Government set to go ahead with Labour Thameslink and NW plans

[b0b]

Daft question, but could you take out the non-panto middle car of the 319 to make a 3 car unit, so they can be used in multiple where there isn't room for 8 car trains?

 

[ukrob]

Daft question, but could you take out the non-panto middle car of the 319 to make a 3 car unit, so they can be used in multiple where there isn't room for 8 car trains?

And in the process remove 25% of the capacity from lines which have stations which only take four cars - which would be a decrease in the current capacity on many services.

Sorry I didn't give a technical answer - but it would be a pointless exercise for the above reason.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Yes and no. Unlike the 317s before it, the 319 has it's main air tank on the ATS, it would have to be moved to accomodate the loss of the coach, you'd also lose the toilet and retention tank, and probably more equipment I can't think of right now.

 

[WatcherZero]

Im getting confused now, different sources are quoting different days for an announcement, Tuesday in some papers and Thursday in others. Mind you theyve been saying tuesday or thursday for the last fortnight so perhaps their just guessing....

 

[northwichcat]

Indeed if the North West isn't happy then I'm sure there are routes in Yorkshire that will quite happily take them and inherent electrification on

Yorkshire have been complaning about 4 cars not being enough on Wharfedale and Airedale and can't run in multiple due to platform lengths since before any 319 cacade had been suggested. It'll be just the same if 319s start running Blackpool services.

 

[cle]

I think frequencies are going to be raised significantly.

The only place which can't take it is Piccadilly, and along the viaduct to Deansgate.

But this is why they are wiring to Victoria. That whole line could easily handle another 2tph to Liverpool and Blackpool (one via Wigan, one via Chorley) - and one in between those two would be easy too. I would imagine more trains between Manchester and Lakes/Scotland too.

The amount of units is huge for the North West and the assets exist already, so frequency here makes more economic sense than platform lengthening/capacity-based methods.

 

[northwichcat]

The only place which can't take it is Piccadilly, and along the viaduct to Deansgate.

With Piccadilly services being the most crowded so having more need for an increase than Victoria or Liverpool.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

...of the Northern ones there are two 180s used each day, but the rest are mainly individual Pacers/ individual 150/156s. There are a couple of Pacers coupled to Sprinters, and a couple of doubled Pacers, but really not *that* large a proportion.

Single Pacers may occasionally appear on the Victoria's but Hazel Groves are all booked for single Sprinters, doubled up Sprinters or 180s. OK there may not be that many doubled up Sprinters or 180s but they include the busiest services. People have posted messages on forums complaning that the 180s are not big enough to run Bolton-Manchester in the peaks.

I can't see any reason for complaining about what will be a massive increase in capacity. Look at the line through Manchester Oxford Road/ Deansgate. Dozens of services and almost all are three coaches or shorter. A real waste of capacity.

Electrification won't change that completly. It will mean 150s and 156s are cascaded down to replace 142s on non-electrified routes which will mean those routes will see a slight increase in capacity but it will leave short trains running around the Manchester area. 142s have to go by 2019 and by the time the Thameslink order is placed and the 319s have been refurbished it'll mean it's time for the 142s to start going. If the Pacers start needing major work to keep going in a few years time it won't be economically viable to do.

 

[mwmbwls]

And in the process remove 25% of the capacity from lines which have stations which only take four cars - which would be a decrease in the current capacity on many services.

Sorry I didn't give a technical answer - but it would be a pointless exercise for the above reason.

Removing the non driving trailer car was exactly what happened to the 304's , the first build of 25kv electric stock for the Manchester, Birmingham and Liverpool electrification - to reduce running and repair costs during the last or maybe last but two recessions. but that was at a time when passenger numbers were falling.

Many of the six car stations - particularly those served by TPE service the longer TPE 185 stock. The 319's are shorter than the 185 to allow for transit of limited clearances between Farringdon and City Thameslink. South Easterns Networkers from Beckenham Junction had to turn round in the sidings under Smithfield Market.

Although many stations do these days only service trains of six car length - in many cases longer platform formations still exist. All the stations on the Wigan - Atherton - Salford route remain at full size (although they are not part of the electrification programme yet). In the case of the really short and hard to lengthen stations , SDO could be brought into operation fairly easily when the in train matrix comms systems are up. Because the trains to Southport/Kirkby from Manchester are not included for the sparks - short diesel trains could continue to call at Farnworth, Kearsley and Moses Gate - whilst the Barrows could call at Adlington. It would be prudent as they start on Buckshaw Park to build it long enough in the first place.

As for cutting off the DC shoe bars. Eurostar ran a fairly prompt cut off operation following the move from North Pole to Stratford - however in the North West retaining some if not all DC capability on the stock might be sensible if the proposed Merseyrail electrification from Bidston to Wrexhamr comes through on local funding. Who knows even Ormskirk, Burscough, Southport and Preston, together with Kirkby to Skelmersdale might find a head wind if they don't have to finance a new stock build and 25kv is cheaper than extending the third rail. After all running second hand trains is what got the Aire Valley line from Leeds to Skipton electrified. As they say - waste not want not.

Finally a Group challenge - making the difference between thinking and knowing. Relying on the corporarte local knowledge of the group if we listed all the stations affected in the North West electrification programe we should be able to rank all those that need no modification to run eight car 319 sets, those than need refurbishment of existing but unused platforms, those that for whom the existing four or even two cars trains are a tight fit for which SDO may be the answer.

Finally the North West seems to have more than its fair share of low platforms - Burscough Bridge for example. How many platforms involved in the electrification scheme will need raising as a whole to make that DDA compliant. This should not be regarded as specific electrification cost because it is independent of lengthening the trains but obviously should be done at the same time. Extending those handy little ramps might be a good idea.

 

[gwr2006]

Im getting confused now, different sources are quoting different days for an announcement, Tuesday in some papers and Thursday in others. Mind you theyve been saying tuesday or thursday for the last fortnight so perhaps their just guessing....

The House of Commons Business for Thursday (Westminster Hall, not the main chamber) -

2.30pm-5pm Impact of the Comprehensive Spending Review on the Department for Transport

I'd guess Thursday is the safe bet for any announcement!

 

[Invincibles]

My thought on the whole platform length and capacity issue is that there should be more fast services from Manchester Airport to Preston and that these should be infilled with stoppers.

If fast trains operate from Piccadilly, maybe 2 per hour as there currently are 3 paths for, then they can serve the important stations on the route and potentially be 8 car.

Bolton, Preston and Blackpool North will take 8 car trains so quite easily one of the trains could do that journey.

As with the Manchester Oxford Road - Liverpool service there is room at Oxford Road to start services. So a 4 car starting from Oxford Road and serving Deansgate, Salford Crescent and then Bolton would actually give the passengers from those services a better option than they currently have as getting a seat would be possible. The train can be run in the current "Fast" xx45 from Piccadilly slot and then be caught at Bolton by the current "Slow" Hazel Grove - Blackpool North path at Bolton.

A slight bit of engineering at Bolton to install a loop would allow the 4 car to stop at the extreme south end and then the 8 car to stop in the front section. Passengers wanting a faster journey could change from 4 car to 8 car along the same platform and then continue to Preston only (possibly Horwich Parkway could be extended) while the 4 car would continue to serve Lostock, Horwich, Blackrod, Adlington, Chorley, Buckshaw, Leyland and Preston in what would be the slow path.

From what I can tell the only problem is that the current xx45 from Piccadilly would now be about 8 minutes later and so miss its path on the WCML. However as it currently only crosses over to Blackpool maybe that will not be a problem.

For the other service the "stopper" would come from Victoria and be timed to arrive just ahead of the TPE Scotland service, similar transfers could take place and then the fast continue to Chorley, Preston, the north as currently. The "stopper" would then depart Bolton in the path of the current stopper from Victoria to Blackpool North.

This would give the local stations a good service to Manchester (Oxford Road and Victoria) and short connection time at Bolton for Piccadilly and the airport.

I really doubt that any train from Piccadilly to Blackpool would need to be 8 car but it would certainly take care of the big problem i find with trains on the route, people who just use it from Manchester to Bolton.

By having the fastest journey as the Manchester Airport to Blackpool train there is less pressure on the Scotland service and that would still maintain its current timings so would not be troubled by any changes.

Adding loops through the middle of Bolton should be simple enough, certainly there used to be tracks there, and electrification would be a very good time to do it.

The main thing that makes me like this idea is that it does not need any adjustment to paths through Piccadilly 13/14 (indeed it frees one)

 

[ukrob]

I would imagine there would be a large scale timetable recast so what would work now probably won't work then

 

[cle]

And I believe they are pushing a shift towards Victoria anyway - and TPE is going to move some trains there.

Wasn't there talk of electrifying out to Stalybridge, to have that as the terminus for Liverpool/Blackpool trains?

And is there any talk of adding platforms to the lines at Salford Central, and renaming to Spinningfields? This would surely help the Piccadilly > Victoria demand, which isn't actually that rational considering where the jobs and shops are. Victoria is just forgotten, largely.

 

[tbtc]

I think frequencies are going to be raised significantly.

The only place which can't take it is Piccadilly, and along the viaduct to Deansgate

Agred, that line is pretty much at capacity. You could get many more trains over a two track line, but not easily considering you are talking trains which come from Edinburgh/ Scarborough/ Norwich/ Barrow - there's little scope for more trains.

So, lets look at the services through 13/14 each hour:

Norwich - Liverpool. Unaffected by the electrification
Scarborough - Liverpool. Unaffected by the electrification
Manchester - Llandudno. Unaffected by the electrification


Hazel Grove - Preston. Can be anything, from one of the two 180s used each day to single/double Pacer/ Sprinter combinations. Hard to say whether this would be an increase or decrease in capacity, but would give more uniform capacity and would avoid the panic whenever a 180 won't work.

Manchester Airport - Liverpool (via Chat Moss) Usually a single 156 (?) so a four car 319 would be an increase

Manchester Airport - Southport (via Wigan). Usually a single 156 (?) so a four car 319 would be an increase

Manchester Airport - Blackpool (via Preston). Usually a single 185, so a four car 319 would be an increase

Manchester Airport - Barrow/ Glasgow/ Edinburgh (via Preston). Sometimes a single 185, sometimes doubled up for portion working, so a four car 319 would be an increase on some trips but decrease on others

However, four 319s an hour from Piccadilly to Bolton would help to smooth passenger demand between them - often you see people aiming for the "bigger" trains like the 185s.

Now, the next question is whether a doubled up 319 could cope with all the Transpennine stops from Manchester Airport to Preston? They can cope with six car 185s certainly.

The other services in the North West are a no-brainer. Liverpool - Blackpool is usually a single 158 and Liverpool - Wigan (half hourly) is usually just two coaches (Pacer or Sprinter)

(please bear in mind that these are based on my own evidence- I've seen various random workings and seen more reported, but am trying to stick to the "norm")

 

[YorkshireBear]

Well to me, piccadilly is completely overloaded, so victoria is gonna have to start making a better impact, its still gettin refurbished even after government cuts ?

And with electrification comes a new life with good marketing and good operational sense they may be able to make it take more of its share of manchester services

Which TPE services will be switching to Victoria anyone?

Also could the arriva trains wales service not terminate at victoria instead of on the through platforms at piccadilly... ?

 

[tbtc]

Electrification won't change that completly. It will mean 150s and 156s are cascaded down to replace 142s on non-electrified routes which will mean those routes will see a slight increase in capacity but it will leave short trains running around the Manchester area. 142s have to go by 2019 and by the time the Thameslink order is placed and the 319s have been refurbished it'll mean it's time for the 142s to start going. If the Pacers start needing major work to keep going in a few years time it won't be economically viable to do.

I'm not claiming that electrification will eliminate all "short" trains in the Manchester area, but it will mean an increase in the capacity on the main corridors which the 319s work on (e.g. Manchester to Bolton to Preston), and will allow "saved" DMUs to bolster capacity on other routes (e.g. Manchester to Wigan) which aren't getting wired just yet.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Well to me, piccadilly is completely overloaded, so victoria is gonna have to start making a better impact, its still gettin refurbished even after government cuts ?

And with electrification comes a new life with good marketing and good operational sense they may be able to make it take more of its share of manchester services

Which TPE services will be switching to Victoria anyone?

Also could the arriva trains wales service not terminate at victoria instead of on the through platforms at piccadilly... ?

Agreed.

The plan I heard was that all "Huddersfield" TPE services would run to Victoria, with two/ hour extending via Oxford Road/ Piccadilly/ Manchester Airport, but that Victoria would be the "main" station for the Huddersfield line.

Similarly, the Chat Moss services could all go to Victoria, same with the Wigan ones. The only reason for not doing so is the benefit of getting to the Airport, but the Northern Hub plans for four/ hour from Victoria to the Airport (via Piccadilly).

Victoria has the free minibus into the (heart of the) city centre, it has the tram to much of the centre too, there's no reason not to use it more. At the moment its stuck in the "nobody wants to use it because nothing much goes from there because nothing much uses it" vicious circle. I mean, if you were in Manchester and wanted to go to Preston, would you go to Piccadilly (three trains per hour) or Victoria (one train per hour)? Most people would instinctively go to the bigger station where more trains leave from. Put services back into Victoria and see it grow.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Agreed.

The plan I heard was that all "Huddersfield" TPE services would run to Victoria, with two/ hour extending via Oxford Road/ Piccadilly/ Manchester Airport, but that Victoria would be the "main" station for the Huddersfield line.

Similarly, the Chat Moss services could all go to Victoria, same with the Wigan ones. The only reason for not doing so is the benefit of getting to the Airport, but the Northern Hub plans for four/ hour from Victoria to the Airport (via Piccadilly).

Victoria has the free minibus into the (heart of the) city centre, it has the tram to much of the centre too, there's no reason not to use it more. At the moment its stuck in the "nobody wants to use it because nothing much goes from there because nothing much uses it" vicious circle. I mean, if you were in Manchester and wanted to go to Preston, would you go to Piccadilly (three trains per hour) or Victoria (one train per hour)? Most people would instinctively go to the bigger station where more trains leave from. Put services back into Victoria and see it grow.

Exactly thats what im getting at, i think some marketing will be needed too but thats easy enough.
Remeber doing it in geography a while back vicious circle of decline and thats the kinda thing going on.

I was also thinking is there any reason why hull piccadilly services couldnt terminate there either... better than going slowly through guide bridge and into piccadilly taking up paths.

is victoria at cpacity or is it relatively empty?

 

[ukrob]

Just a few corrections -

Manchester Airport - Southport (via Wigan). Usually a single 156 (?) so a four car 319 would be an increase

Not being electrified. Of course DMUs could be doubled up which have been displaced from services which have become 319s.

The other services in the North West are a no-brainer. Liverpool - Blackpool is usually a single 158 and Liverpool - Wigan (half hourly) is usually just two coaches (Pacer or Sprinter)

There are no Northern 158s around Liverpool. The Liverpool - Blackpool service is usually a 150 or 156.

I would be very surprised if Liverpool - Wigan didn't go to quarter hourly after electrification (possibly two 'fasts' extending to Preston and Blackpool).

 

[tbtc]

Not being electrified. Of course DMUs could be doubled up which have been displaced from services which have become 319s.

Correct. I shall slap myself

There are no Northern 158s around Liverpool. The Liverpool - Blackpool service is usually a 150 or 156.

I would be very surprised if Liverpool - Wigan didn't go to quarter hourly after electrification (possibly two 'fasts' extending to Preston and Blackpool).

Ah, okay, my mistake.

Since Liverpool has lost services to the Lake District/ Glasgow/ Edinburgh, a "turn up and go" fifteen minute service to Wigan North Western would be good enough to connect with WCML services
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Exactly thats what im getting at, i think some marketing will be needed too but thats easy enough.
Remeber doing it in geography a while back vicious circle of decline and thats the kinda thing going on.

I was also thinking is there any reason why hull piccadilly services couldnt terminate there either... better than going slowly through guide bridge and into piccadilly taking up paths.

is victoria at cpacity or is it relatively empty?

The idea was that all Leeds - Huddersfield - Manchester services would go to Victoria.

A few years ago the eastern end of Victoria had the frequent Bury services, and four trains an hour to Oldham competing for space (some of which used the bay platforms where the tram goes now, to be fair).

Now these will all be trams, there's a lot of spare capacity at the eastern end (just three/ hour from Rochdale and two/ hour from Staleybridge).

However, the four TPE services from Staleybridge to Picadilly have to crawl in alongside the Glossop services. Moving them to Victoria would give a faster more reliable service into Manchester City Centre (with two/ hour continuing to Picadilly/ Airport). Plus it'd mean sharing the same station as the Halifax/ Bradford services (which may make things simpler).

 

[northwichcat]

Also could the arriva trains wales service not terminate at victoria instead of on the through platforms at piccadilly... ?

The North West RUS suggested that but the Welsh Assembly, Cheshire County Council, NCRUA and Chester City Council all strongly opposed such plans. They would probably have been happy with additional services to Manchester Victoria but they certainly didn't want their existing services diverted to Victoria.

The plan now to operate a regular Airport-Llandudno service.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

However, the four TPE services from Stalybridge to Piccadilly have to crawl in alongside the Glossop services. Moving them to Victoria would give a faster more reliable service into Manchester City Centre (with two/ hour continuing to Picadilly/ Airport). Plus it'd mean sharing the same station as the Halifax/ Bradford services (which may make things simpler).

I agree about the crawling in to Piccadilly issue. However, I disagree that it'll make thing simpler. Many people change on to both Calder Vale and North TPE services from local services. Having Calder Vale using Victoria and North TPE using Piccadilly gives everyone easy access to West Yorkshire. (Huddersfield can easily be reached from Victoria as well using the stopper or by changing at Brighouse/Halifax and likewise Brighouse/Halifax can be reached from Piccadilly doing the reverse.) The change will see Victoria have 6 West Yorkshire services per hour and just two for Piccadilly, despite the latter being a much bigger station with many more passengers.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Hazel Grove - Preston. Can be anything, from one of the two 180s used each day to single/double Pacer/ Sprinter combinations.

Never seen a Pacer working Hazel Grove-Preston, although I'm sure they can appear to fill in when there's a unit swap. Although, some peak time Hazel Grove-Prestons extend to Buxton meaning Pacer use is forbidden on those diagrams. Single and double 150s are the norm but 156s do appear as well.

Manchester Airport - Liverpool (via Chat Moss) Usually a single 156 (?) so a four car 319 would be an increase

Single 156 is the usual traction from my experience on that line.

Manchester Airport - Southport (via Wigan). Usually a single 156 (?)

That used to be case pre-December 2008. Since then more 156s are required on Buxton/Blackpool/Preston services leaving more 142s and 150s for Southports.

Manchester Airport - Blackpool (via Preston). Usually a single 185, so a four car 319 would be an increase

Unless you count the portion working diagrams then yes 3 car 185 is usual. However, that brings up some interesting points:
1. 319s have never been mentioned officially as going on to TPE services.
2. 350/1s are supposed to take over the Scotland route.
3. The recent draft Northern RUS suggested that Blackpool/Scotland portion working will continue after electrification.
4. As already discussed 8 cars are too long for some platforms so it would need to be 6 cars for stations like Salford Crescent and Chorley OR use units that have SDO, which the 350s have, so would portion workings need to be 2x350s?

 

[cle]

8 car journeys would never be needed with increased frequencies. The demand simply isn't there.

 

[northwichcat]

8 car journeys would never be needed with increased frequencies. The demand simply isn't there.

How do you propose scrapping the peak time portion workings, which are there mainly due to a lack of paths and high demand and replacing them with more frequent services? Everyone keeps saying more services will run but if they've ever seen Ardwick-Castlefield in the peak periods then it's clear that all that can be done is to introduce an off-peak frequency that's the same frequency as the one that already exists at peak times.

 

[Invincibles]

What is wrong with starting more services from Platform 3 at Manchester Oxford Road and then removing the stop from other services, so allowing more people to board an empty train at Manchester Oxford Road and in turn reducing the number of services having to pass through Piccadilly.

Admittedly there are still issues of paths from Oxford Road to Castlefield but if you put the Oxford Road starter in an existing through path then it is not a problem. 4 empty carriages from Oxford Road would be a big improvement on the number of seats currently vacant on the 6 car 185. From Piccadilly north an 8 car could be used to call at Bolton and Preston.

So with the existing timetable (essentially) you have more capacity, no problem with limited length stops (the fast is first stop Bolton after Oxford Road) and you get more chance to get a seat at all of the Manchester stations.

The only real penalty seems to be that the Oxford Road starter would be behind the current fast, but that can be worked round in the recast of the timetable (maybe making the Victoria stopper start at Oxford Road and vice versa)

 

[hairyhandedfool]

My understanding of the Scotland runs goes back to before the Bolton electrification was announced, as being run via Eccles and hitting the WCML south of Wigan. I thought this was the sole reason for Chat Moss being electrified in two stages, Manchester to Newton followed by Earlestown to Edge Hill.

 

[cle]

How do you propose scrapping the peak time portion workings, which are there mainly due to a lack of paths and high demand and replacing them with more frequent services? Everyone keeps saying more services will run but if they've ever seen Ardwick-Castlefield in the peak periods then it's clear that all that can be done is to introduce an off-peak frequency that's the same frequency as the one that already exists at peak times.

The timetable is going to completely change, and Victoria will be handed the faster Liverpool (319) services I believe - and so this will happen through frequency.

I think the focus is to switch moreso to Victoria, and the services run will be quite different from today.

Oxford Road terminating is also a good shout for capacity - works well for locals but could also apply for slower Eccles etc... services.

 

[northwichcat]

12 car 319s are restricted to 75mph on OLE

That could be an issue for Northern as well then. Northern quite often send two or three units joined up for start of the day and end of the day ECS runs as positioning moves. Also it's not uncommon for Northern to join one or two out-of-use units on to an in-service unit in lieu of an ECS run.

 

[ukrob]

How do you propose scrapping the peak time portion workings, which are there mainly due to a lack of paths and high demand and replacing them with more frequent services? Everyone keeps saying more services will run but if they've ever seen Ardwick-Castlefield in the peak periods then it's clear that all that can be done is to introduce an off-peak frequency that's the same frequency as the one that already exists at peak times.

Again, we have no idea whatsoever what timetables will look like in a few years when these changes come about, so the negative attitude is achieving nothing.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That could be an issue for Northern as well then. Northern quite often send two or three units joined up for start of the day and end of the day ECS runs as positioning moves. Also it's not uncommon for Northern to join one or two out-of-use units on to an in-service unit in lieu of an ECS run.

What is your problem with the project?

You are trying to pick holes in it. Why?

Just come clean. I don't think I have ever seen such a negative attitude about great news before.

 

[northwichcat]

My understanding of the Scotland runs goes back to before the Bolton electrification was announced, as being run via Eccles and hitting the WCML south of Wigan. I thought this was the sole reason for Chat Moss being electrified in two stages, Manchester to Newton followed by Earlestown to Edge Hill.

Had Manchester to Scotland via Wigan gone ahead I would have expected TPE to have restarted the 2 hourly Manchester Airport to Bolton to Windermere runs which were mostly cut back to shuttle runs after the Scottish services were transferred from Virgin.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What is your problem with the project?

You are trying to pick holes in it. Why?

Just come clean.

I'm pointing out things or asking questions that the people planning the electrification should already have be asking and have answers to and you obviously have a problem with that as you see this picture perfect electrification that I don't see.

Why is it when I say there are disadvantages to 319s coming to the North West you say to stop complaining but when people say there are disadvantages to 319s remaining on Thameslink you say fair enough?

 

[ukrob]

I'm pointing out things or asking questions that the people planning the electrification should already have be asking and have answers to and you obviously have a problem with that as you see this picture perfect electrification that I don't see.

No, from the very first post in this thread you have had a pretty negative attitude, starting with the 319s, and now moving on to the whole project - other people have picked up on it too.

Saying that ECS moves would be restricted to 75mph (which is incorrect in many cases to start with) is really stretching 'asking questions that planners should have asked".

You have also based assumptions on timetables that don't exist, and words from an MP that contradicted official documentation.

Why is it when I say there are disadvantages to 319s coming to the North West you say to stop complaining but when people say there are disadvantages to 319s remaining on Thameslink you say fair enough?

Do I? Where?

 

[northwichcat]

The timetable is going to completely change, and Victoria will be handed the faster Liverpool (319) services I believe - and so this will happen through frequency.

I hadn't heard that. I thought the plan was to divert and extend the current Liverpool-Warrington Bank Quay service to Manchester Victoria to give a half hourly frequency and to keep a fast Manchester Airport-Liverpool via Newton-le-Willows service.

Oxford Road terminating is also a good shout for capacity - works well for locals but could also apply for slower Eccles etc... services.

I'd be interested in the opinion of people who regularly use the Liverpool-Oxford Rds on that. When I've used them a lot of people (including myself) have alighted at Oxford Rd and the then picked up either the busy TPE or EMT service for just one stop to Piccadilly.

 

[ukrob]

I hadn't heard that. I thought the plan was to divert and extend the current Liverpool-Warrington Bank Quay service to Manchester Victoria to give a half hourly frequency and to keep a fast Manchester Airport-Liverpool via Newton-le-Willows service

It is the plan - and not one based on electrification either, it would be more immediate than that. Possibly for Northerns timetable recast in May.