Holyhead/Llandudno/Bangor Avanti West Coast

[L401CJF]

Not the shuttles, the Chester-Eustons that don't start at Holyhead (and vice versa). The shuttles are useful, though I'd rather see a better pattern to Crewe.

Oh sorry I see which shorts you mean now! To be honest I forgot they existed!

The Chester-Crewe shuttles are useful to a point, but a bit overkill using a 5car train. They would be a lot more useful if they didn't have gaps, im sure one leaves Crewe at 1450 then not again until 1650 or something like that which is a bit of a drag if youve just missed the TfW shuttle

 

[craigybagel]

That is not quite true in the new timetable.

The key daytime sailings for both Stena and Irish Ferries have Avanti connections:

The 14:05 Irish Ferries Ulysses sailing from Holyhead to Dublin connects out of the 09:10 Euston-Holyhead, and the 14:45 Stena Adventurer sailing from Holyhead to Dublin connects out of the new 10:10 Euston-Holyhead service.

The 08:05 Irish Ferries Ulysses sailing from Dublin to Holyhead and the 08:15 Stena Adventurer sailing from Dublin both connect into the 12:53 Holyhead-Crewe and onward to London.

The overnight market, using the sailings currently operated by those two ships died years ago, slain by the arrival of Ryanair. That market is frankly dead as a dodo and is unlikely to return.

There is a market for Sail/Rail but it is more focussed on those key daytime sailings.

The other Irish Ferries sailings operated by the Epsilon doesn't take foot passengers, so they can be eliminated from the list.

The overnight Stena Estrid sailing from Dublin at 02:15 does not have a bus connection into it at Dublin Port, but does connect into the 06:55 Avanti service to Crewe, and the 09:00 sailing to Dublin connects out of the 06:25 Avanti service from Crewe.

The afternoon 14:45 Stena Estrid sailing from Dublin is one of the few that has a TfW connection, but that has an Avanti service behind it from Bangor onwards to Crewe, and while the 20:30 sailing to Dublin connects out of the 15:06 TfW service from Birmingham International, that sailing has no public transport connections at Dublin port arriving there around midnight, which makes it rather unattractive.

The Irish Ferries SWIFT sailings do all connect into/out of TfW services, although one of those is operated by a Mark 4 set.


Just to be clear the new timetable has four workings across the North Wales coast to London Euston:

04:48 Holyhead-Euston
05:51 Holyhead-Euston
13:57 Holyhead-Euston
14:50 Holyhead-Euston

There are a further three services from Holyhead to Crewe, and one from Bangor to Crewe.

It has five in the opposite direction:

09:10 Euston-Holyhead
10:10 Euston-Holyhead
16:10 Euston-Bangor
18:10 Euston-Holyhead
19:10 Euston-Holyhead

There are a further two services from Crewe to Holyhead.

Nice to see some actual well set out facts cutting through the hyperbole for a change!

The North Wales Coast timetable is an utter mess, and a recast would certainly benefit it, not just for this reason!

That's a fair point! Hopefully the big TfW recast will tidy things up nicely - and hopefully by then Avanti will have a service level closer to the one they originally promised. They've got a driver's depot at Holyhead now which should cut some of the costs of running to North Wales which should please the DfT at least ....

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The early Holyhead-Euston is back from May 15 (0625 from Chester).
Currently it starts from Crewe as a 10-car, but one set will start from Holyhead from May.
This is the train which pre-covid gained its 2nd portion from a Blackpool-Crewe Voyager, which is not reinstated.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

Nice to see some actual well set out facts cutting through the hyperbole for a change!


That's a fair point! Hopefully the big TfW recast will tidy things up nicely - and hopefully by then Avanti will have a service level closer to the one they originally promised. They've got a driver's depot at Holyhead now which should cut some of the costs of running to North Wales which should please the DfT at least ....

When did this happen and where did they get the drivers from? I didn't see any vacancies for drivers at Holyhead?

 

[wobman]

When did this happen and where did they get the drivers from? I didn't see any vacancies for drivers at Holyhead?

It's was advertised ages ago, it was part of the avanti franchise agreement. The drivers are out road learning now, I think its a depot of 12 drivers based at Holyhead.

 

[craigybagel]

When did this happen and where did they get the drivers from? I didn't see any vacancies for drivers at Holyhead?

They did advertise. Some transferred over from TfW at Holyhead, plus they had some internal transfers from other depots. It's been planned for years but it finally opened in 2021.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

They did advertise. Some transferred over from TfW at Holyhead, plus they had some internal transfers from other depots. It's been planned for years but it finally opened in 2021.

Missed that, thanks for the info.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Is it 221142/143 that are going off-lease?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The North Wales Coast timetable is an utter mess, and a recast would certainly benefit it, not just for this reason!

I don’t know if it’s been mentioned but also on Sundays, the rough hourly to two-hourly service was always combined from Avanti through services to London and TfW to Crewe filling in the gaps. I remember there was something like 0700, 0800, 0900, 1100 to London, 1200 to Crewe, 1300 to London, and then every two hours to Crewe after that.

Only running the TfW service in the hours the Avanti didn’t (with gaps) means when Avanti is stuffed you have barely any service in North Wales at all.

 

[BeijingDave]

Direct trains to Walsall seem to have been kicked to the curb as well.

With respect though, people in Walsall have loads of nearby alternative stations (within driving distance) and useful connections for London.

For someone in Prestatyn, for example, it may be a change at Chester and Crewe, or an out of the way route changing at Warrington Bank Quay.

 

[Bletchleyite]

With respect though, people in Walsall have loads of nearby alternative stations (within driving distance) and useful connections for London.

For someone in Prestatyn, for example, it may be a change at Chester and Crewe, or an out of the way route changing at Warrington Bank Quay.

Potentially just as importantly North Wales is a major tourist destination from all over the country. I don't think the Walsall Tourist Board is likely very busy.

 

[43055]

A glance at Realtime Trains indicates that it runs ECS to Chester. From what I can tell, it couples there to a service from London, and they return together to Euston to form the 1710 departure.

Ah. I wonder why is returns empty rather than in service.

 

[dk1]

Ah. I wonder why is returns empty rather than in service.

Could it be that no train manager is booked?

 

[krus_aragon]

At the timetable there will be more services through to Euston with less Chester shuttles. Weekdays it will be 5 services all running through to Holyhead (2 morning, 3 evening from London). Saturdays has 5 again but 3 only go as far as Chester and Sundays look to be back to the old timetable. Interestingly there is also a new 1148 Crewe to Llandudno Junction but no return on Saturdays.

A glance at Realtime Trains indicates that it runs ECS to Chester. From what I can tell, it couples there to a service from London, and they return together to Euston to form the 1710 departure.

Looking at National Rail Timetable chart 077 (which goes through to December, rather than the beginning of September, as the Avanti pocket timetables do), there are more changes afoot.

From the 12th of September, an hourly service from London to Chester Mon-Fri is shown throughout the day from 08:10 to 19:10 (except the 15:10 departure from Euston?), with seven of them continuing to Bangor or Holyhead. That's on top of the early morning Birmingham-Holyhead and the late night Bangor-Crewe services.

Curiously, the workings in the other direction are unbalanced: There are departures from Chester for Euston shown at 0626, 0735, 0835, 1035, 1435, 1536, and 1635. The fact that all of these start back from Holyhead suggests to me that Network Rail / Avanti haven't finalised the intervening Chester-London services yet.

The mystery 1148 Crewe to Llandudno Jn on Saturdays becomes a 1010 Euston to Llandudno Jn from September, but there's still no public working of the return service. There are a few other tweaks to the Saturday service, but nothing differs on the Sunday.

 

[BeccaOnATrain]

I have nothing to add to this other than I am currently on a TFW Mark 4 coach to Holyhead.
Though I did see lots of Avanti Voyagers today, not seen them before!
They're getting 807s guess they're more than capable of doing Holyhead//Llandudno <> Euston services.

 

[Runningaround]

Let's face it with circa 200k entries and exits a year the only reason that Holyhead still has any intercity type services is the politics associated with the Irish ferry. If it was a service based purely on commercial grounds it would be an all stations dmu shuttle to Bangor or Llandudno at best.

If it was anything to do with politics they'd have 11 car loco hauled sets every hour.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I have nothing to add to this other than I am currently on a TFW Mark 4 coach to Holyhead.
Though I did see lots of Avanti Voyagers today, not seen them before!
They're getting 807s guess they're more than capable of doing Holyhead//Llandudno <> Euston services.

They will be 805s off the wires in North Wales (5-car bi-modes) and to Shrewsbury.
We still don't know how fast they will be south of Crewe (they are non-tilt trains and currently limited to 110mph, unlike the tilting Voyager's 125).
7-car 807s are all-electric and will serve Liverpool etc.

 

[Parham Wood]

Isn't the North Wales coast service more orientated to connecting North to South Wales rather than to London?

 

[BeijingDave]

Isn't the North Wales coast service more orientated to connecting North to South Wales rather than to London?

In recent years, yes, and that is definitely political.

Being from Chester, and knowing many people just over the border, people from Flintshire are much more interested in Liverpool, Manchester and London connectivity than Cardiff.

 

[mmh]

Isn't the North Wales coast service more orientated to connecting North to South Wales rather than to London?

In TFW and the Welsh Government's mind, yes. In the reality of where people travel, no. Most North Walians never travel to South Wales and vice versa. A token service of a couple of trains a day would be fine (along with extras on football/rugby Internationals, which is the only time there is significant North-South travel. They didn't bother to do anything last time though, the next day was horrendous.)

 

[wobman]

Isn't the North Wales coast service more orientated to connecting North to South Wales rather than to London?

The avanti west coast franchise is for connectivity with London, tfw the wales and borders franchise is about North to South Wales connectivity.

 

[Runningaround]

Isn't the North Wales coast service more orientated to connecting North to South Wales rather than to London?

No chance, it's West to East in Wales and then onto London. North to South to Mid, even the roads don't bother with it much.

 

[mmh]

No chance, it's West to East in Wales and then onto London. North to South to Mid, even the roads don't bother with it much.

There may be a reason for that. Sigh. And I can assure you that the primary destinations once people navigate their way outside are not London. It is not Wales's Rome.

 

[Boodiggy]

They will be 805s off the wires in North Wales (5-car bi-modes) and to Shrewsbury.
We still don't know how fast they will be south of Crewe (they are non-tilt trains and currently limited to 110mph, unlike the tilting Voyager's 125).
7-car 807s are all-electric and will serve Liverpool etc.

They will run above 110mph when the MU speeds are implemented - stage 1 Euston - Weaver Jn.

 

[cle]

I've used these plenty in my time, to Chester mostly but also further along the Coast - both have been busy. Historically it was a slower service, many changes at Crewe - but Virgin built the market and it saw growth. Seems a shame to move away from that now, and it was an extra Crewe fast, a MK-Crewe link etc.

Chester is a great little city, underrated/unknown in the south but a veritable Bath-type away day for the North and for North Wales. There is a good amount of business there too, and it's a hub for a whole region. Obviously a reasonably sized and interesting rail hub too - and in recent years with Liverpool via Halton, extras to Stockport, the Leeds service - it has seen growth in services. Those were slated to continue with the Liverpool Halton extensions too.

 

[mmh]

They will run above 110mph when the MU speeds are implemented - stage 1 Euston - Weaver Jn.

I predict this won't happen. Why? There's been lots of nudge-nudge, I know it is, talk on here over the last couple of years. But not a single publicly available confirmation of the work. Why not?

 

[Runningaround]

There may be a reason for that. Sigh. And I can assure you that the primary destinations once people navigate their way outside are not London. It is not Wales's Rome.

I'd say a large number with luggage heading east are going onto London, it's just as easy to get to as Cardiff which is catching up due to its nightlife and Government departments. Saying that though traffic from Cardiff to North Wales for leisure is growing significantly and looks to be outpacing the proposed capacity increase for weekends and holidays.

 

[Bruce Hughes]

Where Virgin/Avanti services have grown is its cheaper return option tickets Holyhead/Bangor/Junction tickets to Manchester Piccadilly is a lot cheaper than TFW especially on the day ticket. Its 15/20 minute wait either side is more appealing to change at Crewe rather than Chester and from experience better to get a seat at Crewe. For anyone trying to board a train from Chester along the North Wales coast to get a seat especially afternoon and early evening its a fight to get a seat. Hopefully with the new timetable with more services that will stop.

 

[wobman]

Where Virgin/Avanti services have grown is its cheaper return option tickets Holyhead/Bangor/Junction tickets to Manchester Piccadilly is a lot cheaper than TFW especially on the day ticket. Its 15/20 minute wait either side is more appealing to change at Crewe rather than Chester and from experience better to get a seat at Crewe. For anyone trying to board a train from Chester along the North Wales coast to get a seat especially afternoon and early evening its a fight to get a seat. Hopefully with the new timetable with more services that will stop.

Tfw are going to return to pre pandemic services such as the Llandudno to Manchester Airport route with no change, there will be more frequency apparently according to the Tfw site.
The route Llandudno to Manchester Piccadilly is quicker using the Tfw service as its direct unlike the far less frequent Avanti were you have to change at crewe.
Also the Avanti services don't stop at all the main stations along the N Wales coast.

 

[The Prisoner]

I find it bizarre that the 0935 Chester - Euston isn't coming back in the next uplift in services in May. This service was often full and standing on departure as the first off-peak direct train of the day. Probably haven't brought it back yet for exactly that reason (off peak).

When I contacted Avanti about the utterly dire Chester and North Wales provision they said the demand wasn't there. I pointed out that as there are no advance or standard premium tickets currently available from Chester and the coast it was forcing people to split their ticketing, so consequently they wouldn't genuinely know what flows looked like as people can only currently book the base range of tickets from those stations.

Oh for an open access operator for the WCML.