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Great Northern and Thameslink May 18 service changes

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Wronskian

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I've just been having a play with the official National Rail Enquiries planner. I'm slightly surprised that when you ask for journeys from Cambridge to London (Any), the Thameslink (St Pancras) services aren't shown. (Tested a few dates next week and in June.) As far as I can see, the southbound services aren't overtaken (e.g. 1454 leaves Cambridge to arrive St Pancras 1559, the fast departure is then Cambridge 1514 arriving Kings Cross 1604 - yes, much faster, but not overtaken).

One thing I'm interested to watch evolve is how many Kings Cross -> Cambridge passengers find St Pancras -> Cambridge more useful - clearly those coming from Thameslink stations anyway.
 
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sefton

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Why would anyone get the 0717 or 0740 departures when the 0720, 0747 and 0751 arrive quicker, unless there's disruption?

The 0717 and 0740 are likely to be wedged with people travelling to intermediate stations which is not an insignificant number of people. There is no increase in services from Stevenage to places like Welwyn Garden City, Hatfield, Potters Bar etc. - they are busy now and it won't help anyone if these trains are used by people travelling from Stevenage to London.

Because the 7.27, 7.47, and 7.51 are even busier because people are not using the overtaken trains.
 

4-SUB 4732

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Not sure if already posted, but the service to Rainham is cut back to hourly during parts of the day between peaks and also in the evenings from the new timetable for a few weeks with buses to Higham from Strood so passengers can use High Speed if needed. Southeastern did not accept the request to supplement capacity with extra trains etc. as the DfT had asked and, to be blunt, roundly sh*t on SE.

The Catford Loop also has gaps due to a lack of drivers.

Sounds like the first few weeks will be a nightmare - especially as the printed timetable shows a full service.
 

MML

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Not wishing to be picky (alright, it’s very picky) but there are only 2 Thameslink trains that are the 1720 to Bedford:

1) the 1630 off Sevenoaks is 1720d Peckham Rye (and is booked 8 cars)
2) the 1535 off Brighton is 1720d St Albans City, is booked 12 cars, and was tonight: I was on it!

Assuming you mean the 1722 off Blackfriars (booked 12 car) - it’s not so very long ago that was a 4 car...
It was indeed the 1722 off Blackfriars (the Brighton to Bedford service).
I used 1720 to tie in with the 2020 theme, given that the timetable change is in 2018, but it seems trendy to refer to everything as 20.
I can only imagine the crush on the 4-car unit. o_O
 

MML

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It would be an excellent idea if the timetable could incorporate train length and loading information. I'm sure I've seen such information published before for GN services.
 

gingerheid

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Pathetic. Locals and tourists will be desolate. Coach operators must be rubbing their wallets in glee.

The coach service has been in a long term death spiral, and I can't see anything about this timetable changing that.
 

Ianno87

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No it hasn't?

Two non-stop per hour, moved forwards a couple of minutes to depart Kings Cross at xx12 (to Ely) and xx42 (to Lynn, with an extra stop at Cambridge North).

Yes, the semifast is now overtaken and is irrelevant.

There is one gap - for whatever reason there isn't a 1612 ex-King's Cross.

Edit: It does appear to be shown on OpenTrainTimes but is omitted from the printed pocket timetable I picked up...
 
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Ianno87

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I've just been having a play with the official National Rail Enquiries planner. I'm slightly surprised that when you ask for journeys from Cambridge to London (Any), the Thameslink (St Pancras) services aren't shown. (Tested a few dates next week and in June.) As far as I can see, the southbound services aren't overtaken (e.g. 1454 leaves Cambridge to arrive St Pancras 1559, the fast departure is then Cambridge 1514 arriving Kings Cross 1604 - yes, much faster, but not overtaken).

One thing I'm interested to watch evolve is how many Kings Cross -> Cambridge passengers find St Pancras -> Cambridge more useful - clearly those coming from Thameslink stations anyway.

I think if I happened to be approaching Kings Cross from the Euston direction (as I often do, crossing St Pancras) and the Thameslink happened to be due, I'd probably choose the Thameslink. Otherwise, fast from King's Cross would be the preference - for which turnrounds now seem to be more regularly in excess of 30 minutes, so hopefully an end to the last minute platforming rush/stampedes.
 

Hadders

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Because the 7.27, 7.47, and 7.51 are even busier because people are not using the overtaken trains.

My experience is that getting a seat on the 12-car fasts at Stevenage was always possible when they were 365 operated, so no need to use the slower services that get overtaken. Since the 700 takeover getting a seat at Stevenage is practically impossible. I fear for next week with fewer trains and large gaps in service.

The overtaken services in the peak are as busy, if not busier than the fasts. Certainly go guarantee of a seat from Stevenage.
 

Failed Unit

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Because the 7.27, 7.47, and 7.51 are even busier because people are not using the overtaken trains.

Good. It is hard enough to physically board the 0755 (ex 740 Stevenage) at WGC since the 317s left. The less passengers from further up the line that can use alternative services on it, the more chance we have of actually physically boarding it. (I know very selfish)
 

bramling

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My experience is that getting a seat on the 12-car fasts at Stevenage was always possible when they were 365 operated, so no need to use the slower services that get overtaken. Since the 700 takeover getting a seat at Stevenage is practically impossible. I fear for next week with fewer trains and large gaps in service.

The overtaken services in the peak are as busy, if not busier than the fasts. Certainly go guarantee of a seat from Stevenage.

A lot more people have been boarding the slower services at Hitchin since the 387s, and especially the 700s arrived on the faster services. It’s quite understandable - when 317s 321s and 365s operated all services there were generally seats available - especially towards the rear of the train. Since they went these available seats have largely evaporated. Hence more people choosing the slower services. I bet same applies at Stevenage too.

We’ll see what happens next week - it’s hard to predict what will happen as there are too many unknowns. No doubt it will take a few weeks for the dust to settle.
 

paul332

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No it hasn't?

Two non-stop per hour, moved forwards a couple of minutes to depart Kings Cross at xx12 (to Ely) and xx42 (to Lynn, with an extra stop at Cambridge North).

Yes, the semifast is now overtaken and is irrelevant.


Aha. I was taking my cue from the just-issued Table 25 of the May 2018 National Rail Timetable. This doesn't show any xx.12s from KX to Ely, or the corresponding returns, Mon-Sat! However I see now that RTT and the planner do show those. What a farce is the NRT timetable. Anyhow, pleased to see I was mistaken (apparently), and Cambridge still has its half-hourly non-stop service (it seems). Although not according to National Rail.
 

wipeout

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Surprised how unhappy Stevenage is as well. They can get to the core and have non-stop services to kings cross.

Hadley Wood, Oakleigh Park and New Southgate are seriously unimpressed they are losing out on the consultation timetable to Hornsey and Harringey. I assume they will get their trains to Moorgate back next year when the extra services to Moorgate are alledged to appear.

Hadley Wood isn't really losing out in the new timetable, it's currently 4 tph in the morning peak and will remain 4 tph (although it'll be 2 Kings Cross + 2 Moorgate compared to 4 Moorgate today). Oakleigh Park and New Southgate are definitely losing out.

This timetable has wholesale changes to both the current TL and the current GN, it's amazing how much of this thread relates to the Great Northern side!!

Which stations on the GN route (inner or outer, other than Welwyn North) are getting extra trains compared to today? (They must be somewhere given all the benefits that this timetable will bring according to railplan2020.com)
 

Skimble19

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Edit: It does appear to be shown on OpenTrainTimes but is omitted from the printed pocket timetable I picked up...
Please be aware there are some errors in the printed timetables. These are being sorted and timetables will be reprinted as soon as they're certain they're correct.

In the mean time I would recommend using the online sites as you are already doing.
 

Bishopstone

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Urgent update.

GTR now conceding, via Twitter, that their staff member they have been calling Canadian for the last fortnight, is indeed American as Skimble19 established for us, a few days ago.

More news, when I have it, on GTR’s opinion of Obama’s birth nation and religion.
 

Skimble19

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Urgent update.

GTR now conceding, via Twitter, that their staff member they have been calling Canadian for the last fortnight, is indeed American as Skimble19 established for us, a few days ago.

More news, when I have it, on GTR’s opinion of Obama’s birth nation and religion.
Always happy to help with the truth where I can / I'm allowed! :lol::lol::lol:

As for Obama's birth nation and religion, hopefully the Twitter Team will just avoid that one <D
 

Hadders

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Sounds about the right level of accuracy for GTR...
 

benk1342

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I heard the announcement for the first time yesterday. To an American ear it is very clear that he is American (and likely southern) rather than Canadian!
 

gingerheid

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How many mistakes in that new table 25???!!!

I've never seen such a disgraceful joke of a timetable in my life!!!
 

MikeWM

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Here's a case that I haven't seen mentioned on here before: price increases due to journeys that are currently off-peak becoming peak in the new timetable, crucially coupled with the case that regularly buying off-peak day returns for that particular journey is cheaper than buying a season ticket.

This affects the 08:58 from Ely to Cambridge......

Local petition: https://www.change.org/p/great-nort...om-ely-to-cambridge-or-make-the-8-45-off-peak

Detailed analysis: https://grumpytrainuser.wordpress.c...dge-part-2-peak-off-peak-and-full-size-bikes/

The couple of times I've had the misfortune to need to catch the 8.58 it has been incredibly busy. I've avoided signing that petition because, while I probably agree with the off-peak part, it also mentions bicycles. And - probably a controversial opinion - no way should full-size bicycles be allowed on this extremely busy train, where there is only barely enough room for actual passengers.

Is Y4 likely to be updated on May 20th, completely ignoring people who might have made alternative arrangements (possibly inluding buying a season ticket!) based on what journey planners are currently telling them will be peak/off-peak?

I've heard a rumour (can't remember where) that this is what is going to happen. I've also seen it implied somewhere that it isn't. But GTR seem to be avoiding answering the issue when directly asked, which is predictably useless of them.
 

MikeWM

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How many mistakes in that new table 25???!!!

Table 17 is better for services from Cambridge and north thereof (to Kings Cross). At a quick glance it appears rather more accurate. It also has the complete service between Cambridge and Ely, including XC and GA. Not sure why they've added stations north of Cambridge/Cambridge North to Table 25 at all.
 

Ianno87

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Which stations on the GN route (inner or outer, other than Welwyn North) are getting extra trains compared to today? (They must be somewhere given all the benefits that this timetable will bring according to railplan2020.com)

Off top of my head:
-Cambridge gets 1tph extra all-day (1 x stopper peak, 1 x semi-fast off-peak)
-Baldock gets 1tph extra off-peak (1 x stopper) and 1tph extra peak (1 x stopper)
 

greatkingrat

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Acording to the Internal NRE Knowledgebase, the CDR Ely - Cambridge is changing to restriction code B3 (valid after 0900) in NFM30. The CDRs from stations between Kings Lynn and Littleport are remaining on code Y4.
 

NorthKent1989

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Not sure if already posted, but the service to Rainham is cut back to hourly during parts of the day between peaks and also in the evenings from the new timetable for a few weeks with buses to Higham from Strood so passengers can use High Speed if needed. Southeastern did not accept the request to supplement capacity with extra trains etc. as the DfT had asked and, to be blunt, roundly sh*t on SE.

The Catford Loop also has gaps due to a lack of drivers.

Sounds like the first few weeks will be a nightmare - especially as the printed timetable shows a full service.

Not good for Higham, but the Medway route will be okay
 

arb

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The couple of times I've had the misfortune to need to catch the 8.58 it has been incredibly busy. I've avoided signing that petition because, while I probably agree with the off-peak part, it also mentions bicycles. And - probably a controversial opinion - no way should full-size bicycles be allowed on this extremely busy train, where there is only barely enough room for actual passengers.

If you'd asked me in isolation, I'd have agreed with you about the bikes. And I'd even have gone as far as saying that the 08:58 is so busy (as are the previous trains) that it should be made peak, not off-peak. But in this instance, given that:
  • The consultation timetables said that it would remain off-peak, so anybody now affected by the last-minute off-peak to peak change has had no chance to comment.
  • The consultation timetables said that it would depart Ely at 08:46 (allowing bikes), not 08:45 (not allowing bikes), so anybody now affected by the last-minute change to ban bikes has had no chance to comment.
  • The timing of the train only bans bikes from Ely, and not from Waterbeach or Cambridge North (where it will be even busier than it is at Ely), which is grossly unfair to cyclists from Ely.
...then I have to agree with the petition.

Acording to the Internal NRE Knowledgebase, the CDR Ely - Cambridge is changing to restriction code B3 (valid after 0900) in NFM30. The CDRs from stations between Kings Lynn and Littleport are remaining on code Y4.

Nice. So changing the restriction code, making it look like they've done something, but not actually affecting the issue people are complaining about :).

I've always wondered about the overcrowding on all trains from Ely to Cambridge between the current 08:26 and 08:58 (inclusive), particularly as the route is very well served until 08:58, and then there's a half-hour gap in the timetable. Is there no scope for slotting an extra shuttle running from Ely to Cambridge only sometime between (the current) 08:58 and 09:28 (or the 08:45 and 09:17 in the new timetable)? They could have even moved the current 08:58 to 08:45 and made it peak (giving more peak capacity), and added in an extra off-peak shuttle sometime just after 09:00 (keeping the off-peak commuters happy).

I particularly worry about what will happen to Greater Anglia's peak 08:38 from Ely to Cambridge in the new timetable. Given that it allows bikes (Greater Anglia's bike restriction is based on arriving into Cambridge, not departing Ely, before 08:45), then many bike commuters who use the current 08:58, and who will now be forced to buy a season ticket anyway, because of the Y4/B3 off-peak timing change, will probably switch to that train. And add in the fact that Greater Anglia are introducing cheaper "Greater Anglia only" fares on the Ely to Cambridge route, and there could well be capacity problems on that train.
 

gingerheid

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Table 17 is better for services from Cambridge and north thereof (to Kings Cross). At a quick glance it appears rather more accurate. It also has the complete service between Cambridge and Ely, including XC and GA. Not sure why they've added stations north of Cambridge/Cambridge North to Table 25 at all.

I mean in some respects it's better... but I can't imagine the good people of Peterborough are going to be happy that just quite so many of their trains to London are being replaced with Thameslink trains to Ipswich? Certainly great news if you are commuting to Ipswich; currently you're looking at a 1h40m journey time and the earliest arrival is 0946, but they're now looking at 5 trains arriving before 8am and journeys of less than 75m.

I don't know why they haven't been boasting about this. It must be the best kept secret since Eurostar Link.
 

Skimble19

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I’m on the 14:24 CBG to BTN now. He’s definitely Canadian.
Seeing as I know him personally rather than by just listening to a pre-recorded announcement, I can assure you he is not Canadian.. :lol: anyway enough said on that!
 
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