Horrendous Hull Trains East Coast ride

[ricoblade]

Morning All,

I’m on the 07:41 Hull Trains Paragon service from Retford to London and the ride south of Grantham has been horrendous.

Sections of severe rattling side to side, I’ve never experienced anything like it in 25 years on this line.

Is this a known issue as I’ve not seen anything.

 

[RailWonderer]

Nope, all IETs have lightweight 'cheap' bogies and ride poorly. A Meridian, Voyager, Pendolino, MK3 or 4, are all superior riding, undeniably. When the DfT procured a once in a generation fleet of trains you would think they would have valued ride quality but it was all about being cheap.

 

[whoosh]

A Meridian is NOT "superior riding". I drove them for quite a few years, and the suspension used to bottom out (hit it's limits) on a regular basis.

 

[Western Sunset]

For a really "lively" ride, the old AM4 units bouncing along the Trent Valley took some beating. Only time I wondered if we'd actually get to our destination still on the rails...

 

[38Cto15E]

If the IET trains are rough riding, does this mean that when EMR go electric, my ride to St Pancras will be more lively.

 

[CarrotPie]

If the IET trains are rough riding, does this mean that when EMR go electric, my ride to St Pancras will be more lively?

The 810s are quite different to the other 80xs.

 

[bib]

Well there was something in the train spec, although what a 'mean ride index' of 1.6 means in real life I dont know

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a79b82e40f0b63d72fc7f58/tts-redacted.pdf

3.15 Ride TS425 The ride comfort of the IEP Vehicles shall be assessed in accordance with DD ENV 12299:1999 ‘Railway Applications – Ride Comfort for Passengers – Measurement and Evaluation’. For each measuring location (which may be at any point along the saloon) within the saloon, the arithmetic mean of all Ride Indices (as defined in DD ENV 12299:1999 ‘Railway Applications – Ride Comfort for Passengers – Measurement and Evaluation’) taken at that point when operating at maximum line speed in both the Tare Condition and the Fully D Seated Condition must be:
• Less than 1.6 when measured on the East Coast Main Line over track with characteristics equivalent to those defined by the East Coast Main Line Track Data
• Less than 1.9 when a simulation is performed, using a dynamic model of the train validated through testing on the East Coast Main Line, of an IEP Unit on track with characteristics as defined by the Midland Main Line Track Data

 

[Towers]

The 810s are quite different to the other 80xs.

Interesting; can you expland on how?

Morning All,

I’m on the 07:41 Hull Trains Paragon service from Retford to London and the ride south of Grantham has been horrendous.

Sections of severe rattling side to side, I’ve never experienced anything like it in 25 years on this line.

Is this a known issue as I’ve not seen anything.

Welcome to the next 25 years of UK intercity travel!

 

[Sun Chariot]

For a really "lively" ride, the old AM4 units bouncing along the Trent Valley took some beating. Only time I wondered if we'd actually get to our destination still on the rails...

Back in '89 I was physically "bounced" out from my seat, on a 504 Man Vic-Bury. I can't recall where exactly; but it had been lively the entire way.

So much for Gresley-derived double bolster's riding quality...

 

[DelW]

Morning All,

I’m on the 07:41 Hull Trains Paragon service from Retford to London and the ride south of Grantham has been horrendous.

Sections of severe rattling side to side, I’ve never experienced anything like it in 25 years on this line.

Is this a known issue as I’ve not seen anything.

I've experienced similar on GWR class 80x - most of the time they're okay, but certain track conditions (and possibly certain speeds) set up severe lateral shaking, accompanied by bangs and crashes. It's quite concerning at its worst.

There have been various threads discussing this in the context of the GWR fleet, though I don't recall previous mention of it affecting Hull Trains services.

 

[CarrotPie]

Interesting; can you expand on how?

They're shorter, have a re-designed front end and more diesel power. They're different enough that they can't "piggyback" on the acceptance of the other 80x fleets and have to go through the acceptance process anew.

 

[mike57]

I can remember the ECML around Peterborough being lively in HST days.

Thinking back over recent trips down the ECML I dont think things are any worse than they ever have been, maybe one unit has a problem?

 

[DarloRich]

it it the track, the bogie or a bit of both that are the problem?

 

[hexagon789]

it it the track, the bogie or a bit of both that are the problem?

Both. As a retired BR engineer told me: the track on mainlines in general isn't maintained to the same level as under BR. Its safe but not to the same standard.

Secondary lines are usually higher standard than in BR days though, so swings and roundabouts.

The newer trains can't handle irregularities as well, but Mk4s are also lively on rougher track and curves with high cant deficiency.

The BT10s on Mk3s, while not themselves absolutely perfect, were quite soft so absorbed track irregularities better than modern bogies.

 

[Horizon22]

I've experienced similar on GWR class 80x - most of the time they're okay, but certain track conditions (and possibly certain speeds) set up severe lateral shaking, accompanied by bangs and crashes. It's quite concerning at its worst.

There have been various threads discussing this in the context of the GWR fleet, though I don't recall previous mention of it affecting Hull Trains services.

In my experience it’s very lively around Hayes and West Drayton particularly, possibly because that’s an intensively used section of track. A few parts between Didcot - Swindon too are rather shaky.

 

[uglymonkey]

I've experienced similar on GWR class 80x - most of the time they're okay, but certain track conditions (and possibly certain speeds) set up severe lateral shaking, accompanied by bangs and crashes. It's quite concerning at its worst.

There have been various threads discussing this in the context of the GWR fleet, though I don't recall previous mention of it affecting Hull Trains services.

I have as well, thumps bangs ( metal on metal) and sudden severe sideway lurches, which feels like your hip bones just dislodged, as your hips go one way against your body. Added to the ironing board seats, its not nice.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Crikey, I thought riding Pendolinos, some 20 years ago, was uncomfortable enough - but, based on this thread, it is even worse on the newer stock. I'll stick to my car....

 

[hexagon789]

Crikey, I thought riding Pendolinos, some 20 years ago, was uncomfortable enough - but, based on this thread, it is even worse on the newer stock. I'll stick to my car....

Pendolinos ride quite well in my experience, just the tilting actuation can be lively if in the leading car.

I would rate 390s higher than some Mk3 HST trailers after various TOCs sourced different bogie dampers to the originals, meaning the ride deteriorated a bit on some sets compared to under BR. (EC/XC sets iirc, but not FGW).

 

[londonmidland]

Pendolino’s are one of the smoothest riding trains in my opinion. Smooth ride, smooth acceleration and braking.

A world of difference compared to a Class 80x.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Pendolino’s are one of the smoothest riding trains in my opinion. Smooth ride, smooth acceleration and braking.

A world of difference compared to a Class 80x.

The Pendos I took weekly, 2005-2008, had a tendency to shudder as they moved off from standstill, to c. 20 mph. Every time.

 

[AJG3]

Morning All,

I’m on the 07:41 Hull Trains Paragon service from Retford to London and the ride south of Grantham has been horrendous.

Sections of severe rattling side to side, I’ve never experienced anything like it in 25 years on this line.

Is this a known issue as I’ve not seen anything.

I had the same on a Hull Trains Paragon northbound from KGX to Hull. Returned on a Hull Trains Paragon via the MML to STP on the recent diversions and found the ride quality better in general on the MML than ECML

 

[DelW]

In my experience it’s very lively around Hayes and West Drayton particularly, possibly because that’s an intensively used section of track. A few parts between Didcot - Swindon too are rather shaky.

I can remember twice suffering it quite severely around Didcot, though other journeys though the same section have been okay. That's one reason I wondered if it might be worse at certain speeds, maybe a harmonic interaction between track and suspension? On one occasion the gaps between seat frames and bodyside were visibly opening and closing by what looked like a couple of inches as the coach shook from side to side.

 

[class26]

it it the track, the bogie or a bit of both that are the problem?

If it is immediately south of Peterborough and before Huntingdon that stretch is always a bit wobbly as the ground is unstable. Speed is also restricted for a few miles presumably for this reason ?

 

[Grumpy]

I'lll take a B4 (or better still, a B5) bogie every time .

It's a shame that the bogies on some of the recently scrapped BR designed EMU'S (eg 365,312) couldn't have been refurbished and put under CAF units.

I'm sure Wells Fargo coaches must have ridden better than CAF

 

[CarrotPie]

It's a shame that the bogies on some of the recently scrapped BR designed EMU'S (eg 365,312) couldn't have been refurbished and put under CAF units.

I'm sure Wells Fargo coaches must have ridden better than CAF

Everything rides better than a CAF unit. I like this quote from Modern Railways:

CAF DMUs are comparable - but only to a horse and trap.

 

[mike57]

What confuses me about all this, we had a good design in the 70s with Mk3s, 125 capable, etc, not perfect but overall a good experience and we seem to have gone backwards since then in all ways, comfort, seats, ride etc. I understand that Mk3s had to be retired, but surely once learnt the design lessons should remain in place and carried forward into new designs.

 

[Starmill]

What confuses me about all this, we had a good design in the 70s with Mk3s, 125 capable, etc, not perfect but overall a good experience and we seem to have gone backwards since then in all ways, comfort, seats, ride etc. I understand that Mk3s had to be retired, but surely once learnt the design lessons should remain in place and carried forward into new designs.

Mark 4 ride is hardly excellent either, and yet over the same stretches they seem to ride with much, much less wheel noise, lateral hunting, and high-frequency vibration over the same tracks.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The 810s are quite different to the other 80xs.

Only aesthetically. Plus the engine has a bit more oomph.

Both. As a retired BR engineer told me: the track on mainlines in general isn't maintained to the same level as under BR. Its safe but not to the same standard.

Of course a retired BR engineer is going to say that though.

Crikey, I thought riding Pendolinos, some 20 years ago, was uncomfortable enough - but, based on this thread, it is even worse on the newer stock. I'll stick to my car....

390s are incredibly smooth riding, and also - while I get this isn't what we were discussing but is another valid point over 80x - extremely reliable.

I would rate 390s higher than some Mk3 HST trailers after various TOCs sourced different bogie dampers to the originals, meaning the ride deteriorated a bit on some sets compared to under BR.

100%

The Pendos I took weekly, 2005-2008, had a tendency to shudder as they moved off from standstill, to c. 20 mph. Every time.

Something must have happened since then, in that case. They now pull out so softly and silently I often double-take because I hadn't realised we were suddenly moving.

 

[D6130]

I'm sure Wells Fargo coaches must have ridden better than CAF

....or Hitachi!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Mark 4 ride is hardly excellent either, and yet over the same stretches they seem to ride with much, much less wheel noise, lateral hunting, and high-frequency vibration over the same tracks.

I never had an issue on IC225s, which I always loved and far preferred to an HST, but the quality while riding the TfW sets doesn't feel great.