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How could Lumo expand/develop/improve?

YorkRailFan

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There are bound to be competition issues with Lumo (ie First Group) serving London-Glasgow against Avanti (First Group with Trenitalia).
True, but then we had Lumo (First Group) serving Newcastle-Edinburgh against TPE (formerly First Group), Hull Trains (First Group) Selby-Hull against TPE (formerly First Group), Wigan-Edinburgh/Glasgow with TPE (Formerly First Group) and Avanti (First Group with Trenitalia) and London to Exeter with GWR (First Group) and SWR (First Group with MTR).
 
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Jorge Da Silva

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There are bound to be competition issues with Lumo (ie First Group) serving London-Glasgow against Avanti (First Group with Trenitalia).
I could see them not going to Glasgow Central for that reason, but the other routes are pretty full.
Scotrail won't want competition on Edinburgh-Glasgow either.
What's really needed is a Lumo-style operator (but different owner) on London-Glasgow via the WCML.

That would be even more abstractive. Lumo is less so because its longer serves a different set of stops to Avanti and could serve a market under served such as Newcastle to Glasgow.
 

Scotrail314209

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There are bound to be competition issues with Lumo (ie First Group) serving London-Glasgow against Avanti (First Group with Trenitalia).
I could see them not going to Glasgow Central for that reason, but the other routes are pretty full.
Scotrail won't want competition on Edinburgh-Glasgow either.
What's really needed is a Lumo-style operator (but different owner) on London-Glasgow via the WCML.
A way they could avoid the competition with Scotrail between Edinburgh and Glasgow is marking Edinburgh as pick up only, because I don't think Lumo would be interested in Glasgow - Edinburgh passengers filling their trains up.

If they were to run into Queen Street instead of Central, and if they path it correctly, it would be much faster than going via Carstairs or Shotts, journey times would be rather competitive too.
 

dk1

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A way they could avoid the competition with Scotrail between Edinburgh and Glasgow is marking Edinburgh as pick up only, because I don't think Lumo would be interested in Glasgow - Edinburgh passengers filling their trains up.

If they were to run into Queen Street instead of Central, and if they path it correctly, it would be much faster than going via Carstairs or Shotts, journey times would be rather competitive too.

You could tap into Motherwell too though. Also good if it can sell Glasgow-Newcastle then Newcastle-Stevenage/Kings Cross straight after.
 

JW4

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A way they could avoid the competition with Scotrail between Edinburgh and Glasgow is marking Edinburgh as pick up only, because I don't think Lumo would be interested in Glasgow - Edinburgh passengers filling their trains up.
Would Edinburgh being pick up only not make London-Edinburgh Lumo journeys and Newcastle-Edinburgh not valid?
 

DanNCL

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Arguably they already do primarily abstract - all other OAOs at least have one destination that doesn't have a direct service to London on their route. Certainly when I've used them (OK, only once, but it might happen again in May) it's been them or LNER/Avanti.
Primarily abstractive would suggest their main purpose was to abstract revenue from existing rail operators, specifically LNER in this case. Lumo have taken half of their customer base from the airlines and another proportion from the roads, they’re not primarily abstractive.
There are bound to be competition issues with Lumo (ie First Group) serving London-Glasgow against Avanti (First Group with Trenitalia).
I could see them not going to Glasgow Central for that reason, but the other routes are pretty full.
Scotrail won't want competition on Edinburgh-Glasgow either.
What's really needed is a Lumo-style operator (but different owner) on London-Glasgow via the WCML.
That argument likely wouldn’t stand as Lumo wouldn’t be competitive time-wise, and First don’t get the revenue from Avanti anymore it goes to the DFT.

That would be even more abstractive. Lumo is less so because its longer serves a different set of stops to Avanti and could serve a market under served such as Newcastle to Glasgow.
Newcastle to Glasgow demand I think is likely to be the main selling point at least to the ORR. More points could potentially be scored by stopping at any of Falkirk High/Falkirk Grahamston/Shotts/Motherwell depending which route between Edinburgh and Glasgow was used.

Would Edinburgh being pick up only not make London-Edinburgh Lumo journeys and Newcastle-Edinburgh not valid?
Pick-up only heading south and set down only heading north presumably.
 

YorkRailFan

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A way they could avoid the competition with Scotrail between Edinburgh and Glasgow is marking Edinburgh as pick up only, because I don't think Lumo would be interested in Glasgow - Edinburgh passengers filling their trains up.

If they were to run into Queen Street instead of Central, and if they path it correctly, it would be much faster than going via Carstairs or Shotts, journey times would be rather competitive too.
You mean make Edinburgh pick up only whilst on Southbound to London and drop off only on Northbound to Glasgow.
 

Falcon1200

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As neither LNER or Cross Country now has any interest in serving the Glasgow/East Coast market, well done to Lumo for filling the gap. The simplest thing would be for them to take over the unused paths of those two operators between Glasgow Central and Edinburgh via Carstairs so no capacity or pathing issues. The only problem might be then fitting into the ECML timetable south of Edinburgh.
 

Speed43125

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The Scotsman article at least suggests that the Glasgow Terminus to be used is not yet decided, theoretically a 5 car AT300 would fit in Queen Street. I wonder if potentially a Falkirk call might be useful, if likely to fail on the Primarily Extractive test.
 

YorkRailFan

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The Scotsman article at least suggests that the Glasgow Terminus to be used is not yet decided, theoretically a 5 car AT300 would fit in Queen Street. I wonder if potentially a Falkirk call might be useful, if likely to fail on the Primarily Extractive test.
If say Queen Street is used. Could we see 10 car 803s between London and Edinburgh and then the rear set detached at Waverley with the front set continuing to Queen Street?
 

Topological

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Might be a stupid question, but are tickets sold Edinburgh Stations to Glasgow Stations any permitted route?

Otherwise going to Central would not abstract revenue from the Queen Street route most would take.
 

tornado

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Having personally done Lumo+Scotrail to Queen St on this route a few observations
  • Lumo advance prices are nowhere near the £20 when they launched. You're looking at £50 far in advance unless you want to travel on a wednesday.
  • Avanti Superfare can be had for £30 Glasgow-London, and late evening advances from £40.
  • Time-wise Lumo would be a better experience than the Avanti-birmingham services (6h), but not the regular Trent valley, even the slowest is 4 hr 57 min, unless they can get better paths in which case a Lumo 5 hrs is competitive.
  • Comfort-wise Avanti win hands down. Same seats but better lighting (warm and cosy), tray tables at a normal height, more 4-seater tables, and lighter loading factors. The Pendolino refurbs are easily the best standard class experience in the UK.
 

ainsworth74

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Comfort-wise Avanti win hands down. Same seats but better lighting (warm and cosy), tray tables at a normal height, more 4-seater tables, and lighter loading factors. The Pendolino refurbs are easily the best standard class experience in the UK.
Though, of course, Lumo isn't primarily targetting Avanti (or LNER) they're targeting airlines where even an 803s interior would beat most economy class aircraft.
 

Scotrail314209

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If they were to consider Queen Street as their terminus, one of the difficult days would be on a Saturday when the e2g is at it's full fifteen minute frequency. Even then on a weekday it would still be difficult as I'm pretty sure the weekday paths still exist for the XX:00 and XX:30 departures (they still run in the peaks!).

Central will probably be where they go, but the journey times might be slightly less competitive because it takes roughly an hour and ten minutes to go via Carstairs (calling at Motherwell and Haymarket), then that on top of the 4hrs+ to get between Edinburgh and London.
 

Travelmonkey

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It all depends it could all be smoke and mirrors, if XC & LNER can't seem to get their regular Glasgows to work what hope will Lumo have, then isn't there also the proposed Grand Union services to consider that are proposed up the WCML,
 

jayah

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Arguably they already do primarily abstract - all other OAOs at least have one destination that doesn't have a direct service to London on their route. Certainly when I've used them (OK, only once, but it might happen again in May) it's been them or LNER/Avanti.

I think DaFT are seeing them as an experiment into the benefits and pitfalls of true competition, i.e. not considering abstraction.
Not true in this case.

They have emptied the skies, or made a good start anyway, discounted otherwise exploitative fares that tend to arise when there is only one operator and added capacity on a route with huge latent demand (as do many others). It is now cheaper to get a train from Newcastle to London than from Newcastle to Birmingham.

It is just a shame they have 5 cars and not 9 and don't operate over Cross Country routes.

Comparing Dec 19 and Dec 23 despite generally booming air travel last year:

Heathrow - Edinburgh 93.8k / 85.5k
Gatwick - Edinburgh 60.0k / 39.2k
London City - Edinburgh 36.5k / 28k
 

Jorge Da Silva

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It all depends it could all be smoke and mirrors, if XC & LNER can't seem to get their regular Glasgows to work what hope will Lumo have, then isn't there also the proposed Grand Union services to consider that are proposed up the WCML,

One of them ended (XC) most services due to COVID and never reinstated them presumably due to cost cutting by the treasury. Grand Union does not serve Glasgow under its Stirling Plan.
 

jthjth

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Though, of course, Lumo isn't primarily targetting Avanti (or LNER) they're targeting airlines where even an 803s interior would beat most economy class aircraft.
But you only sit in the plane for less than a quarter of the time you have to endure the train. I much prefer flying to Glasgow than taking the train.
 

Lemmy99uk

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If they were to consider Queen Street as their terminus, one of the difficult days would be on a Saturday when the e2g is at it's full fifteen minute frequency. Even then on a weekday it would still be difficult as I'm pretty sure the weekday paths still exist for the XX:00 and XX:30 departures (they still run in the peaks!).
I’m not particularly familiar with the current infrastructure in the area, but would routing via Grahamston help with any pathing issue?

I have vague memories of some Glasgow to Edinburgh services using that route in loco hauled days but I may be miss-remembering
 

jagardner1984

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Interesting this development - I might argue the Glasgow extension makes Lumo services less abstractive - as it opens corridors .... Croy to Stevenage anyone ? ... which others do not serve at all. For timing I'd have thought High Level would be infinitely preferable, with only one service in either direction landing in the Scotrail peak service. So plenty that could slot into the unused paths into GLQ (obvious performance risk from further south). In some ways it is regrettable there can't be some arrangement between Scotrail and Lumo (bear in mind Scotrail is effectively OLR), for ticket acceptance, since presumably most of Lumo's trade will still be in the Edinburgh London corridor.

However, the reputation of Avanti is really at rock bottom amongst Glasgow travellers I have spoken to, and so I wouldn't entirely discount there being some market for Glasgow - London journeys around 05hrs 15mins if the price point is right .... as one person I mentioned it to earlier today said "still a damn sight quicker than my journey the last time those (insert rude word) clowns dumped me in (insert rude word) Preston". That perception is hard to shift, however unrepresentative it might be of most journeys

Regrettably, whilst my initial booking is always a train of some type, the times I have "needed to be" at the other end of the WCML from where I was - e.g. my work was the following day and not flexible - including a rather bizarre cancellation of the sleeper when no-one had washed the bedding at Wembley - when an entire train operated with just the seated carriage in use - my perception of my own journeys is that Air has got me there when the WCML has thrown in the towel (in the above case literally) - there is certainly a market there to be tapped into.
 

ainsworth74

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But you only sit in the plane for less than a quarter of the time you have to endure the train. I much prefer flying to Glasgow than taking the train.
Then presumably you aren't part of Lumo's target market seeing as half their passengers on the Edinburgh side are people who would have otherwise flown they're clearly doing something right.
 

Bletchleyite

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In some ways it is regrettable there can't be some arrangement between Scotrail and Lumo (bear in mind Scotrail is effectively OLR), for ticket acceptance, since presumably most of Lumo's trade will still be in the Edinburgh London corridor.

Unless they do something like make it pick up/set down only, "ScotRail" (Any Permitted) tickets will be valid on it, just as they are between e.g. Edinburgh and Newcastle.
 

najaB

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As neither LNER or Cross Country now has any interest in serving the Glasgow/East Coast market, well done to Lumo for filling the gap.
They're not interested in it largely because the market isn't big enough to justify using a train that could be making money (or losing less money) somewhere else.
 

Class 170101

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FirstGroup, the leading private sector transport operator, today announces that its popular open access rail service Lumo is in discussions with Transport Scotland and Network Rail to extend some of its London-Edinburgh trains to and from Glasgow.

Having identified opportunities to extend a number of daily journeys to and from Glasgow in the timetables for 2025 and beyond, work will now continue with Transport Scotland and track infrastructure manager Network Rail to agree final route options and timings ahead of an application for access rights to the Office of Rail and Road (ORR), the industry regulator.

If successful, the new services could be in operation from next summer.

Another article without a paywall.
 

Chrism20

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I would have thought that paths to Queen Street high level would be verging on the impossible.
Probably doable at the moment as the shuttle is still half hourly. If it were to go back to every fifteen minutes though it would be more of a problem
 

najaB

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Probably doable at the moment as the shuttle is still half hourly. If it were to go back to every fifteen minutes though it would be more of a problem
That said, I could see some horse trading happening to allow Lumo to use maybe up to four non-peak hour paths per day so that those hours would have three Scotrail and one Lumo service between Edinburgh and Queen Street with a revenue share.
 
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waverley47

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Let's work through this logically.

Current operation

They currently run 5 return trips a day.

The trains have on average, an hour layover in Waverley, in the east end bay platforms. The actual duration ranges from 50 minutes (19:11 until 19:58) to 75 minutes (10:10 until 11:25)

None of these layovers are long enough to do a return trip to Glasgow, so that means either more trains, or rewriting the timetable. Either way, nothing in the timetable gives us any evidence assuming how many trains might make it to Glasgow, or which station, or at which times. So we work from scratch, and assume a new timetable, or more trains, or both.

Potential demand

There are currently direct drains between York, Newcastle, Edinburgh, Motherwell and Glasgow Central, albeit once per day in each direction through each of XC and LNER. The latter is going in the December timetable change, and the former is supposed to be running broadly two-hourly, however I suspect we've seen the last of that.

There obviously is a market for direct services between the ECML and Glasgow, simply given the size of the cities involved. That means there probably would be at least some passengers doing those journeys on any direct services that ran. The difficulty here is that Edinburgh is a much, much bigger traffic draw than Glasgow, at certain times of year up to a factor of ten.

There are 3tph at least between Edinburgh, Newcastle and York, and at least 2tph all the way to London. These services connect comfortably onto regular ScotRail services across the Central Belt. There is also a direct service up the WCML, from Glasgow to London, again connecting onto regular services across the Central Belt.

Commercial viability

This gives us a potential market share for Lumo to capture, which basically amounts to cross-Edinburgh passengers. Given that Lumo is severely limited in where it is allowed to stop, this new market share is those passengers from Newcastle/Morpeth to Glasgow, or vice versa. I doubt in the strongest possible terms, that this is enough for a purely commercial enterprise to make a profit.

There will be some people who would pick Lumo all the way to London, because it's cheaper. There will also be the occasional person who jumps on the Lumo between Edinburgh and Glasgow, and the ORCATS raid that comes with this. These two groups will be where the profit is found. For either of these, heading to Central vs Queen Street doesn't really make a difference, as one is faster but the other is less well served.

I suspect, if this does go ahead, we will see one or two of the five daily services extended to Central, as pathing will be easier, and that they will be full with cheap advances from Glasgow to London. But that's a three hour round trip, and that means at least one extra unit. Lumo has already proved that it's profitable on a very lucrative axis, and the logical move would be to increase capacity on the services it already runs, rather than push for an extension with a dubious at best, and doubtful at worst, business case.

The ideological factor

Someone pointed out earlier, and I apologise that I can't find the original message to link, that Lumo is an experiment in commercial competition on an already profitable axis. Its the first open access operation that hasn't been held to the Primarily Abstractive test, and I expect that this is why the Glasgow extension has been mooted.

If Lumo has decided that the current government is ideologically opposed to public monopolies, they may have also worked out that by extending to Glasgow, they can raid all those nice, juicy advances. Suddenly, we have a business case. If it happens, which I actually expect isn't beyond the realms of possibility, this will be why.
 

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