GWR Class 230 Information, Movements & Discussion.

[Anonymous10]

VivaRails administrators have provided a progress report confirming that GWR has purchased the Marston Vale Units for the princely sum of £60k deemed to be the scrap value. The leasing company had them in the books for £3.3m. TfW must be crying in their milk having expended £30m on their 230's.

GWR acquired 230001, the intellectual property, plant and stored unconverted vehicles for £1.4m.

As usual the only winner in these cases are the administrators who now expect to receive £0.9m.

Other interesting observation is that Strukton Rail had commenced legal proceedings against VivaRail for £15m reasons aren't explained but Strukton Rail were owed 1.3m when administrators were appointed but looks like the administration will terminate proceedings.

All in all a sad ending for the vision here but maybe GWR will keep the vision alive although i can't see any further D78's being converted this is now about proof of concept for battery and fast charge system. Im also surmising that DfT have approved expenditure so they can get a photo op to say they are working on solutions to decarbonise rail.

Might hope this could help tfw negotiate a lower lease on their units if not owned by the company.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Might hope this could help tfw negotiate a lower lease on their units if not owned by the company.

TfW own the units outright decided it would be cheaper than leasing

 

[D365]

TfW own the units outright decided it would be cheaper than leasing

Which, under normal circumstances, it would have been..!

 

[Peter Sarf]

VivaRails administrators have provided a progress report confirming that GWR has purchased the Marston Vale Units for the princely sum of £60k deemed to be the scrap value. The leasing company had them in the books for £3.3m. TfW must be crying in their milk having expended £30m on their 230's.

GWR acquired 230001, the intellectual property, plant and stored unconverted vehicles for £1.4m.

As usual the only winner in these cases are the administrators who now expect to receive £0.9m.

Other interesting observation is that Strukton Rail had commenced legal proceedings against VivaRail for £15m reasons aren't explained but Strukton Rail were owed 1.3m when administrators were appointed but looks like the administration will terminate proceedings.

All in all a sad ending for the vision here but maybe GWR will keep the vision alive although i can't see any further D78's being converted this is now about proof of concept for battery and fast charge system. Im also surmising that DfT have approved expenditure so they can get a photo op to say they are working on solutions to decarbonise rail.

Thanks for finding that @Nicholas Lewis. Now it is up to GWR to spend the big money making something out of the fast charge battery technology.

I think the previous diesel versions are another story but the problems TfW seem to have look solvable. Not however a millstone round GWRs neck so the fast charge technology can be focused on.

 

[The exile]

.

All in all a sad ending for the vision here but maybe GWR will keep the vision alive although i can't see any further D78's being converted this is now about proof of concept for battery and fast charge system. Im also surmising that DfT have approved expenditure so they can get a photo op to say they are working on solutions to decarbonise rail.

If the fast charging works in the D78, then the question of “where do we get suitable short vehicles for some of the SW branches” can be resolved for 10 - 15 years.

 

[Anonymous10]

If the fast charging works in the D78, then the question of “where do we get suitable short vehicles for some of the SW branches” can be resolved for 10 - 15 years.

Could stadler tram trains not be a possible long term solution like what tfw are getting.

 

[Bigvernicus]

Alleleys Lorry with RailTrailer today seen heading from M1 towards Bletchley, possibly to pick up the Class 230's to transfer to Reading

 

[FGW_DID]

Alleleys Lorry with RailTrailer today seen heading from M1 towards Bletchley, possibly to pick up the Class 230's to transfer to Reading

Should be, 3x 2 cars are due to arrive over the course of this week. Should all be at Reading by Thursday night / Friday morning.

update: 230003 is the first arrival.

Reading has its first Class 230, 230003.

 

[Benjwri]

Should be, 3x 2 cars are due to arrive over the course of this week. Should all be at Reading by Thursday night / Friday morning.

update: 230003 is the first arrival.

Reading has its first Class 230, 230003.

View attachment 138941View attachment 138942

Sorry if I've missed it but what is the plan with these? AIUI these are DEMUs rather than battery variants. Are GWR planning on using them for passenger service?

 

[JN114]

Sorry if I've missed it but what is the plan with these? AIUI these are DEMUs rather than battery variants. Are GWR planning on using them for passenger service?

They were purchased at scrap value, presumably as a source of parts and to aid with some familiarisation of running gear etc.

The project is very much about trialling the fast charging concept and hardware, rather than replacing anything currently running. That will initially be on the Greenford branch.

 

[TurboMan]

Sorry if I've missed it but what is the plan with these? AIUI these are DEMUs rather than battery variants. Are GWR planning on using them for passenger service?

In warm storage for the moment, nothing concrete beyond that.

 

[Jacob Porrett]

Should be, 3x 2 cars are due to arrive over the course of this week. Should all be at Reading by Thursday night / Friday morning.

update: 230003 is the first arrival.

Reading has its first Class 230, 230003.

View attachment 138941View attachment 138942

I didn't realise that GWR were having the LNWR 230s?

 

[FGW_DID]

I didn't realise that GWR were having the LNWR 230s?

See post#70. 230001 (3 car, already in GWR livery) will be the Greenford trial unit.

Today saw the arrival of 230005 which means tomorrow will see 230004 arrive.

 

[Benjwri]

See post#70. 230001 (3 car, already in GWR livery) will be the Greenford trial unit.

Today saw the arrival of 230005 which means tomorrow will see 230004 arrive.

I think the point was more that they are now sat at Reading.

Who actually owns the two ex-LNWR trains now? Considering GWR drivers will train on the 230s anyways for the Greenford branch, why hasn't throwing the two LNWR units on the branches been considered? Would release two turbos which would be very valuable.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I think the point was more that they are now sat at Reading.

Who actually owns the two ex-LNWR trains now? Considering GWR drivers will train on the 230s anyways for the Greenford branch, why hasn't throwing the two LNWR units on the branches been considered? Would release two turbos which would be very valuable.

All three of the LNWR 230s are coming to Reading from Bletchley aiui. They were bought for scrap value by GWR and I doubt if GWR have bought the expertise to maintain them as diesel units. However maybe they will, after the trials, have their engine rafts replaced with battery rafts and then go into service.

I look at it this way. Because GWR bought the 60 plus D78 vehicles at scrap value the three Marston Vale units would be even more tempting if at scrap value as they have had a number of modifications to make them into 230s (cabs, seating, loo ? etc).

 

[Wyrleybart]

All three of the LNWR 230s are coming to Reading from Bletchley aiui. They were bought for scrap value by GWR and I doubt if GWR have bought the expertise to maintain them as diesel units. However maybe they will, after the trials, have their engine rafts replaced with battery rafts and then go into service.

I look at it this way. Because GWR bought the 60 plus D78 vehicles at scrap value the three Marston Vale units would be even more tempting if at scrap value as they have had a number of modifications to make them into 230s (cabs, seating, loo ? etc).

Yes Peter. With some work 230003-005 could be modified into 230001, albeit without centre cars. vivarail's big selling point for the D78 stock was the modular design. It has been suggested that the Marston Vale 230s ate Fort Duratorqs for breakfast, so if 230001 is intended to be a success then 230003-005 kogically become BEMUs

 

[Woods]

Take it from me, there is no way that 230003-005 will ever go back into service as DEMUs. GWR don't have the expertise, the spares, or the inclination to get into that sort of folly. They will sit there in 'warm store' at Reading until a decision is made to convert them to battery (or not). And it's not as simple to convert them to battery as the Vivarail publicity might have once suggested, the 'modular' design may have been the intent, but the reality of the engineering involved is somewhat more complicated.....

 

[Peter Sarf]

Take it from me, there is no way that 230003-005 will ever go back into service as DEMUs. GWR don't have the expertise, the spares, or the inclination to get into that sort of folly. They will sit there in 'warm store' at Reading until a decision is made to convert them to battery (or not). And it's not as simple to convert them to battery as the Vivarail publicity might have once suggested, the 'modular' design may have been the intent, but the reality of the engineering involved is somewhat more complicated.....

I can believe that !. Most things in life easy to convert in principle have evolved so as to make "plug and play" a dream. I suppose a good way to look at it is that 230003, 230004 & 230005 are nearer but not very close to conversion to a fast charge battery unit compared to the 60 odd D78 coaches ?.

In the meantime lets watch how the trials go with 230001.

 

[Benjwri]

Just seen 230005 put together on the track, and a driving cab for 004 on a truck about to be unloaded passing Reading Traincare.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Take it from me, there is no way that 230003-005 will ever go back into service as DEMUs. GWR don't have the expertise, the spares, or the inclination to get into that sort of folly. They will sit there in 'warm store' at Reading until a decision is made to convert them to battery (or not). And it's not as simple to convert them to battery as the Vivarail publicity might have once suggested, the 'modular' design may have been the intent, but the reality of the engineering involved is somewhat more complicated.....

I have no reason to disagree with you in your first sentence. The point though is these three MV units have clearance as PRM rolling stock to run on NR rails and GWR are really desperate forDMU vehicles. It is my belief that the DfT in conjunction with GWR seniors see 230003-005 as potential battery trains to either replace 165s, or move west and replace 150s.

Judging by the recent shenanigans with 769s and 230s I hope it will be a case of "third time lucky" with these as BEMUs, but the omens are not good if you look towards Wrexham, which admittedly has the common denominator of diesel engines. Prior to their demise Vivarail admitted they were trying to breakaway from diesel engines, but where elsewhere in the world are railways trying to convert electric trains to erm non electric trains ?

 

[Woods]

I have no reason to disagree with you in your first sentence. The point though is these three MV units have clearance as PRM rolling stock to run on NR rails and GWR are really desperate forDMU vehicles. It is my belief that the DfT in conjunction with GWR seniors see 230003-005 as potential battery trains to either replace 165s, or move west and replace 150s.

Judging by the recent shenanigans with 769s and 230s I hope it will be a case of "third time lucky" with these as BEMUs, but the omens are not good if you look towards Wrexham, which admittedly has the common denominator of diesel engines. Prior to their demise Vivarail admitted they were trying to breakaway from diesel engines, but where elsewhere in the world are railways trying to convert electric trains to erm non electric trains ?

Yes I agree with you that DfT and GWR seniors see 230003 to 230005 as potential battery trains to replace 165s. But I'm far less convinced that they'd ever be put back into traffic as diesel units.

The fact that the 'D Train' project started as converting electric trains to diesel-electric, then went from diesel-electric to battery (via hybrid), was just the way it happened. It was never planned to be that way. Yes it was originally the aim of the Vivarail project to convert an electric train to diesel-electric but that was in the context of a shortage of DMUs at the time. So it was logical. It was that or the electric D78s were sent for scrap. Sadly, it was hardly likely that diesel-only branch lines would be converted to LUL 3rd and 4th rail!

I think the point was more that they are now sat at Reading.

Who actually owns the two ex-LNWR trains now? Considering GWR drivers will train on the 230s anyways for the Greenford branch, why hasn't throwing the two LNWR units on the branches been considered? Would release two turbos which would be very valuable.

GWR own the ex-WMT units, 230003 to 230005.

 

[MK Tom]

In an optimistic scenario in which the battery trial is a success and further conversions happen (did GWR's purchase of VivaRail assets include the other unconverted D-stock vehicles?) they would also be well suited to the Windsor, Marlow, and Henley branches. That would use up the three LNWR units and require one more for Greenford (plus a spare or two). I don't see them being useful for anywhere else, given the Oxford/Banbury locals require higher operating speeds, unless a batch were based in Bristol or Devon for the branches down there.

 

[tomuk]

In an optimistic scenario in which the battery trial is a success and further conversions happen (did GWR's purchase of VivaRail assets include the other unconverted D-stock vehicles?) they would also be well suited to the Windsor, Marlow, and Henley branches. That would use up the three LNWR units and require one more for Greenford (plus a spare or two). I don't see them being useful for anywhere else, given the Oxford/Banbury locals require higher operating speeds, unless a batch were based in Bristol or Devon for the branches down there.

Yes GWR bought the remaining D78 shells stored at Long Marston

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

They would also be well suited to the Windsor, Marlow, and Henley branches.

No they very much wouldn’t be, unless the first and last were run in pairs.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Yes GWR bought the remaining D78 shells stored at Long Marston

Would the liquidators be in a position to reveal the money paid as part of the realisation of that particular asset at this moment in time?

 

[DelW]

Would the liquidators be in a position to reveal the money paid as part of the realisation of that particular asset at this moment in time?

Post #60 quoted a scrap value of £60,000 for the three Marston Vale units, therefore £10,000 per vehicle. Assuming the diesel engines and alternators on those units have some value, the unconverted D78s will be worth a little less per vehicle.

 

[tomuk]

Would the liquidators be in a position to reveal the money paid as part of the realisation of that particular asset at this moment in time?

Seprate to te £60k for the ex Bletchly 230s. GWR paid the administrators £1.4m. Broken down as £350k for the IP, £170k for Plant and Machinery and £870k for Stock. On can probably assume that the spare bodyshells are the £870k. And that 230001 is in the £170k figure as otherwise it seems high for the tools and equipment in the workshop at Southam.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

When the D78 stock were taken out of service, what would have been the still-expected life time left of those units that were purchased by Vivarail if they had continued in LU service?

 

[DelW]

When the D78 stock were taken out of service, what would have been the still-expected life time left of those units that were purchased by Vivarail if they had continued in LU service?

They went at about the same time as the C69 stock, so that was (roughly) 9 years older than the D78s were. The C69s had been used on similar routes (District and Circle) so the D78s should have matched their longevity.

For other fleets, the A stock (Met) and 72 and 73 tube fleets (Bakerloo and Piccadilly) all made 50 years.

So the D78s might reasonably have lasted another ten years or more, except that TfL wanted a uniform fleet of S stock on the subsurface lines.

 

[Deepgreen]

When the D78 stock were taken out of service, what would have been the still-expected life time left of those units that were purchased by Vivarail if they had continued in LU service?

Hard to be sure - aluminium bodies have good longevity but it depend on the underframe condition. Probably at least another 10-15 years.