Is a 2 mile walk (suggested by journey planners) reasonable?

[richw]

I was looking at Axminster to Weymouth for Monday of next week.
Every itinerary offered includes a 2 mile walk from Yeovil junction to Pen mill.
Is a 2 mile walk really considered reasonable for an itinerary? It allowed 48 mins.

Reality is I am going to take the X51/X53 bus service, I was just weighing up all options, and couldn’t believe a rail itinerary included a 2 mile walk.

 

[brad465]

Depends on the person's walking speed. I for example could do it in about 30-35 mins, but I imagine elderly person of course would never contemplate it, although 48 minutes is quicker if you've just missed a bus that's an hourly frequency. The two stations in question get a few direct services but that's it. Could also it be that National Rail can't comprehend bus services that are not rail replacement buses?

 

[The exile]

I was looking at Axminster to Weymouth for Monday of next week.
Every itinerary offered includes a 2 mile walk from Yeovil junction to Pen mill.
Is a 2 mile walk really considered reasonable for an itinerary? It allowed 48 mins.

Reality is I am going to take the X51/X53 bus service, I was just weighing up all options, and couldn’t believe a rail itinerary included a 2 mile walk.

Given the facts that a) they probably can’t include the bus in the itinerary and b) that the alternative would be travel via Exeter, Taunton and Castle Cary or Salisbury and Southampton - both of which would take a lot longer and be a lot more expensive , I don’t see they have much option. Imagine if the itinerary didn’t show these: “but it’s only a 2 mile walk….”

 

[bramling]

I was looking at Axminster to Weymouth for Monday of next week.
Every itinerary offered includes a 2 mile walk from Yeovil junction to Pen mill.
Is a 2 mile walk really considered reasonable for an itinerary? It allowed 48 mins.

Reality is I am going to take the X51/X53 bus service, I was just weighing up all options, and couldn’t believe a rail itinerary included a 2 mile walk.

2 miles should take about 40 minutes for a typical able-bodied person, do-able in 35 minutes if walking briskly, so in that sense it’s feasible. However one does have to consider how practicable the walking route would be - do the roads have good pavements for example? The latter is something which would bother me more.

 

[WestAnglian]

I tend to use Google Maps for more complex journeys nowadays. If you were to leave now it suggests three journeys:

X53 bus all the way (presumably you want to use rail)
Bus 68 between the Yeovil stations
Catch the rare SWR service between the two

I suspect railway OJPs don't look at bus times other than those rare occasions when they're in the timetable.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I would say 2 miles is not reasonable in the sense that, if someone is looking at public transport options for a journey, then it is extremely unlikely that they are thinking about walking 2 miles. Having said that, if a 2 mile walk is the only sensible option for making a journey, then it's probably not unreasonable for a journey planner to show the option, as long as it makes it extremely clear upfront that the walk is required - so there's no danger of anyone booking the journey and not realising it involves such a long walk. (Does the journey planner do that?)

Realistically, if you're going from Axminster to Weymouth by train, somehow making your way between the two Yeovil stations is going to be the only option. I guess the failing here is that the journey planner doesn't tell you there's a bus.

 

[alistairlees]

I was looking at Axminster to Weymouth for Monday of next week.
Every itinerary offered includes a 2 mile walk from Yeovil junction to Pen mill.
Is a 2 mile walk really considered reasonable for an itinerary? It allowed 48 mins.

Reality is I am going to take the X51/X53 bus service, I was just weighing up all options, and couldn’t believe a rail itinerary included a 2 mile walk.

The itinerary will suggest a transfer - ‘make your own way’. You can get a bus or taxi, for example or, if you wish, walk. There is no walk fixed link.

 

[jupiter]

For someone going on holiday with two cases, not an unreasonable assumption in the direction of Weymouth, then a two mile walk is ridiculous.

 

[exbrel]

i've done it a few times years ago when there was no bus service, 40ish mins... and great scenery...

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Yep - just looked at the National Rail journey planner, and it implies transfer:



I would say that's pretty bad. Most people are not even going to know what the double arrow signifying 'transfer' even means. I mean, I'm very familiar with the rail network and even I don't really understand exactly what 'transfer' is supposed in general to imply for mode of transport. So would say there's a pretty high risk that someone who isn't familiar with the rail network could book that journey believing that the train will take them all the way. That really needs fixing.

 

[geoffk]

It's not so much the distance but the nature of the route, which is a busy country lane until you get to the edge of Yeovil. You'd be walking along a 60 mph road with no footways.

 

[The exile]

For someone going on holiday with two cases, not an unreasonable assumption in the direction of Weymouth, then a two mile walk is ridiculous.

But the OJP doesn’t know that’s what you’re doing. Would suggest that what it should do is highlight the approximate length of walk for any off station interchange and provide a link to Traveline or whatever site is considered.best for national bus info saying - there may be a connecting bus service.

 

[zwk500]

Is a 2 mile walk reasonable to offer? Yes.
Will it be reasonable to expect everybody to accept that journey? No.

Out of interest, if you bought a ticket from Axminster to Weymouth against that itinerary, would you be able to claim a taxi fare on the train ticket? I'm guessing not.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Any idea what the taxi fare is?

 

[A0wen]

To be fair - the NRE site doesn't say walk - it say's transfer and shows a Bus or Bike.

Ones where it can be walked it does show as walk - two example

 

[Starmill]

Out of interest, if you bought a ticket from Axminster to Weymouth against that itinerary, would you be able to claim a taxi fare on the train ticket? I'm guessing not.

The purpose of the transfer link is that it's supposed to be at your own discretion and cost. That's communicated better in some places than others, of course!

But the OJP doesn’t know that’s what you’re doing. Would suggest that what it should do is highlight the approximate length of walk for any off station interchange and provide a link to Traveline or whatever site is considered.best for national bus info saying - there may be a connecting bus service.

Transfer links are usually considered too far for a walk, otherwise they'd just be walking links like Wigan for example. In practice, people who have no trouble with walking and who don't have much to carry may be able to walk in the available time.

 

[zwk500]

The purpose of the transfer link is that it's supposed to be at your own discretion and cost. That's communicated better in some places than others, of course!

I thought as much, although it could have some interesting implications if the rail industry was required to cover any fares for transfer links incurred on top of the train fare paid. Given the number of passengers between the two Yeovil stations, covering a taxi for each of them may well be cheaper than any of the rail infrastructure solutions suggested.

 

[Starmill]

I mean, I'm very familiar with the rail network and even I don't really understand exactly what 'transfer' is supposed in general to imply for mode of transport.

That's the point, it means 'find your own way' effectively. In most cases there's a bus or tram service, but sometimes there isn't and as such it's up to you to walk, cycle or hire a taxi.

I suspect railway OJPs don't look at bus times other than those rare occasions when they're in the timetable.

Unfortunately they currently can't do this yes.

Depends on the person's walking speed. I for example could do it in about 30-35 mins, but I imagine elderly person of course would never contemplate it, although 48 minutes is quicker if you've just missed a bus that's an hourly frequency. The two stations in question get a few direct services but that's it. Could also it be that National Rail can't comprehend bus services that are not rail replacement buses?

It's very possible to code a service bus in, it's just that unfortunately they frequently don't make it through to the data feed. In this case it couldn't be coded though due to a lack of through rail tickets.

I thought as much, although it could have some interesting implications if the rail industry was required to cover any fares for transfer links incurred on top of the train fare paid. Given the number of passengers between the two Yeovil stations, covering a taxi for each of them may well be cheaper than any of the rail infrastructure solutions suggested.

Indeed. Or if there were some small amount of annual funding, just use it to pay the existing bus operator to accept rail tickets. Alas money for even this small thing is unlikely to be available, so instead we're stuck with the current mess.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

The purpose of the transfer link is that it's supposed to be at your own discretion and cost. That's communicated better in some places than others, of course!

Thanks for the explanation. I have to admit I don't think I've ever seen anywhere that makes that intent clear. On the other hand I haven't seen it come up as an option too often on journey planners.

Out of interest, are there any other places where 'Transfer' would routinely be offered as a way to get between stations? I just randomly tried testing a few journeys that involved walking between stations (Burscough Bridge to Junction, Birmingham New Street to Moor Street, and Newark North Gate to Castle) and they all came up as 'walk'. I do recall seeing 'Transfer' occasionally on journey planners, but off the top of my head that's normally during engineering works (for example, on one occasion I recall, trains were not running to Charing Cross, so the journey planner advised going to Cannon Street and then 'Transfer' to Charing Cross). But I can't recall seeing 'Transfer' for a 'normal' timetable before.

 

[yorkie]

I was looking at Axminster to Weymouth for Monday of next week.
Every itinerary offered includes a 2 mile walk from Yeovil junction to Pen mill.
Is a 2 mile walk really considered reasonable for an itinerary? It allowed 48 mins.

Reality is I am going to take the X51/X53 bus service, I was just weighing up all options, and couldn’t believe a rail itinerary included a 2 mile walk.

The forum's site enables you to deselect "transfers" (which this is) and "walks" and any other modes/operators you wish to exclude, under "advanced options":

Out of interest, are there any other places where 'Transfer' would routinely be offered as a way to get between stations?

Cross-London transfers at times when LU is not (deemed to be) running; you won't see this often as the vast majority of people wouldn't be travelling at such times, and it also requires trains to actually be running from the terminal you're transferring to.

Yep - just looked at the National Rail journey planner, and it implies transfer:

View attachment 139887

I would say that's pretty bad. Most people are not even going to know what the double arrow signifying 'transfer' even means. I mean, I'm very familiar with the rail network and even I don't really understand exactly what 'transfer' is supposed in general to imply for mode of transport. So would say there's a pretty high risk that someone who isn't familiar with the rail network could book that journey believing that the train will take them all the way. That really needs fixing.

I am sure the people at RDG who are responsible for fixed links read this forum, so if anyone has any suggestions for them to make this clearer, they may well listen.

 

[BRX]

Out of interest, are there any other places where 'Transfer' would routinely be offered as a way to get between stations? I just randomly tried testing a few journeys that involved walking between stations (Burscough Bridge to Junction, Birmingham New Street to Moor Street, and Newark North Gate to Castle) and they all came up as 'walk'. I do recall seeing 'Transfer' occasionally on journey planners, but off the top of my head that's normally during engineering works (for example, on one occasion I recall, trains were not running to Charing Cross, so the journey planner advised going to Cannon Street and then 'Transfer' to Charing Cross). But I can't recall seeing 'Transfer' for a 'normal' timetable before.

A bus transfer is always offered for Glasgow Central - Queen St, even though it's very easily walkable.

 

[yorkie]

A bus transfer is always offered for Glasgow Central - Queen St, even though it's very easily walkable.

It's a walk outside the bus operating times; from BRTimes.com:

WALK​	From 0001 until 0759​	5 minutes​
BUS​	From 0800 until 2000​	5 minutes​
WALK​	From 2001 until 2359​	5 minutes​

 

[Grecian 1998]

I have done the walk and it isn't a particularly pleasant one. There are no pavements most of the way and the road is wide enough for 2 cars to pass, so vehicles do approach at up to 60mph. Just about tolerable if you're able bodied and paying attention, but it would be very uncomfortable if you're not able bodied or looking after youngsters or a dog.

Also worth noting there's no bus on Sundays - indeed as far as I can tell, there are fewer than 5 buses each way serving Yeovil as a whole (a town of 45,000 people) on Sundays, all in the late afternoon or evening.

 

[TheSmiths82]

I would say not, it doesn't take into account your luggage either. If you miss your connection because the walk took too long (e.g it was impossible to do it any faster) who is to blame?

 

[alistairlees]

There's two things at play here

1. The data. This only has a 'transfer' in it, in this case (Yeovil Junction to Yeovil Pen Mill)
2. Booking engines. They are generally not showing what "Transfer" means at all clearly. "Transfer" means "make your own way" (at your own expense). This might be by taxi, bus, walk or anything else. The railway provides no information on what methods are available, or which you should choose. It's up to you to organise it yourself. it is not the fault of the railway if you don't do this.

 

[Haywain]

Is a 2 mile walk really considered reasonable for an itinerary? It allowed 48 mins.

It should be allowing an hour in between trains - the fixed link is 50 minutes with a further 5 minutes at each station.

"Transfer" means "make your own way" (at your own expense).

I think there is an argument that this could be made clearer. As for available methods, these will vary according to time of day and day of the week, so I don't think that information can be easily provided.

 

[zwk500]

It should be allowing an hour in between trains - the fixed link is 50 minutes with a further 5 minutes at each station.

I think there is an argument that this could be made clearer. As for available methods, these will vary according to time of day and day of the week, so I don't think that information can be easily provided.

The fact that the transfer is at your own (additional) expense should be highlighted though.

 

[Watershed]

The railway provides no information on what methods are available, or which you should choose. It's up to you to organise it yourself. it is not the fault of the railway if you don't do this.

I would agree - provided this is made clear when booking (it often isn't). That being said, this clearly isn't a customer friendly solution; in a sensible world, the bus timetable would be in the rail data, and the cost included in any rail ticket that is valid for the transfer.

 

[SargeNpton]

Circa 1992, British Rail created the first journey planner: CATE; which was used by Telephone Enquiry Bureau staff to provide journey info to callers. For non-timetabled inter-station connections the fixed-link facility was created.

This allowed the journey planner to calculate the time need to travel between the two station, with a suggestion as to what the mode was. Where the mode couldn't accurately be determined the catch all "Transfer" was used. As it was experienced enquiry staff looking at the results, they could then advise the passenger as to what that fixed-link was and whether it was included in the rail fare.

When journey planners moved out of the TEBs into the public domain no effort was made to enhance the fixed-link data. What you are seeing now is the de facto data standard from 1992. Unless or until someone stumps up some money to completely re-vamp how those non-timetabled inter-station connections are displayed will remain as they are now.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I would say not, it doesn't take into account your luggage either.

That was the main thought that I had in my earlier posting concerning a taxi when faced with a two mile walk with luggage.