Great British Railways - Competition for new location of GBR Headquarters

[Dr Hoo]

We already know (from Christian Wolmar) that the DfT has just over 1,000 'railways' staff. We also know that much of the DfT was already going to be moved to Birmingham anyway. Without getting too hung up on how many people stay with the DfT (in a genuinely overarching role) and how many move to GBR (to 'monitor' the 'concessions' from within, etc.) there will also be NR 'HQ' (not MK) people from London, RDG people (also from London) rolled into GBR and - dare one say it - genuinely 'new' people to undertake the 'integration' and 'visionary' roles that have arguably been lacking since privatisation.

If the GBR HQ does go to Birmingham (as well as DfT) it seems that there could easily be around 2,000 people 'running the railways' from there in future.

Or am I misunderstanding something?

 

[6Gman]

Absolutely amazed Crewe is Tory given how run down it is. Is it because the constituency includes somewhere posh like Nantwich?

The constituency is named Crewe & Nantwich.

Unsurprisingly it includes Nantwich.

Also Haslington, Wistaston, Willaston, Shavington, Weston etc etc

And Crewe itself voted Brexit so the 2019 Johnson message of 'Get Brexit Done' played well there.

And it was previously Conservative between 2008 and 2017.

 

[Bald Rick]

Come on, Rick! You missed that fact that Regional Railways HQ was in 'Meridian' on Smallbrook Queensway during the final flowering of the sectors.

fair point! I should have remembered, went there enough!

Where does this leave the National Centre at Milton Keynes? It only opened 10 years ago.

in MK.

 

[Trestrol]

A very predictable list. Glad they have weeded out some of the stupid applications. When they said it had to be out of London why some places very close thought they were in with a chance baffles me. I voted for Newcastle but think it will be York. Won't be Crewe, a) it's a dump, b) anybody going for a night out goes to Nantwich, they wouldn't be seen dead going out in Crewe. And I was told that by former colleagues who worked in Crewe!

 

[zwk500]

A very predictable list. Glad they have weeded out some of the stupid applications. When they said it had to be out of London why some places very close thought they were in with a chance baffles me. I voted for Newcastle but think it will be York. Won't be Crewe, a) it's a dump, b) anybody going for a night out goes to Nantwich, they wouldn't be seen dead going out in Crewe. And I was told that by former colleagues who worked in Crewe!

The choice of location will not be decided on where's best for a piss-up. It being a dump is actually in Crewe's favour, given the governments desire to be seen to be investing in depressed towns.

 

[MalaiseForever]

The vote is purely consultative, it has been made quite clear it will have very little bearing on the final decision.

Certainly not the case. Working with the team running the process, the Secretary of State has made it clear the public vote will have a significant impact on his decision.

 

[EbbwJunction1]

The same applies to Wales, where the Tories have not won an election for over 100 years, since the Labour party was formed. Seeing as ScotRail and TfW will both have their own HQ's in Scotland & Wales, it was never going to be located anywhere other than in England regardless. But Swansea/Cardiff and Glasgow/Edinburgh could have been included in the shortlist to keep up the pretence that "Great British Railways" is actually a British operation, not an English one.

I'm not bothered where it goes, and won't be voting.

As far as a location in Wales is concerned, there weren't any applications from anywhere in Wales, so they can't be put onto the short list. I'm surprised that Machynlleth didn't apply though ... they apply for just about everything else!

 

[CDM]

At the moment, no change is proposed to Quadrant:MK, on the grounds that as it's not the HQ now, moving the HQ makes no difference!

That ^^^^
HQ being somewhere doesn't necessarily mean it's the main back-office administrative hub, which can be anywhere.
(In the same ways that there will still undoubtedly be regional HQ's, wherever the main HQ is notionally placed)

Whole thing is a total PR stunt and inefficient farce in this day and age though, IMO.

Would be far better having regional offices, supported by remote working and no central HQ.
When there's a need to get head honcho's together, they utilise the regional HQ's on rotation.
*That's* the way to ensure they actually do get out and about and familiar with 'whole country, not London' (if people even genuinely think that's a problem) rather than a white elephant plonked in some other location (which just moves 'london focussed' to one other location instead!).

This government need to get out of the bloody dark ages and stop being focused on old fashioned working practices and PR stunts.
But they're doing what they're doing and not going to change their ways now...

 

[DarloRich]

Where does this leave the National Centre at Milton Keynes? It only opened 10 years ago.

exactly where it is now.

This "HQ" is just a PR puff piece. The head shed will be in the HQ ( and not often if it is somewhere grotty) and not much else.

 

[ExRes]

That ^^^^
HQ being somewhere doesn't necessarily mean it's the main back-office administrative hub, which can be anywhere.
(In the same ways that there will still undoubtedly be regional HQ's, wherever the main HQ is notionally placed)

Whole thing is a total PR stunt and inefficient farce in this day and age though, IMO.

Would be far better having regional offices, supported by remote working and no central HQ.
When there's a need to get head honcho's together, they utilise the regional HQ's on rotation.
*That's* the way to ensure they actually do get out and about and familiar with 'whole country, not London' (if people even genuinely think that's a problem) rather than a white elephant plonked in some other location (which just moves 'london focussed' to one other location instead!).

This government need to get out of the bloody dark ages and stop being focused on old fashioned working practices and PR stunts.
But they're doing what they're doing and not going to change their ways now...

Interesting that you say that it "would be far better having regional offices .." and that ".. need to get out of the dark ages and stop being focused on old fashioned working practices", when I worked for the Post Office in the 70s and 80s regional offices were full of people telling local offices what to do after being told themselves by HQ, bottom line is that there are no new answers, they've all been done before

ps I forgot to say by both Labour and Tory governments, this lot are no different to any previous governments of any political colour or leaning

 

[quantinghome]

Seems we've had a decades long hokey-cokey of centralising from and devolving to the regions. Is there no way of working out which is best and going with it, or are there pros and cons to both such that there is no logical answer?

 

[SynthD]

Seems we've had a decades long hokey-cokey of centralising from and devolving to the regions. Is there no way of working out which is best and going with it, or are there pros and cons to both such that there is no logical answer?

With certain parts of the civil service it's a balance between being near the ministers they need to talk to, and being seen to share out high level positions across the country. I've seen a chart of the government by NUTS region and grade, but can't find it. It shows that other than London's bias towards higher grades, the job count is well distributed. All ideologies can be accused of going with the false impression of unfairness rather than showing the facts.

 

[zwk500]

Seems we've had a decades long hokey-cokey of centralising from and devolving to the regions. Is there no way of working out which is best and going with it, or are there pros and cons to both such that there is no logical answer?

There are pros and cons, and circumstances change over the years, such that there is no one correct answer. Otherwise we'd have found it in the nearly 200 years the railways have been running.

 

[Route115?]

An HQ generally has a involves a lot of meetings with staff coming from outstations. I have seen far too many pieces arguing which mode (often air v rail but it can also be rail v car) is quicker. Ofyen they are not helpful, but what it really comes down to is whether the origin & destination are near the station, airport etc. Essentially journeys to/from London is overwhelmingly by rail, elsewhere car tends to predominate. If you want to encourage modal shift to rail make sure the HQ is in London. Well it looks like that isn't going to happen.

Of course we could develop a genuinely national network rather than concentrate on HS2 which would make a far wider range of destinations attractive for rail travel, but thats another issue...

 

[BrianW]

An HQ generally has a involves a lot of meetings with staff coming from outstations. I have seen far too many pieces arguing which mode (often air v rail but it can also be rail v car) is quicker. Ofyen they are not helpful, but what it really comes down to is whether the origin & destination are near the station, airport etc. Essentially journeys to/from London is overwhelmingly by rail, elsewhere car tends to predominate. If you want to encourage modal shift to rail make sure the HQ is in London. Well it looks like that isn't going to happen.

Of course we could develop a genuinely national network rather than concentrate on HS2 which would make a far wider range of destinations attractive for rail travel, but thats another issue...

Well observed Route 115. Far too logical though.

'And the votes of the Great British public are in. The numbers of first preference votes cast for each of the six selected candidates are as follows:
Birmingham 19%; Crewe 18%; Derby 17%; Doncaster 16%; Newcastle 15%; York 14%; spoilt papers 1%.
I therefore declare that the winner is ...??? whatever I felt like in the first place; all the rest, like me and you are losers. No ifs, no buts ...

 

[John Luxton]

What about Swindon? I saw something a while back that suggested that they were touting for the honour of hosting GBR.

The old LMS / LNE bias which developed in 1948 continues!

 

[Andrew1395]

I voted for Doncaster, and I have a sneaky feeling (if he is still SoS Schapps will make it so). It is the perfect location, lots of decent well priced housing in the villages for the middle ranking managers, plenty of local clerical workers in the town. Very commutable for the Executives, with a decent car park at Stevenage. Plus the soon to be city has plenty of space for 200 desk office.

 

[coppercapped]

I'm writing carefully here as I haven't been following the details of the debate about what GBR is supposed to be doing but going back some months I recall reading that the headquarters essentially was intended to manage those activities to do with franchising that are currently being done by the railways group in the DfT.

The GBR HQ is not going to be anything to do with train operation as these functions will remain with Network Rail and the franchisees/concessionaires at their existing sites. So no change there.

If I have understood the story so far correctly what is being moved out of the DfT are those functions to do with franchising that were done by the Strategic Rail Authority at the time that it was wound up and subsumed into the DfT. And of course these functions were those performed earlier by the Office of Passenger Rail Franchising (OPRAF) before the SRA arrived on the scene.

The other functions which would appear to be part of the HQ's business is longer term planning to ensure that any proposed train service changes are compatible with the available infrastructure. This is where the DfT royally screwed up by getting franchisees to sign up to promised infrastructure improvements as described in their contracts but forgot to fund NR to install the desired improvements. This happened at least once on the East Coast as well as the promised service through the Castlefield corridor in Manchester.

There also seems to an attempt to improve longer term (strategic?) planning over that emanating from the DfT.

How many people this will need I can't tell, but OPRAF ran a very tight ship and strategic planning doesn't need many people - if fact the fewer the better. And as I keep saying the BTC/BRB ran all of British Railways - track, trains, workshops, hotels, ships and some harbours from a hotel in the Marylebone Road. Sometimes quite successfully...!

If it was me I would make the maximum headcount for the new HQ at 250 people.

A smallish office building - what's the fuss all about?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

GBR will be more than ex-DfT/SRA/Opraf types.
It will absorb some of the "NR" and RDG (ATOC) HQ functions, the rest of which, like the TOCs, will be regionalised.
Also it will have ticketing policy and the retail offer (web site), presently the preserve of the TOCs or ex-ATOC.
At least that seems to be how it's shaping up.

The BRB for most of its life had the big bad ex-Big 4 Regions to do the heavy lifting for them.
Sectorisation made its mark in the 80s but they had only just aligned the regions to the sectors when privatisation blew it all away.

 

[tomuk]

Network Rail will become GBR. GBR is not separate to Network Rail.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Network Rail will become GBR. GBR is not separate to Network Rail.

But there is this edict (Williams-Shapps section 5):

Great British Railways will be a new organisation, not just a larger version of Network Rail.

And section 10:

Great British Railways will be made up of powerful regional divisions,
with budgets and delivery held at the local level, not just nationally.

 

[thomalex]

But there is this edict (Williams-Shapps section 5):


And section 10:

While it will be a new organisation I believe it will absorb Network Rail

 

[InTheEastMids]

I will preface this as speculation, but certainly by somebody who's more likely to be well-informed than... well, me for a start.

On Gareth Dennis' weekly live YouTube chat he said, "There is a little hint that they may still announce it, and if they do, the only reason they'll do it is because Doncaster and possibly Derby are planning to sue Government for wasted money on the fact that there is now no longer a GBR HQ announcement to be made. So, if they do announce it, it'll just be to try and avoid being sued."

It's about 7 minutes into this linked video on YouTube

 

[WAB]

The Guardian is reporting that Derby is expected to be named the new headquarters of Britain’s rail network by ministers this week.

Derby expected to be named new HQ of Britain’s rail network
Exclusive: Midlands city is frontrunner to become official home of Great British Railways

Gwyn Topham Transport correspondent @GwynTopham Mon 20 Mar 2023 12.18 GMT

Derby is expected to be named the new headquarters of Britain’s rail network by ministers this week, the Guardian understands. The delayed result of the competition to become the official home of Great British Railways is expected as early as Tuesday, with the Midlands city the frontrunner on a shortlist of six including Birmingham, Crewe, Doncaster, Newcastle and York.

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...q-britain-rail-network-great-british-railways

 

[Intercity110]

The Guardian is reporting that Derby is expected to be named the new headquarters of Britain’s rail network by ministers this week.d

does it say if they will be headquartered in the RTC?

 

[WAB]

does it say if they wilbe headquartered in the RTC?

That was the proposal, although I imagine it might need rebuilding. A couple of alternative options across the city were identified in the expression of interest.

 

[DarloRich]

i had a fiver on Derby. sweet!

 

[43055]

does it say if they will be headquartered in the RTC?

Could be a possibility but I recon Midland House is also in with a shout going by this article in the Derby Telegraph last month. See the paragraph in bold.

Big plans unveiled to transform area around Derby railway station

As a starting point, Midland House is soon to be sold to a property and regeneration company

www.derbytelegraph.co.uk

Large-scale plans to transform area around Derby railway station unveiled​

As a starting point, Midland House is soon to be sold to a property and regeneration company

The area around Derby's train station could be set for major regeneration (Image: Derby Telegraph)

Huge plans are under way to start major regeneration in and around Derby’s railway station, designed to vastly improve an “underwhelming” gateway to the city. The plans could see significant transformations being made to the city’s Railway Conservation Area, including new office space, public areas and housing, as well as the chance to bring back into use a historic building.
Leaders of Derby City Council have approved providing a £500,000 loan to support the acquisition of Midland House, situated close to Derby Midland Station. This includes the surrounding car park which could be developed. The sale of the building, with its cost not yet made public, is seen as the starting block of the major regeneration project which aims to transform the area.


Property and regeneration firm London and Continental Railways (LCR), owned by the Department For Transport, wants to purchase the building as part of a new masterplan for the area. This comes after its current owners – the Department for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities (DLUHC) - have declared the building “surplus to requirements”.

Midland House is one of the city’s most historic buildings. Built in the 19th Century it used to be head offices of the Midland Railway. More recently, many people will know the venue for hosting the latter parts of the Covid vaccination programme during the pandemic.
Full details of the sale and future intentions of the building are yet to be revealed. But according to LCR's website, the firm "transform underused public sector real estate assets, particularly around railway stations and key transport hubs, into exciting new destinations for people to live, work and experience." It is hoped the sale of Midland House can be completed in the coming weeks with the council lending LCR the £500,000 to support its investment.


The company has invested millions of pounds into refurbishing properties nearby railway stations at places such as Manchester and London. It has led the way in transforming the former Eurostar terminal at Waterloo Station into a three level social destination with restaurants, bars, shops, co-working space and a performance venue. It has also led the way in delivering a new Business Park at the former Rail Technical Centre (RTC) in London Road, Derby.

Midland House near Derby's train station is to be sold to a property and regeneration firm (Image: Derby Telegraph)
Andrew Ferguson, partnerships and property director at LCR, said: “Derby’s rail station is a crucial gateway to the city and we’re collaborating closely with the city council to deliver enhancements to the area. Plans to regenerate land around the station have residents’ and visitors’ experience at their heart. As a placemaking specialist LCR is committed, like the council, to utilising the area’s disused assets to create exciting spaces for people to live, work and play.

“The acquisition of Midland House will play a key role in connecting other sites primed for regeneration. Together, they will form an area that will boost public value for Derby’s residents and businesses.”
A council report about the potential sale says the train station area is in real need of change. It says: “The west side of Derby rail station (city centre side) is in need of significant regeneration, presenting an underwhelming gateway into the city and a lack of a clearly defined route into the heart of the city centre. But this area does include some unique rail heritage buildings – including Midland House, Midland Hotel and the remaining Railway Cottages - which offer a fascinating environment around which redevelopment could take place.
“Regeneration of this area would contribute significantly to both the wider city centre ambition and the need for a more attractive and effective gateway experience into the city centre from the station.”
There is now fresh interest around the regeneration and future potential of the Derby train station area. This is because HS2 trains will pass Derby on their journeys, effectively putting Derby on the map.
Derby City Council leader Chris Poulter hailed the news as a “fantastic development”. He said during a recent cabinet meeting: “This is another example of how we can support regeneration development in the city. It could tie in with improvements through HS2 and around the stations. And come Easter we might know where we are with Great British Railways which can also tie in quite nicely.”
The plans were also approved by Labour councillor Alison Martin at a recent executive scrutiny meeting: She said: “I very much welcome this initiative. Midland House is a wonderful building in a very historic and significant part of the city which more than merits regeneration. It could become a real gem in the city."
All this comes at a time when Derby is in contention to be the new home of the Great British Railways headquarters. Following a high-profile campaign last year, an announcement on the chosen venue is expected in the coming months.
The council also has its own plans to make big changes to the area. The LDRS reported last year that the authority is looking at sprucing up the conservation area by resurfacing pavements and to improve the junction between Railway Terrace and Siddals Road.
Marketing Derby, a company who aim to bring investment opportunities to Derby, says the plans are hugely welcome news.
John Forkin, managing director of Marketing Derby, said: "We strongly support the improvement of the railway station area. This is an important gateway into the city and we all recognise the need for its regeneration to bring it up to the level of some of the city centre schemes currently underway."
The emerging regeneration masterplan for the station area will be the subject to public consultation, as will any subsequent planning applications associated with Midland House and/or the wider area.

 

[Western Sunset]

Hoped it might be. Though having been born and brought up there, I might've been biased...

 

[grumpyoldman01]

That was the proposal, although I imagine it might need rebuilding. A couple of alternative options across the city were identified in the expression of interest.

Don't forget that both Derwent and Trent Houses were built as BR HQ offices and opened in 1967; Derwent had the Supplies on the ground floor, BR Workshops (as it then was) on the first, together with a massive typing pool (remember them?) facing the front, and some accounts/auditors/etc on the top floor, and Trent was more or less exclusively the M&EE Dept. They have been refurbished over time, and the original design was conceived so that they could comprise either individual offices or open plan ones. Both are built around glass quadrangles, and so have lots of natural light

The transfer of Midland House to the DfT's subsidiary has been mentioned elsewhere; I think this is a listed building, but it has had a major refurbish and has been used for many purposes - including a school and a vaccination centre - since Midland Mainline and the NRES telephone call centre moved out (the latter went to Trent House in the late 1990s)