Greater Anglia Bombardier Aventras (Class 720): Technical discussion and introduction

[317666]

Once 720s start going’s was into service on the WAML will it be 10 car services or 5 cars

Five cars only at first, until infrastructure works are completed to allow ten-car operation.

 

[warwickshire]

Five cars only at first, until infrastructure works are completed to allow ten-car operation.

When is the first expected one into revenue earning service for passenger use please?.

 

[Railperf]

Five cars only at first, until infrastructure works are completed to allow ten-car operation.

Be nice to see a few more GEML diagrams covered by 720's. Any update on acceptance which is said to have stalled?

 

[Alfie1014]

Has 560 been noted accepted in traffic yet? It was with another on the 15:15 Liv St to Southend Vic this afternoon.

It‘s reported elsewhere that 560 is still at Wembley so I’m not sure what I saw on Thursday it wasn’t 550 was that was on the following Clacton service which I caught home. Performance still is impressive though 550+517 covered Chelmsford to Witham start to stop in 6mins 59secs without exceeding 95mph which is 2.5mins quicker than the schedule allows and Witham to Colchester in 10mins 09secs but that was tempered by the approach control in to platform 1 at Colchester which must add at least 30 secs or more into the schedule or it would have been even quicker. Even so nearly 2 mins faster than the schedule but in this case not checked at Chits Hill level crossing which again is pretty rare.

 

[Shunter_69]

Not getting checked for Chitts Hill usually means an Inter City is coming the other way

 

[Railperf]

Not getting checked for Chitts Hill usually means an Inter City is coming the other way

It's the same annoyance coming into Kelvedon on a stopper southbound. Usually come into Kelvedon on caution signals which makes the Marks Tey to Kelvedon time quite slow because the barriers have not closed. Whereas the Intercity always gets a clear run..

 

[Shunter_69]

Always get checked down for Kelvedon London bound if stopping there. Something to do with Church Street crossing I believe. Always thought it was odd to get a red at Kelvedon when something is coming the other way on greens.

The Clacton’s get greens as well as the Inter Cities.

 

[Shwam3]

As Church Street is an AHB, stopping trains in the up direction will be checked down. If they were to get clear signals the crossing would time-out and show as "failed" for each stopping train.
Exactly the same arrangement is in place at Diss on the up because of Palgrave AHB.

 

[Railperf]

As Church Street is an AHB, stopping trains in the up direction will be checked down. If they were to get clear signals the crossing would time-out and show as "failed" for each stopping train.
Exactly the same arrangement is in place at Diss on the up because of Palgrave AHB.

How is the crossing setup to differentiate between fast and stoppers? Is it manually cleared by signallers?

Not getting checked for Chitts Hill usually means an Inter City is coming the other way

I had the Chitts Hill check today..plus signal 1027 is v slow to clear even though the route through Colchester was set and no traffic in station. What makes this ridiculous is the fact that the 1Pxx storming up behind is seeing yellows as the 1Nxx is sat at Witham. Ideally the Clactin should be given a clear run as it is followed closely by the Norwich. But due to these operational constraints..the Clacton gets a slow run..and the Norwich behind it is even slower.

 

[Shunter_69]

How is the crossing setup to differentiate between fast and stoppers? Is it manually cleared by signallers?


I had the Chitts Hill check today..plus signal 1027 is v slow to clear even though the route through Colchester was set and no traffic in station. What makes this ridiculous is the fact that the 1Pxx storming up behind is seeing yellows as the 1Nxx is sat at Witham. Ideally the Clactin should be given a clear run as it is followed closely by the Norwich. But due to these operational constraints..the Clacton gets a slow run..and the Norwich behind it is even slower.

They both still usually arrive early though as there is so much slack in the timetable.

My biggest issue with Chitts Hill is when I drive the first Up road at 04:43 and get stopped there waiting for the crossing to close.

 

[Shwam3]

How is the crossing setup to differentiate between fast and stoppers? Is it manually cleared by signallers?

A "Non-Stopping" button is provided on the panel/screen at the protecting signals which the signaller or ARS operates.

 

[Railperf]

A "Non-Stopping" button is provided on the panel/screen at the protecting signals which the signaller or ARS operates.

GA have advertised a desire to accelerate the services once all the 720's are in service and replacing the 321's. But some of these operational issues look like they will prevent the 720's and 745's being used to their full potential.

When is the first expected one into revenue earning service for passenger use please?.

Wasn't the plan to populate the GEML with 720's first?

The three GEML Class 720 diagrams covering Ipswich Colchester Town and Clacton seem to be reasonably reliable at the moment. Looks like another 7 or 8 pairs needed to cover the main line - excluding Southend/Braintree.
A WAML driver says intro of 720's was delayed by several months - they are now hoping for July!

 

[warwickshire]

GA have advertised a desire to accelerate the services once all the 720's are in service and replacing the 321's. But some of these operational issues look like they will prevent the 720's and 745's being used to their full potential.

Wasn't the plan to populate the GEML with 720's first?

Yes sorry I mean the west Anglia side to replace the final 317s

 

[Alfie1014]

GA have advertised a desire to accelerate the services once all the 720's are in service and replacing the 321's. But some of these operational issues look like they will prevent the 720's and 745's being used to their full potential.

Wasn't the plan to populate the GEML with 720's first?

The three GEML Class 720 diagrams covering Ipswich Colchester Town and Clacton seem to be reasonably reliable at the moment. Looks like another 7 or 8 pairs needed to cover the main line - excluding Southend/Braintree.
A WAML driver says intro of 720's was delayed by several months - they are now hoping for July!

The draft diagrams posted on another site for the September timetable change show 69 x 720 diagrams required for an almost fully restored GE timetable on weekdays. However with it being almost three months since any additional units have been accepted for traffic that looks totally undeliverable as it would require the delivery and acceptance of 50 or so units in the next 10 weeks or so!

 

[Railperf]

The draft diagrams posted on another site for the September timetable change show 69 x 720 diagrams required for an almost fully restored GE timetable on weekdays. However with it being almost three months since any additional units have been accepted for traffic that looks totally undeliverable as it would require the delivery and acceptance of 50 or so units in the next 10 weeks or so!

That suggests 19 units are accepted and in service, but it looks to me that only 10-12 are in service each day. Sounds like there are some at Harwich being used for driver training, and i noted a few sitting at Ilford and Orient Way. Looks like almost as many sitting around than in service at the moment.

 

[Gulf1159]

720560+720566 noted on trial trips at Shenfield 5Q43 at 1710 30/06/21

 

[Alfie1014]

720560+720566 noted on trial trips at Shenfield 5Q43 at 1710 30/06/21

Yep saw this pair at Colchester after which they ran to Liverpool St and then went back to Wembley. Which seems to confirm that they have not been accepted yet and are still mileage accumulating. They dwelled for a long time at some stations on the Clacton branch earlier which wasn’t timetabled suggesting the bugs haven’t been ironed out. The 16:14 Liv St to Clacton (pair of 720s) was also cancelled yesterday, door problems apparently according to GA’s Twitter feed.

 

[grumpyoldman01]

Airport 720s? That’s a new one… can’t say I’ve heard of that before?

I was on holiday in Norwich earlier this week, and I heard of this from two GA staff members; the first was from a member of the platform staff when I was having a look at a 745, and the second from a conductor on a 755 going north to Sheringham.

I didn't know all door operations on a 755 are by the driver, and the conversation with the conductor started by me asking how the doors were controlled as I'd noticed that it didn't seem to be by him; he explained that they were basically DOO trains, and then went on to say that this was causing Norwich-based conductors some concern as the railway was going to have to find massive cost savings as a consequence of the substantial financial support provided by government throughout the pandemic, and from less fare box revenue due to much reduced passenger numbers. I asked if they really thought that conductors would be removed from regional services, and he acknowledged that - at present - conductors are taking "loads" of money on those services, and that their retention seemed sensible; he then went on to tell me that there had been a massive change in demand on the London services, trains leaving after 9am often being "heaving" whereas 30 on one before that time was now seen as being a good load.

As he'd mentioned Norwich - London services, I commented on the fact that I'd seen a number of the Stansted sets on them, and he opined that this was due to two factors; firstly, not enough trains had been procured by Greater Anglia for GE Main Line services and, secondly, that Stadler had got rid of too many staff after they took over Crown Point Depot and that consequently they were having difficulty in maintaining the 745s. This resulted in the need to substitute Stansted sets on Norwich services, and this was costing Greater Anglia a fortune as they were having to refund the first-class premium on tickets sold for trains which didn't have first class accommodation on them, and that they were going to address this situation in two ways; this was possible by and reflected changes in demand brought about by Covid.

Primarily, demand for London suburban services had dropped considerably and it had been acknowledged that it was unlikely to increase back to pre-Covid levels, and therefore shorter formation trains and/or reduced service levels would be able to cope; and secondly, international travel restrictions of some form are likely to stay indefinitely, and so the need for 12-car trains to operate Stansted Airport services disappears.

Greater Anglia therefore plan to "upgrade" the Stansted Express 745s so that they have first class and catering and provide them with a single, common, fleet which would only operate London - Norwich services, and to alter the interiors of the last of the 720s so that they have tables and form a sub-fleet specifically for Stansted Airport services; both the member of the platform staff and the conductor implied all of the Stansted Express 745s were to be "upgraded", but neither gave any indication as to how many 720s were to be changed to form the sub-fleet (and both also only mentioned the provision of tables).

Both of the guys I spoke to implied these changes were definitely going to happen and were not proposals or rumours, and as both had only mentioned the addition of tables in the 720s I'd guessed that - because of the similarity in what they said - their source was some kind of staff briefing

 

[Shunter_69]

Would seem odd to add tables to 720’s to replace 745’s without tables on the Stansted Express

 

[samuelmorris]

You know what else would work for Stansted Express instead of the 745s? 379s... <ducks for cover>

As for surplus 755s ending up in EMR-land, if GBR is anything like the strategic rail authority, who knows it could well happen. I'd be very curious to see what modifications are planned for 720s doing airport work. Right now with the 'seats, seats and more seats' approach they are quite ill-suited to doing airport runs with heavy luggage usage, moreso I would say than most other newly introduced EMUs of late.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

You know what else would work for Stansted Express instead of the 745s? 379s... <ducks for cover>

As for surplus 755s ending up in EMR-land, if GBR is anything like the strategic rail authority, who knows it could well happen. I'd be very curious to see what modifications are planned for 720s doing airport work. Right now with the 'seats, seats and more seats' approach they are quite ill-suited to doing airport runs with heavy luggage usage, moreso I would say than most other newly introduced EMUs of late.

This just illuminates many of the challenges that need a rolling stock strategy response. 755's were underutilised before Covid, what do with the 379's, containing 745's on GE IC services means too many for just that service so what to do with the surplus oh and how many of the 145 class 720's will be needed. If it wasn't for the 755's id say send the 745's somewhere else and just deploy the 720's but that won't save cost.

 

[F Great Eastern]

This just illuminates many of the challenges that need a rolling stock strategy response. 755's were underutilised before Covid, what do with the 379's, containing 745's on GE IC services means too many for just that service so what to do with the surplus oh and how many of the 145 class 720's will be needed. If it wasn't for the 755's id say send the 745's somewhere else and just deploy the 720's but that won't save cost.

If it wasn't for COVID Greater Anglia's bid would have been far more horribly exposed.

The poor availability of the 745s hasn't been exposed that much. If we didn't have COVID then it would be a different story.

 

[samuelmorris]

Agreed, the pandemic has saved their backsides. I believe there are only 133 720s (excluding c2c's) not 145?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Agreed, the pandemic has saved their backsides. I believe there are only 133 720s (excluding c2c's) not 145?

Argh yes added C2C ones mind you i would give them all to GA. Homogeneous fleets it what saves on operating costs.

 

[47421]

I believe these are all the currently planned works on the West Anglia:

• Brimsdown up direction signal move.
• Enfield Lock up direction signal move.
• St Margarets down direction signal move.
• Ware London end S&C + signal move.
• Hertford East S&C + signal move + platform extensions.
• Stratford platform 11 country end signal move + platform extension.
• Cambridge platform 4 extension.

I have no idea what the timescales are for any of these or whether they will actually end up going ahead.


Shelford down direction will be front-off ASDO for 10 cars, the same at all other short platforms with a crossing behind.


No signal moves at Elsenham at all, they are already far enough off the end of the platforms.

Any updates on whether and when these works will be done? Now the whole fleet is 5car, and taking into account post covid loadings, I am wondering whether they will bother? Eg Hert East / Ware / St Margarets, that is a lot of work for capacity increases that may not now be needed?

 

[Shwam3]

Any updates on whether and when these works will be done? Now the whole fleet is 5car, and taking into account post covid loadings, I am wondering whether they will bother? Eg Hert East / Ware / St Margarets, that is a lot of work for capacity increases that may not now be needed?

Missing off of that list is also Broxbourne plats 1&4 extensions.

None of these have started works on the ground yet but all are in some phase of design.

 

[ExRes]

Photos on Hanson & Hall facebook today of Class 20s and IWA barrier vans hooked up to a 720 at Wembley, caption reads "A busy day at Wembley, as Hanson & Hall begins a new programme of class 720 movements"

Is anyone able to shed any light?

 

[800001]

Photos on Hanson & Hall facebook today of Class 20s and IWA barrier vans hooked up to a 720 at Wembley, caption reads "A busy day at Wembley, as Hanson & Hall begins a new programme of class 720 movements"

Is anyone able to shed any light?

They are now contracted to move the units in Wembley yard to the maintenance sheds for exams and servicing.

 

[ExRes]

They are now contracted to move the units in Wembley yard to the maintenance sheds for exams and servicing.

Thanks for the info

 

[The_Train]

They are now contracted to move the units in Wembley yard to the maintenance sheds for exams and servicing.

Interesting - which class 20s are they using?