GWR Class 800

[gsnedders]

Will be running with 2 pantographs in the case of 2x 5 car units coupled together. VTEC will have 22 5 car trains across both 800 and 801 fleets so I suspect that there won't be many cases of multiple operation. I imagine that they'll be passed for 125mph operation in multiple (failing that - 110mph), but I suspect that they won't be cleared for 140mph in multiple without upgrades to the wires (which is what Series 1 was designed with in mind)

What is the current plan when it comes to 140mph operation of the 800/801/802? I presume they can't be currently certified for 140mph running anywhere given they don't have signalling equipment for the only 140mph lines in the UK (i.e., HS1 and TVM)? So, therefore, the current type acceptance will be for 125mph running only?

 

[Domh245]

What is the current plan when it comes to 140mph operation of the 800/801/802? I presume they can't be currently certified for 140mph running anywhere given they don't have signalling equipment for the only 140mph lines in the UK (i.e., HS1 and TVM)? So, therefore, the current type acceptance will be for 125mph running only?

I think it's fair to describe it as a bit of a way off at the moment. They'll initially only be cleared for 125mph operation pending the rollout of ERTMS (which I believe the trains are already fitted with) which would allow 140mph operation. Should that happen (and 140mph operation be decided on as a good idea) then the rollout should be fairly straightforward on the GWML but would require upgrades to the ECML.

 

[96tommy]

I haven't been keeping up to date at all with this. The 5 car VTEC units, what routes are these planned to operate? VTEC 9 coaches now are often full and standing.

 

[ainsworth74]

What is the current plan when it comes to 140mph operation of the 800/801/802? I presume they can't be currently certified for 140mph running anywhere given they don't have signalling equipment for the only 140mph lines in the UK (i.e., HS1 and TVM)? So, therefore, the current type acceptance will be for 125mph running only?

Could be done under a possession overnight or similar special arrangements on the mainline. BR did test runs with trains up to 160mph on conventional infrastructure (and during the course of normal running, no possession!) so just because there's no conventional line that's currently cleared for 140mph doesn't mean it can't be done if required.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I haven't been keeping up to date at all with this. The 5 car VTEC units, what routes are these planned to operate? VTEC 9 coaches now are often full and standing.

Presumably on routes that split, especially off the wires.
(eg 10-car London-Edinburgh, 5-car beyond).

140mph acceptance runs were done on the ECML for class 91/Mk4 under special signalling arrangements.
That would have been mainly to permit payment to the manufacturers as per contract.
IEP is different as it is not paid for up front, but by monthly usage, and 140mph is not called for until an unspecified date in the future (if ever).
So there's probably no contractual need for 140mph acceptance tests yet.
140mph-capable signalling (ETCS) is only committed Paddington-Reading from about 2020.

 

[Mordac]

380s, 700s now 800s. Can't remember other stock having so much trouble with commissioning.

Class 87s and 90s had a quick spin with half a dozen coaches in tow and they were into traffic the next day. Is this the result of buying 'foreign' or just over complicated electronically?

175s. There's a great article on April's Today's Railways about their introduction.

 

[absolutelymilk]

I haven't been keeping up to date at all with this. The 5 car VTEC units, what routes are these planned to operate? VTEC 9 coaches now are often full and standing.

The increase from 23m coaches to 26m coaches, as well as the increased number of services that can run, should take care of this (until growth catches up again!)

 

[43096]

380s, 700s now 800s. Can't remember other stock having so much trouble with commissioning.



Class 87s and 90s had a quick spin with half a dozen coaches in tow and they were into traffic the next day. Is this the result of buying 'foreign' or just over complicated electronically?

I suggest you go and do some research. There is a long list of stuff that has needed extensive testing before entering service over the years, especially of a new design. The first Class 90s were one such type.

 

[Typhoon_93]

Interesting at the Factory today was 815007 from 800007 being moved about but no where near complete. Other sets outside today under test were 008/009/011 so why 007 would be so far behind is quite odd.

 

[swt_passenger]

I haven't been keeping up to date at all with this. The 5 car VTEC units, what routes are these planned to operate? VTEC 9 coaches now are often full and standing.

On the EC routes, there are basically enough 9 car trains to replace the existing fleet, with the 5 cars providing all the significant extra capacity, and the ability to run services to places off the wires such as Lincoln and Middlesbrough. AIUI there shouldn't be many current services at all that get shortened, except perhaps at the extremities such as north of Edinburgh.

 

[43074]

On the EC routes, there are basically enough 9 car trains to replace the existing fleet, with the 5 cars providing all the significant extra capacity, and the ability to run services to places off the wires such as Lincoln and Middlesbrough. AIUI there shouldn't be many current services at all that get shortened, except perhaps at the extremities such as north of Edinburgh.

Even then most of the services North of Edinburgh warrant a full set anyway - certainly the Aberdeen & Inverness service/s are busy, not sure about the Glasgow but even if it were quieter I doubt there'd be much gain in splitting and joining for it anyway.

I could see the 5-cars being used in pairs to provide the peak London to West Yorkshire services, splitting at Leeds either to serve multiple destinations or to provide a shorter set for the last leg of the journey in West Yorks. I'd also suggest most of the off peak Lincolns will be suitable for single 5-car sets, the existing Newark services are very quiet and many of the shuttles between Newark and Lincoln can cope with a 153.

 

[D365]

I'd also suggest most of the off peak Lincolns will be suitable for single 5-car sets, the existing Newark services are very quiet and many of the shuttles between Newark and Lincoln can cope with a 153.

I think that's the general idea in any case.

 

[Master29]

Just out of curiosity. Are the 9 car 802`s going to be used on the GWR named trains. Royal Duchy, Cornish Riviera etc. I personally would think this likely but just to clarify? This may have been mentioned but I`m unable to find it.

 

[455driver]

Just out of curiosity. Are the 9 car 802`s going to be used on the GWR named trains. Royal Duchy, Cornish Riviera etc. I personally would think this likely but just to clarify? This may have been mentioned but I`m unable to find it.

Depens if they are booked for 9 or 10 coach formations.

I am sure people would rather have a 10 coach and get a seat than stand on a 9 coach.

 

[class26]

Even then most of the services North of Edinburgh warrant a full set anyway - certainly the Aberdeen & Inverness service/s are busy, not sure about the Glasgow but even if it were quieter I doubt there'd be much gain in splitting and joining for it anyway.

I could see the 5-cars being used in pairs to provide the peak London to West Yorkshire services, splitting at Leeds either to serve multiple destinations or to provide a shorter set for the last leg of the journey in West Yorks. I'd also suggest most of the off peak Lincolns will be suitable for single 5-car sets, the existing Newark services are very quiet and many of the shuttles between Newark and Lincoln can cope with a 153.

They can cope with a 153 because of lamentable connections at Newark so many simply drive to Newark to pick up the train. Hopefully that will change once there is a regular direct service from Lincoln

 

[The Ham]

I haven't been keeping up to date at all with this. The 5 car VTEC units, what routes are these planned to operate? VTEC 9 coaches now are often full and standing.

Although the 80x's only​ nearly provide enough 9 coach sets (43 Vs 47) there are two things that come into play.

First, there are more seats on the 80x's, something like 18% more than the HST's.

Second, although there are several 5 coach units these do not need to run as single units to cover the current timetable as there are 22 of them. Leaving if 8 of these tab paired up you would have your 47 full length trains to cover the current fleet. That leaves 14 of them to run extra services (either on their own or in pairs, but most likely doing both over a route).

That is before you consider the few (likely to be about 7 units) that will be still be run by Mark 4's hauled by 91's.

As such there is plenty of units to ensure that nearly every service or of London is full length (there could be some very early/very late services which could be shorter if capacity allows, which is why I'm not going to say that they all most definitely will be). Whilst still providing scope for more services.

All of which will mean that there will be more seats over more services for the vast majority of the day.

 

[sprinterguy]

380s, 700s now 800s. Can't remember other stock having so much trouble with commissioning.

Have there been many issues with commissioning the class 800 series trains? I haven't seen anything major reported: As far as I am aware, it looks as if the first trains are still likely to be accepted by the operator on schedule in around two months time as per the terms of the Great Western franchise agreement.

With regard to the class 380s, their teething troubles seemed somewhat less significant than those that plagued their, in some respects, forerunners the class 303s, which suffered from a spectacular series of transformer explosions in their first weeks of service that saw the whole fleet withdrawn from service!

Class 87s and 90s had a quick spin with half a dozen coaches in tow and they were into traffic the next day. Is this the result of buying 'foreign' or just over complicated electronically?

Class 87s and 90s were both fairly straightforward developments of existing traction and technology (The latter being developed as an evolution of the former, and the groundwork for thyristor control having been laid by 87101 some years previously), and even the early examples of class 90 underwent a period of pre-service testing of several months before examples of the class entered service.

Preliminary?

The first set arrived over two years ago last week.

Someone is paying a bomb for all this testing. The stuff has been built, so money has changed hands in the supply chain, but the trains still aren't earning.

While the class 800 series units are part of the same family of trains as the existing class 395, there's a lot of unproven features that need to be tested, key amongst these being the trains bi-mode capability of the trains and any potential electrical interference issues. Remember that the last national programme of new Intercity trains, the HST, undertook three years of testing from the release from works of a prototype train in June 1972 to it entering regular passenger service in May 1975 (Actually two and a half years of testing admittedly, as the train was the subject of a union dispute over double manning until December 1972), and over a year more until the first production train entered passenger service.

During the last major main line electrification project, of the ECML nearly thirty years ago, the first batch of ten class 91s also spent around twelve months undergoing testing between delivery of the first loco and the class entering passenger service.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Remember that the last national programme of new Intercity trains, the HST, undertook three years of testing from the release from works of a prototype train in June 1972 to it entering regular passenger service in May 1975 (Actually two and a half years of testing admittedly, as the train was the subject of a union dispute over double manning until December 1972), and over a year more until the first production train entered passenger service.

You forgot the Eurostar 373s, and the Pendolinos, both with Alstom electrics.
Both were a nightmare to clear on GB infrastructure, as was the Class 92, all because of electrical interference with our relay-based signalling.
323s were withdrawn completely when they couldn't handle frost/snow.
The first Electrostars suffered from interference problems as well.
Oddly the best EMU introduction was the Alstom Juniper series, but that was let down by build quality and reliability issues which cost Alstom their entire UK production base.
The early Desiros were very good (450/350), following the HEx units with the same electrics.
Going further back I'm sure the Networkers had a difficult start too, as the first EMUs with AC motors.

 

[Clarence Yard]

As far as I am aware, it looks as if the first trains are still likely to be accepted by the operator on schedule in around two months time.

Not a hope. The delays to getting the electrical test track going have seen to that. So, as per the contract, the contractual hand over dates have slipped accordingly.

Currently, the first two sets are due to be handed over to GWR on 15/09/17 with the first 4 (as 2 x 10 car sets) entering passenger service on 16/10/17.

 

[najaB]

Even then most of the services North of Edinburgh warrant a full set anyway - certainly the Aberdeen & Inverness service/s are busy, not sure about the Glasgow but even if it were quieter I doubt there'd be much gain in splitting and joining for it anyway.

The Inverness service tends to be busy, but Scotrail getting pocket HSTs may reduce the attractiveness of that particular service. My experience is that the Aberdeen trains are well used, but far from full. Again, with Scotrail providing more seats than they currently do it might be perfectly feasible for VTEC to run five cars between Aberdeen and Edinburgh and ten to London, which would (I think) provide more seats overall than running a nine-carriage set all the way.

 

[sprinterguy]

Not a hope. The delays to getting the electrical test track going have seen to that. So, as per the contract, the contractual hand over dates have slipped accordingly.

Currently, the first two sets are due to be handed over to GWR on 15/09/17 with the first 4 (as 2 x 10 car sets) entering passenger service on 16/10/17.

Ah, righto, there has been some delay then. Are the delays therefore largely related to infrastructure, rather than the performance of the trains themselves, though?

 

[Clarence Yard]

Ah, righto, there has been some delay then. Are the delays therefore largely related to infrastructure, rather than the performance of the trains themselves, though?

Infrastructure.

 

[snowball]

Infrastructure.

The late availability from NR of the electrified "test track" section has caused slippage to the acceptance schedule with no blame to Hitachi.

However the 800s do seem to be causing EM interference as now under discussion here:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=83452&page=319

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Infrastructure.

According to Roger Ford, Hitachi got a 104-day delay in acceptance because of the delay in availability to them of the Series 1 test section.
So that does not explicitly blame the functionality of the infrastructure, just the date it became available.
But I'm sure there will be more to it than that.

800s are apparently running in electric mode in normal traffic between Doncaster and Newcastle on the ECML, so the basic interface (Mk3b, 125mph, single pantograph) must be sound.

 

[najaB]

800s are apparently running in electric mode in normal traffic between Doncaster and Newcastle on the ECML, so the basic interface (Mk3b, 125mph, single pantograph) must be sound.

My understanding was that the interference issues were specifically related to the GWML electrification.

 

[hibtastic]

The Inverness service tends to be busy, but Scotrail getting pocket HSTs may reduce the attractiveness of that particular service. My experience is that the Aberdeen trains are well used, but far from full. Again, with Scotrail providing more seats than they currently do it might be perfectly feasible for VTEC to run five cars between Aberdeen and Edinburgh and ten to London, which would (I think) provide more seats overall than running a nine-carriage set all the way.

Could we see Aberdeen and Inverness services running together as 2x5 car as far as Edinburgh before splitting to head to each destination as 1x5 car?

 

[irish_rail]

Just out of curiosity. Are the 9 car 802`s going to be used on the GWR named trains. Royal Duchy, Cornish Riviera etc. I personally would think this likely but just to clarify? This may have been mentioned but I`m unable to find it.

I doubt it. Seems most PZ-PAdd services going to be 5 or 10 car meaning crampt condition on a 5 car, or on a ten car, double crews / half of train only, able to use restaraunt etc.
9 cars seem to be reserved mainly for Cotswold route , stoppers etc...
I think this obsession with portion working on the WofE route may come back to bite us on the arse, after all virgin crosscountry originally promised its Voyagers would generally operate in pairs! That lasted all of about a year!

 

[najaB]

I think this obsession with portion working on the WofE route may come back to bite us on the arse, after all virgin crosscountry originally promised its Voyagers would generally operate in pairs! That lasted all of about a year!

The difference being that in the case of Cross-Country they specified the size of the fleet (a pint) and then tried to stretch it to cover the diagrams (a gallon).

 

[Envoy]

The difference being that in the case of Cross-Country they specified the size of the fleet (a pint) and then tried to stretch it to cover the diagrams (a gallon).

Well Virgin’s so called ‘Operation Princess’ got it completely wrong. They failed to foresee the massive rise in passengers caused when the Voyager fleet started running. Now, I am wondering whether the GWR have also got things wrong? Why for example, are 9 coach trains planned for the north Cotswold line through to Worcester & Hereford? I would have thought that 5 coach trains would have been suitable with another 5 coaches being added at Oxford.

Assuming that loadings don’t quite match fleet orders/diagrams, would it be possible to add extra trailer coaches at a later date to say turn a 5 coach train into 6 or 7 cars? Likewise, 9 coach trains get lengthened? (That is assuming platform length is suitable or that money is spent on extensions).

 

[najaB]

Assuming that loadings don’t quite match fleet orders/diagrams, would it be possible to add extra trailer coaches at a later date to say turn a 5 coach train into 6 or 7 cars? Likewise, 9 coach trains get lengthened? (That is assuming platform length is suitable or that money is spent on extensions).

The 800 (and presumably the 802) design supports up to 12 carriages per set and the design is likely to be in production for quite a while, so other than finance there's no reason why additional carriages couldn't be added.