House Of Lords Debate - End 'disgusting' train toilet sewage

[northwichcat]

What other classes of trains dump sewage on the tracks

For DMUs: 142s, 143s, 144s, 150s, 153s, 155s, 156s and some? 158s.

So basically the majority of the Northern Rail fleet do it!

 

[Marvin]

Maybe so, but in the case of a train passing at speed the material in question is atomised and spread around, possibly reaching a range of people nearby who wouldn't even know it had happened.

If that happens, it's been happening ever since trains with toilets were created. Is there any evidence that public health suffered from the amount of atomised sewage being flung around, or indeed that public health improved when retention tanks were introduced?

And if it's not actually doing us any harm, is it really so vital that it gets fixed (at massive cost)?

 

[edwin_m]

If that happens, it's been happening ever since trains with toilets were created. Is there any evidence that public health suffered from the amount of atomised sewage being flung around, or indeed that public health improved when retention tanks were introduced?

And if it's not actually doing us any harm, is it really so vital that it gets fixed (at massive cost)?

Quite so, but in our health-conscious and litigious society I don't think the fact it's been going on for 100+ years is necessarily a reason for it to continue.

 

[ryan125hst]

Ahm, First don't operate 185's. The one's Dan is talking about are operated by Arriva. (I'd write to Branson if I was you!)

First Transpennine Express operate Class 185's on most services. You've lost me on that last sentence?

 

[Surreyman]

For DMUs: 142s, 143s, 144s, 150s, 153s, 155s, 156s and some? 158s.

So basically the majority of the Northern Rail fleet do it!

And for EMUs; - 317 (The 317/1s may have been fitted with retention tanks, not sure if that is still the case?), 321, 322.
All other AC and all DC have either retention tanks or no toilets at all.
I am guessing that as and when 317s/321s/322 are refurbished and fitted with Disability compliant Loos, that retention tanks will be fitted.

Hauled stock/HST, all Mk3 stock except Sleepers and refurbished Chiltern.

The tracks at Liverpool St, Paddington and Manchester Piccadilly aren't the 'sweetest'.

 

[Flamingo]

First Transpennine Express operate Class 185's on most services. You've lost me on that last sentence?

Dan travels on ATW 158's. Branson has as much to do with those as FIRST does.

 

[Lockwood]

First Transpennine Express operate Class 185's on most services. You've lost me on that last sentence?

I'd guess an extension of logical fallacy.:

You blame A.
A is believed to not be responsible, B is to be blamed.
Therefore, since you think that A is responsible for B's problem, you should contact C who is unrelated to either A or B.

 

[thelongestroad]

Slow news day in the House of Lords or something?

 

[wbbminerals]

some? 158s.

Does this explain why they often (maybe about 30% of the time) smell like a voyager? I didn't think any Northern trains had septic tanks. Personally I would rather it went on the track than have the occurance of carriages stinking out because the toilet is full of 'waste' that won't flush away!

 

[MidlandMainlie]

For DMUs: 142s, 143s, 144s, 150s, 153s, 155s, 156s and some? 158s.

So basically the majority of the Northern Rail fleet do it!

Given the majority of those classes should be withdrawn by 2020 under DDA legislation then I agree with most people on here that the cost of doing so is not worthwhile for the few years benefit. As for the 156's and rest of the 158's would it be worthwhile during their next overhaul as they have a few years service left correct.

 

[Domh245]

If that happens, it's been happening ever since trains with toilets were created. Is there any evidence that public health suffered from the amount of atomised sewage being flung around, or indeed that public health improved when retention tanks were introduced?

And if it's not actually doing us any harm, is it really so vital that it gets fixed (at massive cost)?

Perhaps, as mentioned earlier, because when P-Way staff are walking the track, finding any "leavings" that aren't "atomised" such as sanitary towels or nappies, or even someone's waste having flushed when the train is at a standstill, is a bit on the nasty side, especially if you step onto it when walking about.

 

[ryan125hst]

Perhaps, as mentioned earlier, because when P-Way staff are walking the track, finding any "leavings" that aren't "atomised" such as sanitary towels or nappies, or even someone's waste having flushed when the train is at a standstill, is a bit on the nasty side, especially if you step onto it when walking about.

Surely sanitary towels and nappies shouldn't be flushed down the toilet anyway! If passengers are doing this, is there any wonder that the vacuum toilets on modern, retention tank fitted, trains are becoming blocked and then being locked OOU! :roll:

 

[jon0844]

So basically the majority of the Northern Rail fleet do it!

I always thought people talking about s**t on the tracks were actually referring to the rolling stock...

 

[HSTEd]

Given the majority of those classes should be withdrawn by 2020 under DDA legislation then I agree with most people on here that the cost of doing so is not worthwhile for the few years benefit. As for the 156's and rest of the 158's would it be worthwhile during their next overhaul as they have a few years service left correct.

If you think that any significant number of those trains will be withdrawn by 2020 I think you are naive.

Passenger growth and perrenial claims about overcrowding and short formation makes withdrawing any unit political suicide at the present time.

 

[GatwickDepress]

For DMUs: 142s, 143s, 144s, 150s, 153s, 155s, 156s and some? 158s.

So basically the majority of the Northern Rail fleet do it!

Aye, there's a lot of crap on the lines up north. Then there's all the sewage they dump onto the tracks.

 

[sprinterguy]

Does this explain why they often (maybe about 30% of the time) smell like a voyager? I didn't think any Northern trains had septic tanks. Personally I would rather it went on the track than have the occurance of carriages stinking out because the toilet is full of 'waste' that won't flush away!

According to this recent report from CIRAS, this is indeed the case, as the Northern 158s have been fitted with retention tanks:
http://www.ciras.org.uk/report-libr...rom-septic-tanks-on-class-158-units/?tid=1418

I wonder if there are any 158s that haven't been retro-fitted with CET tanks at this stage, then? Certainly, the evidence suggests that Scotrail, Northern and SWT units have all been fitted, and all the remaining ATW and EMT operated units have also undergone a high quality refurbishment in recent years that could have included such an alteration.

 

[northwichcat]

I wonder if there are any 158s that haven't been retro-fitted with CET tanks at this stage, then? Certainly, the evidence suggests that Scotrail, Northern and SWT units have all been fitted, and all the remaining ATW and EMT operated units have also undergone a high quality refurbishment in recent years that could have included such an alteration.

The 159s were fitted with retention toilets and apparently the 3 car 158s that went from TPE and got converted to 159s got them at the time of conversion, so I imagine the SWT 158s were done as well.

Northern have a mix of 158s: ex-FNW, ex-CT, MetroTrain, ex-Wessex and ex-TPE and they haven't done a full refurbishment at any time so they may well have a combination of ones with and without retention toilets.

 

[sprinterguy]

Northern have a mix of 158s: ex-FNW, ex-CT, MetroTrain, ex-Wessex and ex-TPE and they haven't done a full refurbishment at any time so they may well have a combination of ones with and without retention toilets.

The CIRAS report that I linked suggests that they are all fitted with CET tanks, but with different toilet designs:

Northern are aware of the issue the reporter highlights. The fitment of Control Emission Tanks (CETs) to 158 units was conducted in partnership with Network Rail several years ago as part of a national program.

Northern are, however, impacted further by the fact that its 158 allocation has been in a majority of cases cascaded fleets from other operators. This has resulted in many different toilet pan arrangements.

 

[NLC1072]

So effectively does this mean a portaloo will have to follow each permanent way gang/member of staff? As a lot of their "waste" goes on the ballast...

 

[Cliveblackpool]

Surely sanitary towels and nappies shouldn't be flushed down the toilet anyway! If passengers are doing this, is there any wonder that the vacuum toilets on modern, retention tank fitted, trains are becoming blocked and then being locked OOU! :roll:

Certain people seem to use the WC as a dustbin. Sewage works have a rotary sieve to remove this unnecessary debris from the sewage on arrival at the works.
Anyone owning a Saniflow pump toilet know that is a very expensive mistake to put sanitary towels wet wipes etc (or unpleasant task if DIY lol)
Sewage sprayed over the ballast works as a very efficient method of treating sewage. Air and sunlight very quickly breaks it down, and very similar to the process in treatment plants. Although not pleasant for persons working on the track. Any debris chucked down the loo doesn't break down, and makes the track look a rubbish tip.

 

[yorksrob]

Given the issues with smells in carriages, and septic tanks not being emptied often enough (we've all had this happen). And given that other professions have to deal with human waste (such as plumbers and sewer engineers) and have developed ways to manage that risk, is it perhaps the case that poo on the track is the lesser of two evils ?

 

[Zoidberg]

Given the issues with smells in carriages, and septic tanks not being emptied often enough (we've all had this happen). And given that other professions have to deal with human waste (such as plumbers and sewer engineers) and have developed ways to manage that risk, is it perhaps the case that poo on the track is the lesser of two evils ?

An alternative could be that when the built-in tanks are full, they overflow to the tracks (but not while in a station).

 

[yorksrob]

An alternative could be that when the built-in tanks are full, they overflow to the tracks (but not while in a station).

Fair point - although I understand that is the Mk 4 system, which according to some on here seems to be even more problematic than the traditional drop down loo !

 

[Flamingo]

Maybe some system that allows gradual emptying whilst in the middle of nowhere travelling at speed...

 

[Zoidberg]

Maybe some system that allows gradual emptying whilst in the middle of nowhere travelling at speed...

Or ... maybe ... an open exhausted kludgie pan and a sign that says "Do not flush while in a Station or while at a stop".

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Maybe some system that allows gradual emptying whilst in the middle of nowhere travelling at speed...

Are you about to suggest a new thread in which we all get to nominate these places where we'd most like to have all passing toilet tanks being emptied?

I'm thinking of a few places where a regular 'dump' wouldn't make much difference.

 

[starrymarkb]

The 159s were fitted with retention toilets and apparently the 3 car 158s that went from TPE and got converted to 159s got them at the time of conversion, so I imagine the SWT 158s were done as well.

Northern have a mix of 158s: ex-FNW, ex-CT, MetroTrain, ex-Wessex and ex-TPE and they haven't done a full refurbishment at any time so they may well have a combination of ones with and without retention toilets.

The 159s were fitted with retention loos from new, I believe the ones being retrofitted to 158s are a reverse engineering of the 159 loo. Certainly Wabtec had to use a 159/0 bog as a template for the 159/1 conversions.

 

[455driver]

The 159s were fitted with retention loos from new, I believe the ones being retrofitted to 158s are a reverse engineering of the 159 loo. Certainly Wabtec had to use a 159/0 bog as a template for the 159/1 conversions.

Before the pedants jump on this-

The 159s were built as 158s (without tanks) and then sent to Rosyth for conversion to 159s (1st class, tanks installed etc) so although they entered service with tanks they were not actually built with tanks.

A 159/0 was ripped apart so they could measure it and sort out the 158 and 159/1 installation.

Any modern installation should use vaccuum so it doesnt use as much water as the SWT installation does.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Before the pedants jump on this-

The 159s were built as 158s (without tanks) and then sent to Rosyth for conversion to 159s (1st class, tanks installed etc) so although they entered service with tanks they were not actually built with tanks.

A 159/0 was ripped apart so they could measure it and sort out the 158 and 159/1 installation.

Any modern installation should use vaccuum so it doesnt use as much water as the SWT installation does.

Is it the case that the vacuum is why the sign says do not operate while seated and why the flush button is behind the lid (so harder to find than the emergency alarm). Might help with constipation though .

 

[Moonshot]

Maybe the answer to the whole issue is to have trains that dont actually have loos.....buses and trams dont....