History of services from Euston to Manchester - routings

[Merle Haggard]

Sorry, but yes I fear. I’ve just downloaded it and viewed it on a completely different computer.

Thanks, I blame Apple then!. Curiously, 'views' has remained at 1

 

[gaillark]

Tickets from Manchester to London in BR days were also valid with no excess to:
London St. Pancras via Sheffield. (also when direct route was available via Matlock) and also valid via Hope Valley which had through trains.
London Paddington/Marylebone via Birmingham and Banbury (which I believe is still a valid route today).

Also remember the fairly recent West Coast modernisation Project Rio that had hourly direct services from Manchester to St. Pancras.

 

[jfollows]

Tickets from Manchester to London in BR days were also valid with no excess to:
London St. Pancras via Sheffield. (also when direct route was available via Matlock) and also valid via Hope Valley which had through trains.
London Paddington/Marylebone via Birmingham and Banbury (which I believe is still a valid route today).

Also remember the fairly recent West Coast modernisation Project Rio that had hourly direct services from Manchester to St. Pancras.

London-Manchester via Sheffield and Hope Valley remains a valid route for an "any permitted" ticket, as well as the other routes you mention.
Permitted routes are shown by maps:

• GC + BM
• GC + BM + NR
• MA
• MA + NR
• PR (this one is Saint Pancras)
• RG + RM
• RG + RM + NR

at https://data.atoc.org/routeing-maps

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

For example, has there ever been a direct Manchester - London Marylebone service?

There certainly was a sleeper service Manchester-GC-Marylebone throughout the LMR electrification period, nominally non-stop.
I used it once northbound c1963, it changed from steam to Class 40 at Nottingham Victoria for the run over Woodhead.
Up to the late 50s there were several through Manchester-GC-Marylebone services.
There were also some portions starting from Liverpool Central running via Northenden, but these tended to join the Midland route services to St Pancras.

Another odd-ball route I used at that time was the 1700 Manchester Central-St Pancras service on Sundays, which was nominally non-stop to Leicester via Matlock.
It used to avoid Derby on the Chaddesden sidings route, except on one occasion when it was diverted through Derby and then via Melbourne to Sheet Stores and back to the main line.
This train used to go on full power (Peak diesel) from around Didsbury to the summit at Peak Forest, and then coast all the way down to Belper before needing power again.

 

[70014IronDuke]

here certainly was a sleeper service Manchester-GC-Marylebone throughout the LMR electrification period, nominally non-stop.
I used it once northbound c1963, it changed from steam to Class 40 at Nottingham Victoria for the run over Woodhead.

There were half a dozen Scots allocated to Annesley in 62 or 63 for services like this, as I understand it.

...
Another odd-ball route I used at that time was the 1700 Manchester Central-St Pancras service on Sundays, which was nominally non-stop to Leicester via Matlock.
It used to avoid Derby on the Chaddesden sidings route,

I know the Midland Pullman avoided Derby via Chad, but I've not heard of a regular service doing this.

except on one occasion when it was diverted through Derby and then via Melbourne to Sheet Stores and back to the main line.
This train used to go on full power (Peak diesel) from around Didsbury to the summit at Peak Forest, and then coast all the way down to Belper before needing power again.

No slowing for PSRs at Chinley or elsewhere?

 

[jfollows]

I know the Midland Pullman avoided Derby via Chad, but I've not heard of a regular service doing this.

1C48, 5pm Sunday Manchester Central, pass Chaddesden South Junction 18/29 (in today's language, 6/29pm in the timetable I have), 19:01-19:06 in Leicester. 1C58 5.30pm from Manchester Central followed it and called at Chinley, Millers Dale, Matlock, Derby, Loughborough & Leicester (and it was also preceded by 1C46 4.25 departure with much the same stopping pattern as 1C58 which got to Derby at 6.2pm). Same 9/9/63-14/6/64 timetable as earlier.

 

[Springs Branch]

. . . For example, has there ever been a direct Manchester - London Marylebone service?

There had always been a number of through trains each day between Manchester in Marylebone in Great Central & LNER days. Before the InterCity services were concentrated on the Euston - Piccadilly route post-electrification, the London Midland Region's public timetable books included summary pages showing the full selection of trains available between different Manchester (and Liverpool) stations and the various London termini.

The attached scans show the summary pages from a 1949/50 LMR timetable, including daytime and overnight through trains between Marylebone & Manchester London Rd. (& Central). The daytime trains included restaurant cars.

Dep. Marylebone - (arr. London Rd):-
10:00 - (15:20)
12:15 - (17:48)
15:20 - (20:48)
22:00 SX - (04:12 MX)
22:45 SO - (04:25 Su)

Dep. London Rd - (arr. Marylebone):-
08:25 - (13:56)
11:30 - (16:25)
15:50 - (21:34)
22:35* - (05:10)

* Departed from Manchester Central. Train started from Liverpool Central at 21:30

A similar number of through trains ran on Sundays but at different times. Being immediately after nationalisation and in the WW2 recovery period, these were probably not dissimilar to service levels from the Big Four era.

What other London stations have had direct services to/from Manchester Piccadilly or Manchester Victoria in recent (or not so recent) years?

@jfollows's post of the 1963 Woodhead WTT - showing the 3M14 Oldham Glodwick Rd to Marylebone Parcels, in addition to 1M51 - reminded me of a couple of short-lived oddities and another potential London Terminal 'cop' (provided we're allowed to stretch the scope to long-distance parcels trains).

In the early 1970s there were regular overnight parcels trains from Manchester Mayfield to London Liverpool Street.

• 1971/72: 4E00 22:10 Parcels Manchester Mayfield - London Liverpool St
• 1972/73: 3E00 22:10 Parcels Manchester Mayfield - London Liverpool St
• 1973/74: 3E00 22:10 Parcels Manchester Mayfield - London Liverpool St

These ran via Woodhead; diesel haulage from Mayfield to Guide Bridge Avenue Sidings, electric forward from there. I'm not sure of the subsequent route through the East Midlands.

In May 1974 the train became 3E22 22:07 Parcels Manchester Mayfield - Ipswich, no longer going all the way to Liverpool Street, but still via Woodhead with change to DC electric at Guide Bridge.
This train may well have run to Liverpool Street before 1971 as well - I'm missing the earlier timetables.
A scan of the 1973/74 WTT between Manchester & Woodhead is attached.

For a year or so, around 1976-77, the origin of the nightly Liverpool Street Parcels changed to Bolton.
This was 3E13 19:57 Bolton - Liverpool St., running via Manchester Vic, Ashton Moss & Crowthorne Jns. to Guide Bridge, then an electric loco for haulage over Woodhead.

In the late 1970s the train from Bolton seemed to get truncated at either Peterborough or Cambridge.
I've seen no evidence of any return parcels workings from Liverpool Street to the north-west.


(Post edited to include details of services ex Mayfield)

 

[70014IronDuke]

1C48, 5pm Sunday Manchester Central, pass Chaddesden South Junction 18/29 (in today's language, 6/29pm in the timetable I have), 19:01-19:06 in Leicester. 1C58 5.30pm from Manchester Central followed it and called at Chinley, Millers Dale, Matlock, Derby, Loughborough & Leicester (and it was also preceded by 1C46 4.25 departure with much the same stopping pattern as 1C58 which got to Derby at 6.2pm). Same 9/9/63-14/6/64 timetable as earlier.

Interesting. Thanks for the enlightenment.