Saw a nine car Class 802 (802101) on test this morning - they will be operating WOE services soon. Get those HST's in while you can!
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GWR Class 800
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cactustwirly
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Agreed!
I can see the HST withdrawals picking up the pace in August.
We're coming to the end of the 'slow' stage.
But the poster was simply asking could it be worse? And the answer is yes it could be. What about Voyagers? Or 180s.
Mediocre is a matter of personal opinion anyway. How its measured is down to an individual opinion. The DFT won't call them medeocre. Local groups calling for timetable improvenents and new trains won't call them medeocre. And what if they turn out to be the most reliable trains miles per incident ever on the GWR? That won't be medeocre.
If it scores high on other factors but lower than a HST on vibration and seat firmness then that's only a couple of scores and it's the overall picture the DFT are probably looking at.
Most folk just appreciate new trains honestly and these are likely to tick most boxes for most customers imo.
If it allows for a strengthened timetable in due course, competitive journey times, free WiFi, better onboard infofmation, a nice new shiny environment and a fair size of legroom and a modern image I think most people will be very happy with that. With the exception of enthusiasts of which I am one but I still greatly appreciate these new trains.
I don't think many commuters will want to compare the vibration and harshness to a HST .it won't be a factor to them. And a family travelling at the weekend will probably be really impressed that the new fast train has just rolled in and they can get seats together and travel at speed.
To absolute experts they might be medeocre in their opinion (excluding DFT and Hitachi and leasing company) but you can only get the best you can specify and procure with the budget, requirements, standards, legislation and timeframes you have.
It's like when we were talking about family hatchbacks being medeocre to a Porsche. If the family hatchback fills the need and delivers the spec that was wanted by the buyer and was ordered then who's to call it medeocre just because it doesn't have full leather trim and electric roof? Motoring experts but those who ordered it may be completely happy with it.
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I like the trains and I've been on all the 5 cars except the first 4. However, many non enthusiast friends have only two things to say about them, "the seats are so uncomfortable" and "why can't i walk between the two halves of the train". Hopefully the 2x5 problem will start to reduce now the 9 cars are arriving and so i suspect the general public are going to be more disappointed with the seats than the vibration, the colour of the green stripe or anything else.
Incidentally i sat in the first pair of seats next to the luggage rack this morning and went to pull down the centre arm rest to find there isn't one. I then looked at the first row on the other side (the no window seat) and that doesn't have one either. This is a bit odd anyone know why?
Goldfish62
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Due to the door pockets reducing the interior width.
I agree with goldfish. It was stated we should have our cake and eat it basically. A 153 or a pacer aren`t even the same type of train so not a comparison at all. When the HST`s were introduced they were 35 mph faster in places than the class 52`s they were replacing. Bearing in mind the 800`s has been over 40 years in the making as a replacement, they are clearly a sideways step rather than a lurch forward. There was only 15 years between the HST and the 52`s incidently but wow what a leap. The 800`s are hardly big progress.
LNW-GW Joint
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We'll soon be able to compare 800s in electric mode with the class 397 CAF inter-city units for TPE, now under construction.
They will be limited to 110mph on the WCML, but could operate at 125mph on the ECML/GWML.
Class 444/350 at 110mph max are hardly a relevant comparison with 125mph 800s.
Desiro stability at speed is by no means perfect, even if their comfort level is superior to 800s.
They will be limited to 110mph on the WCML, but could operate at 125mph on the ECML/GWML.
Class 444/350 at 110mph max are hardly a relevant comparison with 125mph 800s.
Desiro stability at speed is by no means perfect, even if their comfort level is superior to 800s.
TractiveEffort
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Its hardly the 800’s fault that they cannot travel at faster than the 125 line speed, albeit they could increase top speed if the line speed were raised.
I’m fairly convinced that the 800’s haven’t been in development for 40 years.....
How much progress can you make? Dual power capability, AC motors, canbus systems, TMS, etc etc. It was never going to be futuristic, the spec and the budget didn’t ask or allow for that.
D365
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That in itself is revolution enough. At this point it might be worth recalling British Rail's attempt, in the form of the HST's arch-nemesis.
OK bad wording there. By 40+ years in the making I meant 40+ years advancement rather than a 40 year development.
I also said hardly big progress and I think that`s a fair assessment in a nation that has had years of underdevelopment nationally.
TwistedMentat
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The lack of speed is hardly the fault of the Class 800. UK regulations don't allow it to go any faster without in cab signalling. And while it's all equipped for that, it still needs to wait for the trackside work to be complete. Whenever that happens to be.
Again though, define your terms of measurement.
Here's some thoughts:
I'd suggest technology wise, they're a huge step forward. The new trains are more electrics and computers rather than mechanics and skimpy bits of wire.
Do they hold more people than an HST? If so, that's progress too.
If they're more reliable (and that's likely), there's another huge improvement.
Easier / quicker to tank / fill with fuel? Yet another improvement over the old.
Not every single part of a new train will be improved from everyones point of view.
The only things I've read about it ride quality, seats and lighting. Three small things in the grand scheme of a whole train.
What sort of huge step forward are you expecting in a new train?
I think they are very nice trains other than for the ridiculously hard seats.
Usually I dislike engines under the floor but really you can barely notice them when stood at a station and can't notice them at all once moving faster than about 30mph.
Put in proper comfy seats suitable for long distance travel, and perhaps a buffet car and they would be hard to better.
Usually I dislike engines under the floor but really you can barely notice them when stood at a station and can't notice them at all once moving faster than about 30mph.
Put in proper comfy seats suitable for long distance travel, and perhaps a buffet car and they would be hard to better.
Envoy
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“Whenever that happens to be”? Makes me wonder why that has not been done as of now and how many years will it be until they can do 140mph on the faster sections of track?
TwistedMentat
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Cost and time most likely. And the first section would be Didcot to Paddington I imagine.
It will be if and when the DfT decides it wants to pay for it - and when ETCS is installed on the Great Western Main Line to provide in-cab signalling for IETs.
Or would you have preferred Network Rail to try to install and commission ETCS at the same time as the electrification work?
We all know how well the electrification project has gone...
Dai Corner
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How much difference would it make to end-to-end times?
100 miles at 90mph would take about 67 mins (Westerns)
100 miles at 125mph would take 48 mins (HST/IET under conventional signalling)
100 miles at 140mph would take about 43 mins (IET under ECTS)
I'm not convinced the time saving would justify the cost. It certainly wouldn't be the step change the HSTs brought.
These are 3 HUGE things from a passenger's perspective, probably the most important things there are. Passengers do not care about computers and fuelling and all the rest of it. They want a train that provides a comfortable seat in a pleasant environment that gets them there as quickly as possible. Basic really.
It also happens to be what the HSTs provided when new and still make a pretty good fist of doing 40 years later.
TwistedMentat
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ETCS should also help squeeze even more trains on. The speed will be a nice to have and help stuff like recovery. The bigger change will be upping the average speed. This has been already noted with the improved acceleration under wires allowing the 800s to essentially meet the original HST timings between Reading and Paddington with all the extra safety stuff and speed restrictions that have been added.
Comfort is only up to a certain point. Otherwise Ryanair and EasyJet would look very different. Speed, reliability, and price is what the general travelling public care about. These are things the 800s will help deliver.
Dai Corner
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I'd add frequency to that. Bristol - Paddington will be doubled to an outer-suburban-like four trains an hour.
The 800`s aren`t a bad train as such and as pointed out the poor infrastructure they have to work around won`t allow them any greater speeds. I think my point should have been not directed solely at the 800 but rather the whole package.
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800308 was out and about on Tuesday on a test run from North Pole depot to Gloucester and back. Picture by Martin Loader.
http://hondawanderer.com/800308_Oaksey_2018.htm
http://hondawanderer.com/800308_Oaksey_2018.htm
The 397 may have the advantage plug doors so hopefully no totally windowless seats or seats with without armrests, but otherwise I expect they will much of a muchness and from what we have seen with the Loco Hauled sets they are likely to have similar uncomfortable seats.
Travelled on 800304 today on 1C03 the 07:00 padd to Bristol first time I've seen a 9 car it had me in the wrong position on the platform! Was very full at the back close to first class which was empty. Otherwise identical to 5 cars except this actually smelt of new paint, I assume the 800/0 are vinyles rather than paint. This actually looked shiny compared to the 5 cars.
Buit ETCS has apparently been abandoned on the GWML (at least for the time beinmg). It should have been implemented by the end of the year to replace GW-APT ?
Is that the case? I was of the understanding that the first deployment on a mainline was the ECML between Kings Cross and Hitchin.
43096
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Correct - the 5-car sets are vinyl. Very obvious in places as you can see the white paint underneath e.g. around the cab doors.
Abandoned? Then please explain why, according to the current issue of Modern Railways, Porterbrook has just agreed a contract with Siemens to fit the GWR 387s with ETCS equipment. First train not due to be equipped until early 2020 but I don't think anyone would bother agreeing to spend money on such a project if GMWL ETCS had been abandoned.
The IETs are already ready for ETCS.
The Heathrow Branch is moving to ETCS, and it doesn't have TPWS, so stock has to either be ATP fitted or ETCS fitted. When the Class 332s go, they're being replaced by 387s, and they're never going to be fitted with ATP.
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