GWR Class 800

[spark001uk]

The 800 (and presumably the 802) design supports up to 12 carriages per set and the design is likely to be in production for quite a while, so other than finance there's no reason why additional carriages couldn't be added.

Agreed. They did it with the pendo.

 

[coppercapped]

I doubt it. Seems most PZ-PAdd services going to be 5 or 10 car meaning crampt condition on a 5 car, or on a ten car, double crews / half of train only, able to use restaraunt etc.
9 cars seem to be reserved mainly for Cotswold route , stoppers etc...
I think this obsession with portion working on the WofE route may come back to bite us on the arse, after all virgin crosscountry originally promised its Voyagers would generally operate in pairs! That lasted all of about a year!

The DfT inspired 'IEP' fleet will go nowhere near Penzance - some might reach Exeter or Torbay at most in scheduled operation. The 'IEP' 9 car trains are for the Bristol and South Wales services and the five car units are intended for the Evesham - Worcester route and the intensified service to Cheltenham via Swindon as well as the extra non-stop Bristol - Paddington trains. In peak hours the Worcester trains will, at a minimum, run as 10 coach trains to Oxford.

The additional trains ordered for GWR by Eversholt will be used through to Plymouth and Penzance. Apart from general broad statements I am not aware of any publicly available information about the details of their diagrams.

 

[Envy123]

I haven't been keeping up to date at all with this. The 5 car VTEC units, what routes are these planned to operate? VTEC 9 coaches now are often full and standing.

They are? Has long-distance commuting to London exploded recently? :eek:

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Well Virgin’s so called ‘Operation Princess’ got it completely wrong. They failed to foresee the massive rise in passengers caused when the Voyager fleet started running. Now, I am wondering whether the GWR have also got things wrong? Why for example, are 9 coach trains planned for the north Cotswold line through to Worcester & Hereford? I would have thought that 5 coach trains would have been suitable with another 5 coaches being added at Oxford.
Assuming that loadings don’t quite match fleet orders/diagrams, would it be possible to add extra trailer coaches at a later date to say turn a 5 coach train into 6 or 7 cars? Likewise, 9 coach trains get lengthened? (That is assuming platform length is suitable or that money is spent on extensions).

The IEP spec and contracts were solely down to the DfT.
FGW/GWR/VTEC got to decide the external livery and not much else.
The basic VTEC configurations were contracted by DfT before Virgin/Stagecoach took over the franchise.
I very much doubt the configurations will change, because the contracts are extremely complex and the DfT will be reluctant to do it.
The TOCs could order more trains to their spec, of course, as GWR already has.
VTEC can keep IC225s on if it wants.

Joining/dividing Voyagers works fine on the WCML at places like Chester, Crewe and Wolverhampton.
XC also do it at Bristol and Newcastle on a few trains.
There's no reason it shouldn't work on GWR/VTEC.
It's the only way some destinations will get served.

 

[Master29]

Just a case of wait and see I suppose....

 

[jayah]

Well Virgin’s so called ‘Operation Princess’ got it completely wrong. They failed to foresee the massive rise in passengers caused when the Voyager fleet started running.

Not really true. Princess and the original franchise was based on doubling passenger numbers. Truth was they ran out of capacity long before doubling passengers.

What I suspect went wrong is they thought they could fill all the empty seats, but those awkward passengers and regulated fares meant the increases came when they couldn't all cram on to their tiny trains.

Much of Princess was totally unworkable and the taxpayer should have a timeshare on Branson's tropical island with free flights thrown in, after bailing him and Souter out by hundreds of £m.

 

[aar0]

Just seen a 5 coach 800, white with one end striped in red, in the Swansea electrified sidings. I have a photo, but no idea how to upload it from my phone!

 

[gsnedders]

Even then most of the services North of Edinburgh warrant a full set anyway - certainly the Aberdeen & Inverness service/s are busy, not sure about the Glasgow but even if it were quieter I doubt there'd be much gain in splitting and joining for it anyway.

I haven't been on the Aberdeen services in a while; certainly the ~0920 (variously been ±2 minutes over the years) from Leuchars tended to be hard to get a seat on, with lots of people getting on there (it's the first off-peak train south). The train two hours later was always much quieter.

As for Glasgow—the last few times I've been on that I've often had nearly a whole carriage to myself.

 

[najaB]

I haven't been on the Aberdeen services in a while; certainly the ~0920 (variously been ±2 minutes over the years) from Leuchars tended to be hard to get a seat on, with lots of people getting on there (it's the first off-peak train south). The train two hours later was always much quieter.

If Scotrail were being clever they would start the 0829 from Dundee to Edinburgh a little later and get that traffic.

 

[Clansman]

I don't want to draw comparisons to Voyagers or anything, but given that XC services up to Dundee and Aberdeen are generally full and standing by Kirkcaldy, so although the 800s pose way higher capacity than the Voyagers, the margins of capacity which you are allowing for the service is pretty slim if you were to run 5-coaches. A full 9 car set seems most appropriate for this. The only instance where 5-car running would work without incident North of Edinburgh would be the Stirling services. Also, a 5-car IEP has significantly fewer first class seats (obviously) and both Inverness and Aberdeen routes are often near sell-outs by around Dundee/Leuchars and Perth/Stirling currently on HSTs.

 

[JamesT]

I don't want to draw comparisons to Voyagers or anything, but given that XC services up to Dundee and Aberdeen are generally full and standing by Kirkcaldy, so although the 800s pose way higher capacity than the Voyagers, the margins of capacity which you are allowing for the service is pretty slim if you were to run 5-coaches. A full 9 car set seems most appropriate for this. The only instance where 5-car running would work without incident North of Edinburgh would be the Stirling services. Also, a 5-car IEP has significantly fewer first class seats (obviously) and both Inverness and Aberdeen routes are often near sell-outs by around Dundee/Leuchars and Perth/Stirling currently on HSTs.

Will VTEC need that much capacity, given the extra that Scotrail will be putting on with their HSTs instead of the 170s?

 

[najaB]

I don't want to draw comparisons to Voyagers or anything, but given that XC services up to Dundee and Aberdeen are generally full and standing by Kirkcaldy...

Do you mean the AM services heading south to Edinburgh? I've never been on a northbound XC service that is anywhere close to full, nevermind standing after leaving Edinburgh.

 

[gsnedders]

Do you mean the AM services heading south to Edinburgh? I've never been on a northbound XC service that is anywhere close to full, nevermind standing after leaving Edinburgh.

Do I remember correctly that the now 1810 XC service to Aberdeen used to be the first off-peak service north? I certainly remember some evening XC service always being rammed full once they moved over to Voyagers. I want to say 1840ish? The 1830 seems to be on-peak.

 

[jimm]

I doubt it. Seems most PZ-PAdd services going to be 5 or 10 car meaning crampt condition on a 5 car, or on a ten car, double crews / half of train only, able to use restaraunt etc.
9 cars seem to be reserved mainly for Cotswold route , stoppers etc...
I think this obsession with portion working on the WofE route may come back to bite us on the arse, after all virgin crosscountry originally promised its Voyagers would generally operate in pairs! That lasted all of about a year!

Well Virgin’s so called ‘Operation Princess’ got it completely wrong. They failed to foresee the massive rise in passengers caused when the Voyager fleet started running. Now, I am wondering whether the GWR have also got things wrong? Why for example, are 9 coach trains planned for the north Cotswold line through to Worcester & Hereford? I would have thought that 5 coach trains would have been suitable with another 5 coaches being added at Oxford.

The DfT inspired 'IEP' fleet will go nowhere near Penzance - some might reach Exeter or Torbay at most in scheduled operation. The 'IEP' 9 car trains are for the Bristol and South Wales services and the five car units are intended for the Evesham - Worcester route and the intensified service to Cheltenham via Swindon as well as the extra non-stop Bristol - Paddington trains. In peak hours the Worcester trains will, at a minimum, run as 10 coach trains to Oxford.

The additional trains ordered for GWR by Eversholt will be used through to Plymouth and Penzance. Apart from general broad statements I am not aware of any publicly available information about the details of their diagrams.

Having been away for a while, nothing much seems to have changed, with the usual myths still being recycled.

Five-car Paddington to Penzance services? West of Plymouth perhaps, where much of the time five cars will be perfectly adequate (same as portion working with loco-hauled stock was under BR and the GWR west of Plymouth for many years) - and there will be more London-Cornwall services and Cornish main line regional services to boot - but why do you think it will be so hard to roster nine-car 802s on the trains where a bit more capacity will be needed, or for the Pullman services? The Pullmans already require extra attention to diagram HSTs with the right kitchens.

Mark Hopwood has said several times that all GWR peak trains into Paddington in the mornings and out in the evenings will be nine-car or 2x5 car 800s and 802s. Don't you believe him? They might also have worked out summer Saturdays can get a bit busy.

And what's the issue with double crewing where needed? XC and Virgin cope somehow and the RMT surely won't object to lots of people being employed.

Sorry but Operation Princess never promised lots of doubled-up Voyagers - quite the reverse - and even with various routes being cut, we didn't see that many more pairs of Voyagers out there.

RE use of nine-car stock on the Cotswold Line, this will most certainly be happening, especially in the peaks. Basically half the fasts between London and Oxford run to and from the Cotswold Line over the course of the day, with some stock diagrams mixing London-Oxford turns with duties to Worcester or Hereford. The second batch of seven nine-car 802s was ordered specifically for the Oxford (and Cotswold) route and peak services on the Berks & Hants. At least one of the first batch of nine-car 802s was also initially planned to help cover Cotswold Line peak duties.

As things stand, a number of HST services arrive at Oxford in the mornings from the Cotswolds and leave in the other direction in the evenings full up (and standing on some days too, try the 17.22 off Paddington on a Friday). Signal positions at a couple of stations also rule out - unless the signals are moved and there's no sign of that so far - the use of 2x5 formations, as you can't get part of both trains on the short platforms.

The service is most likely to see Cotswold peak HSTs swapped for nine-car 802s, with the current 180 and 165/6 duties and off-peak HSTs replaced by five-car 800s, dropping/adding another set at Oxford when required. Five-car 800s will also appear on off-peak Paddington-Bedwyn services, once the Bedwyn reversing siding is extended.

 

[Clansman]

Will VTEC need that much capacity, given the extra that Scotrail will be putting on with their HSTs instead of the 170s?

Given that a sizeable sum of passengers who go straight through and down to England, Scotrail HSTs will make little to no difference in this, so it would be pointless to have 5-car IEPs on a regular basis where passenger numbers fluctuate ever so easily on these routes.

 

[Clansman]

Do you mean the AM services heading south to Edinburgh? I've never been on a northbound XC service that is anywhere close to full, nevermind standing after leaving Edinburgh.

Yes, the majority of XC services I've taken from Dundee to England are often full and standing by Kirkcaldy in the morning. As for VTEC, the service patronage normally fluctuates - more often than not it's around half full in standard, and 3/4 full in First. Same applies to the Inverness HST.

The only VTEC service North of Edinburgh worth shortening to a 5-car IEP is the Stirling service, which is always dead - it's a wonder what benefit VTEC get from running it, especially when they could easily get more passengers by extending it to Perth or/and Dundee.

 

[Eliottjames]

Just seen a 5 coach 800, white with one end striped in red, in the Swansea electrified sidings. I have a photo, but no idea how to upload it from my phone!

Yep, just seen this article.
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/local-news/one-fancy-new-trains-set-12779998
Didn't think they were testing anywhere near Swansea yet?

 

[najaB]

Didn't think they were testing anywhere near Swansea yet?

There's a large depot that hadn't seen a train yet.

 

[najaB]

Yes, the majority of XC services I've taken from Dundee to England are often full and standing by Kirkcaldy in the morning.

The majority of whom alight at Haymarket and/or Edinburgh.

 

[leomartin125]

The last two nights of overnight testing for the IEP's, I've managed to catch on the return leg to North Pole IEP Depot, simply by being at Slough as a changing point for my train to work in Oxford.

The first was 800001, which was out all night in Bristol on Monday night/Tuesday morning:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHxfMcx5-H0

The second was 800006 & 800004, still attached to each other following delivery from Merchant Park Sdgs, returning from overnight testing this morning:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11Lag4xsUQo

If anyone knows where 800003 has got to, I would love to know. Was delivered and never seen again AFAIK.

 

[800001]

The last two nights of overnight testing for the IEP's, I've managed to catch on the return leg to North Pole IEP Depot, simply by being at Slough as a changing point for my train to work in Oxford.

The first was 800001, which was out all night in Bristol on Monday night/Tuesday morning:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHxfMcx5-H0

The second was 800006 & 800004, still attached to each other following delivery from Merchant Park Sdgs, returning from overnight testing this morning:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11Lag4xsUQo

If anyone knows where 800003 has got to, I would love to know. Was delivered and never seen again AFAIK.

800003 I believe was the unit sent to Doncaster IEP depot, to help with the commissioning of the facilities there, unsure if still there.

 

[FGW_DID]

800003 & 800004 observed outside the shed at North Pole this morning around 08:15 ish.

We were going slow enough to get a decent clear look at the numbers. There was an unidentified all grey 800 in the shed.

 

[455driver]

The 800 (and presumably the 802) design supports up to 12 carriages per set and the design is likely to be in production for quite a while, so other than finance there's no reason why additional carriages couldn't be added.

What about platform lengths?
especially at Paddington!

 

[D365]

What about platform lengths?
especially at Paddington!

Nobody said it has to be 12 cars...

Remember the Class 378s being stuck at five car length.

 

[D1009]

Given that a sizeable sum of passengers who go straight through and down to England, Scotrail HSTs will make little to no difference in this, so it would be pointless to have 5-car IEPs on a regular basis where passenger numbers fluctuate ever so easily on these routes.

Define a sizeable sum.

 

[Clansman]

Define a sizeable sum.

A sizeable sum meaning that a 5-car 800 would potentially be full and standing by Leuchars and Stirling on both Aberdeen and Inverness VTEC services.

A 5 car IEP has near enough the same amount of Standard Class seats as a doubled up 158 - and that's excluding the capacity the buffet will drain. A lot of us Scottish folk on here who regularly use services from the likes of Inverness/Aberdeen to Edinburgh, will know that doubled up 158 services are often packed upon arrival into the likes of Dundee, Leuchars, Perth and Stirling. So given that's often the case; why are the IEPs be viewed differently for these routes and are seen as enough to cater for the market north of Stirling?

 

[leomartin125]

These have appeared recently. As it so happens, I'm in Swindon on Friday, same place I was the last time this occured as a matter of pure and utter coincidence...

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K97581/2017/03/24/advanced

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K97582/2017/03/24/advanced

 

[The Ham]

Yes, the majority of XC services I've taken from Dundee to England are often full and standing by Kirkcaldy in the morning. As for VTEC, the service patronage normally fluctuates - more often than not it's around half full in standard, and 3/4 full in First. Same applies to the Inverness HST.

The only VTEC service North of Edinburgh worth shortening to a 5-car IEP is the Stirling service, which is always dead - it's a wonder what benefit VTEC get from running it, especially when they could easily get more passengers by extending it to Perth or/and Dundee.

How often does the Stirling service run, could it be worth running it so that it's 10 coaches to Edinburgh and then splitting it to go to Perth and Dundee.

It's worth remembering that a 5 coach 80x will have something like 59% of the capacity of a HST whilst a 9 coach (or pair of 5 coaches) has 18% more capacity than a HST. As a a few extra services running as 5 coaches in between existing services will help with the loadings on those services which are currently running. For instance one a two hour window running an additional short service as well as two full length trains would give you nearly 50% more seats than at present.

 

[Clansman]

How often does the Stirling service run, could it be worth running it so that it's 10 coaches to Edinburgh and then splitting it to go to Perth and Dundee.

It runs daily around 5am southbound, and arrives Northbound around 8pm. It only calls at Haymarket, Falkirk Grahamston and Stirling, after Edinburgh, so the train is never heaving with passengers. VTEC would get more out of it by extending it to Perth - their original plan so I heard - and maybe Dundee.

 

[najaB]

VTEC would get more out of it by extending it to Perth - their original plan so I heard - and maybe Dundee.

There's not much unmet demand for a 2100 arrival into Dundee, and even less so for a 0400 departure.