I arrived in Hamburg 3 and a half hours before the night train to Stockholm, as I was so concerned about a later, in theory much more convenient connection not working. Which of course is not how rail travel should be at all.

As far as I am concerned, the conclusion is quite simple - I won't be using rail in Germany again for many years.

Amazingly, despite this appalling service, the trains were astonishingly busy.

 

[TravellingPhil]

I'm off to a bad start...I don't go for three weeks yet!

I'm booked from Amsterdam to Copenhagen with an overnight in Hamburg on the 2nd/3rd October. Then I'm booked from Hamburg to Brussels with a change in Koln on the 15th October. Loaded my tickets into the new DB Next App, and it's showing, 'Your orginal journey has been cancelled, please find a new connection for your trip' for both journeys! Just out of the blue, no contact from DB themselves. I've sent them an online form obviously as there's no actual advice on how to find and book a new connection. This will be interesting. A part of me is thinking to just turn up for my trains and see how I get on. I have a hotel at the end of each journey so I'm not risking any international connections or getting stranded.

Just a quick update.

Went to the international train office at Amsterdam Centraal and showed the lady there what the app was showing. She had a look at her system and couldn’t find why it was showing that and that I should just board my train.

I then had a remarkably smooth and pleasant journey to Hamburg. The bistro was open on the IC and the at seat bistro service was even available in first class on the ICE.

The only issues were the lifts being out of order at Osnabruck and the boardbistro on the ICE had run out of fries to go with my currywurst!

Arrived in Hamburg bang on time so who knows what the DB app was trying to tell me!

 

[geoffk]

Your next excuse is on platform 5 – German train travel has become an experience worthy of Kafka | Jens Schneider

Erratic Deutsche Bahn services make our commutes a misery. Luckily, their meaningless announcements are an art form, says German journalist Jens Schneider

www.theguardian.com

Now this report in the Guardian describing the recent experience of an orchestra travelling from Munich to Berlin.

 

[duesselmartin]

That has been widely debated. It seems while a lot went wrong on that trip, the orchestras planning was not perfect either.

 

[geoffk]

That has been widely debated. It seems while a lot went wrong on that trip, the orchestras planning was not perfect either.

The concert was on 12th September. Playing Mahler 2 must have been the least stressful part of the day.

 

[jonty14]

Not just a railway issue, but in Western Germany there is a massive amount of infrastructure dating from the 1950s -1970s (postwar rebuilding and Wirtschaftswunder) that has all reached the point at which lots of money needs spending on it at once.

The Stuttgart underground tram stations for example. Complicated and uninviting.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Stuttgart underground tram stations for example. Complicated and uninviting.

Of Germany generally I'm amazed how little things have changed since the 1990s (bar the reduction of loco haulage) when compared to how Manchester (say) might as well have become an entirely different city in that time. Sure, there is a fair element of "if it ain't broke don't fix it", but it does make many buildings, stations etc look very dated.

 

[Richard Scott]

Of Germany generally I'm amazed how little things have changed since the 1990s (bar the reduction of loco haulage) when compared to how Manchester (say) might as well have become an entirely different city in that time. Sure, there is a fair element of "if it ain't broke don't fix it", but it does make many buildings, stations etc look very dated.

Think most of the money was spent on the network in the former East? Lots of stations there were rebuilt from early 2000s onwards.
Only one in former West being rebuilt that I can remember was Luebeck around 2005?

 

[Gaelan]

There were no real-time timetables available that I could find - I’ve got used to being able to look at National Rail and work out what to do if my train is late but there was nothing like that that I could find for DB.

https://bahn.expert/ seems quite good, though I haven't actually been to Germany so I can't vouch for how useful it is in practice. One issue of note: it displays times in your browser's time zone, so if your computer is set to UK time all the times shown will be an hour off.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Think most of the money was spent on the network in the former East? Lots of stations there were rebuilt from early 2000s onwards.
Only one in former West being rebuilt that I can remember was Luebeck around 2005?

Luebeck was an interesting one - they basically jacked the whole thing up on stilts to fit the wires in, if I recall.

 

[Fragezeichnen]

There were no real-time timetables available that I could find - I’ve got used to being able to look at National Rail and work out what to do if my train is late but there was nothing like that that I could find for DB.

This is the DB real time arrival/departures page

D = All long distance trains that are not IC/EC/ICE (extremely rare these days)
NV = All regional trains that are not an S-Bahn

 

[dutchflyer]

The reason is lack of investment into the German network, not lazy staff.

Being on my way-again, on a delayed NS/NL train now (after a slow running freight before) to DE=Germany, to use a new day on my DE-ticket: this is just half, the other half is serious LACK of staff, more on the various other as DB operators as big mother itself.
On several regional lines around the Rhein Ruhr area on weekends just half of all ordered trains run. And that is without even works or other mishaps along that line.
In Sept, the punctuality rate on DB-Fern (IC/ICE etc.) sank even further to below 60%.
I myself highly doubt is its only lack of investment-as giant sums have been spent to update the former DDR/DR-network in the east. But tat also likely caused a backlog to update in the west.

 

[Richard Scott]

Luebeck was an interesting one - they basically jacked the whole thing up on stilts to fit the wires in, if I recall.

They rebuilt it, remember watching them gas axe the old supports. May have retained the old roof. Also remember ticket office being in a portacabin for a while.

 

[duesselmartin]

Of course also other big projects are on such as Stuttgart 21 and Duisburg Hbf.
East Germany was mentioned.
Again the debate confirms that the trouble is created by a bundle of issues.
In general infrastructure was neglected in the west since 1990 and in Germany as a whole in the last 18 years.

 

[The exile]

Of course also other big projects are on such as Stuttgart 21 and Duisburg Hbf.
East Germany was mentioned.
Again the debate confirms that the trouble is created by a bundle of issues.
In general infrastructure was neglected in the west since 1990 and in Germany as a whole in the last 18 years.

Remember years ago talking to various people involved with major infrastructure companies - all hinting at the trouble that was brewing when all the “Wirtschaftswunder” infrastructure started to wear out at once. This was precisely at the time money was flowing into the East and had basically been turned off in the West.

 

[duesselmartin]

Only investment did not resume in the west after 2000. That is for both road or rail