Is a 2 mile walk (suggested by journey planners) reasonable?

[swt_passenger]

It should be allowing an hour in between trains - the fixed link is 50 minutes with a further 5 minutes at each station.

I think there is an argument that this could be made clearer. As for available methods, these will vary according to time of day and day of the week, so I don't think that information can be easily provided.

“Independent transfer” perhaps?

 

[richw]

The itinerary will suggest a transfer - ‘make your own way’. You can get a bus or taxi, for example or, if you wish, walk. There is no walk fixed link.

GWR specifically tells me to walk. Or uses an icon which implies walking at the very least. Screenshot attached.

Is a 2 mile walk reasonable to offer? Yes.
Will it be reasonable to expect everybody to accept that journey? No.

Out of interest, if you bought a ticket from Axminster to Weymouth against that itinerary, would you be able to claim a taxi fare on the train ticket? I'm guessing not.

What about delay repay if it took me longer to walk than allowed? I know the answer but if the journey planner tells me it takes 50 mins and it takes me an hour for example.

To be fair - the NRE site doesn't say walk - it say's transfer and shows a Bus or Bike.

Ones where it can be walked it does show as walk - two example

GWR implies walking with their choice of symbols

The forum's site enables you to deselect "transfers" (which this is) and "walks" and any other modes/operators you wish to exclude, under "advanced options":
View attachment 139893
View attachment 139894

This is the most useful, as the 1206 would be my desired time to travel, and is the journey that’s telling me to ‘walk’

 

[infobleep]

A bus transfer is always offered for Glasgow Central - Queen St, even though it's very easily walkable.

View attachment 139896
View attachment 139897

They often suggest a tram between East Croydon and West Croydon, which means a fare can't always be displayed if you put in Burgess Hill to West Sutton.

Walking would be the correct answer in this case, unless you have a travel card.

This will get resolved soon though as travel cards are being removed. A silver lining

 

[DynamicSpirit]

A bus transfer is always offered for Glasgow Central - Queen St, even though it's very easily walkable.

View attachment 139896
View attachment 139897

That's not quite the same thing, as that is specifically recommending you use a bus.

As I understand it, there are 6 ways of transferring (defined in the fixed links data): BUS, FERRY, METRO, TRANSFER, TUBE, WALK. Glasgow Central to Queen Street is defined as BUS during the day and WALK at night - hence the journey planner offered you a bus. Yeovil Junction to Pen Mill on the other hand is defined as TRANSFER - which is going to be quite obscure to the general public when it crops up on journey planners (although @Starmill and others have clarified on this thread that it means, make your own way at your own expense), and is therefore appearing as 'transfer' on journey planners.

(I think you could argue that 'METRO' is pretty vague too, though in practice someone familiar with the network will probably realise what's intended for any specific interchange)

 

[infobleep]

If you go into just transfer part of the journey, on the Android-based National Rail Enquiries app, it doesn't give any additional info.

Here is a screenshot.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

They often suggest a tram between East Croydon and West Croydon, which means a fare can't always be displayed if you put in Burgess Hill to West Sutton.

Are you sure of that? On a quick check, I can't find any reference to East Croydon-West Croydon in my fixed link data files, and a quick check on the journey planners comes up with recommendations to use the train the whole way for that journey, either via Norwood Junction or via Clapham Junction and Wimbledon.

Walking would be the correct answer in this case, unless you have a travel card.

I rather agree, with a 10-ish-minute walk, that ought be be considered an option and may well be quicker than using the train.

 

[zwk500]

Are you sure of that? On a quick check, I can't find any reference to East Croydon-West Croydon in my fixed link data files, and a quick check on the journey planners comes up with recommendations to use the train the whole way for that journey, either via Norwood Junction or via Clapham Junction and Wimbledon.

I have definitely had suggestions to use the tram from West Croydon to East Croydon when travelling Haggerston-Lewes before, although they may have been from Google Maps rather than NRE.
ISTR for that specific journey I have had various combinations of changes including New Cross and walk to New Cross Gate when there were delays, as well as changes at NXG and Norwood Jn, changes only at one or t'other and the tram (although I have usually walked from West to East Croydon).

 

[infobleep]

Are you sure of that? On a quick check, I can't find any reference to East Croydon-West Croydon in my fixed link data files, and a quick check on the journey planners comes up with recommendations to use the train the whole way for that journey, either via Norwood Junction or via Clapham Junction and Wimbledon.



I rather agree, with a 10-ish-minute walk, that ought be be considered an option and may well be quicker than using the train.

Maybe it has changed since I last made the journey in the morning peak.

Edit: It has changed but it use to be the case. Not that travelling via Clapham Junction is permitted on a point-to-point but that's irrelevant to this discussionI.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I am sure the people at RDG who are responsible for fixed links read this forum, so if anyone has any suggestions for them to make this clearer, they may well listen.

Ah yes, thanks! Your post jogged my memory to realise that the main place I'd puzzled over what 'TRANSFER' meant in the past was where I'd seen it in the fixed links files. A quick scan of the files seems to suggest that it is, as you suggest, mainly used for connections within London. As far as I can see, Yeovil seems to be somewhat unique as it's the only place outside a big city where TRANSFER is the mode for a fixed link between two rail stations. (Outside London, it's also used for Manchester Piccadilly to Victoria, which seems a little odd to me, but I'm guessing maybe reflects that rail tickets are not accepted on the tram so they can't explicitly suggest that?).

As for suggestions for what to make it clearer... very tricky. In an ideal World, I think the mode would be a multi-valued field that could specify such nuances as 'You could take a tram which you have to pay for yourself/you can take the tube which is covered by your ticket/it's X metres if you prefer to walk it, but I imagine that would be too disruptive a change to the data format. I suspect in the short term, the best thing would be to better document what 'TRANSFER' means, and also give much stronger advice to the people who write the journey planners to try to get them to make the meaning clearer in their output.

 

[SargeNpton]

That was the main thought that I had in my earlier posting concerning a taxi when faced with a two mile walk with luggage.

I don't know whether it's still the case, but some years back one or other of the Yeovil stations didn't have a taxi rank. So you had to phone a local taxi/mini-cab company to arrange a pick up.

 

[BRX]

I'd say there's an argument just to remove it from that location, if forcing journey planners to provide better information is not possible. It sounds like something that is more likely to cause hassle to travellers than it is likely to be helpful.

 

[zwk500]

I'd say there's an argument just to remove it from that location, if forcing journey planners to provide better information is not possible. It sounds like something that is more likely to cause hassle to travellers than it is likely to be helpful.

It should be perfectly possible to add an little comment to the 'transfer' option along the lines of 'you will need to make this part of the journey by yourself and at your own expense, your train ticket is not valid on this leg'.

 

[Horizon22]

Is a 2 mile walk reasonable to offer? Yes.
Will it be reasonable to expect everybody to accept that journey? No.

Out of interest, if you bought a ticket from Axminster to Weymouth against that itinerary, would you be able to claim a taxi fare on the train ticket? I'm guessing not.

Therefore it isn't reasonable as you have to apply the journey planner to the least able person as a universal tool. I personally can beat journey planner connections quite often (certainly around London & Home Counties), but I wouldn't reasonably expect the vast majority of the population to do it.

 

[SargeNpton]

It should be perfectly possible to add an little comment to the 'transfer' option along the lines of 'you will need to make this part of the journey by yourself and at your own expense, your train ticket is not valid on this leg'.

As I said in #29: "What you are seeing now is the de facto data standard from 1992. Unless or until someone stumps up some money to completely re-vamp how those non-timetabled inter-station connections are displayed will remain as they are now."

 

[BingMan]

Is a 2 mile walk reasonable to offer? Yes.
Will it be reasonable to expect everybody to accept that journey? No.

Out of interest, if you bought a ticket from Axminster to Weymouth against that itinerary, would you be able to claim a taxi fare on the train ticket? I'm guessing not.

And if the walk took you 78 minutes could you claim delay compensation?

 

[BRX]

Therefore it isn't reasonable as you have to apply the journey planner to the least able person as a universal tool. I personally can beat journey planner connections quite often (certainly around London & Home Counties), but I wouldn't reasonably expect the vast majority of the population to do it.

In this case it sounds like the issue is not just about ability/mobility, but safety, if the only walking route is along a 60mph road with no footpath.

 

[30907]

Just now the GWR mobile site told me to transfer by tube, taking 5min

(Sorry, can't manage a screenshot owing to iffy WiFi.)

Edit: now it shows me nothing at all - is someone at GW reading this?!

 

[randyrippley]

People have been killed walking that road. It's a narrow sunken hollowway with 20 foot banks and a 60mph limit. No street lights.
Death trap.

 

[3141]

Is a 2 mile walk reasonable to offer? Yes.
Will it be reasonable to expect everybody to accept that journey? No.

Out of interest, if you bought a ticket from Axminster to Weymouth against that itinerary, would you be able to claim a taxi fare on the train ticket? I'm guessing not.

I agree that it is "reasonable to offer", but people who use a journey planner are looking to find how you get from A to B by rail and so I think it should be much clearer that this "offer" requires a 2-mile walk along some unsuitable roads. It's unreasonable to expect users to understand that "transfer" means "you'll have to sort out this section of the journey for yourself" or to explore the whole site in order to discover that something called "advanced options" might provide some relevant information.

The much-vaunted artificial intelligence, when available, might be helpful in situations such as this, but I expect it will instead be used to provide many kinds of additional facilities which are at best peripheral to the principal function of an online journey planner. Currently, AI stands for artificial imbecile.

 

[infobleep]

Is the connection time currently set to allow for people to walk?

 

[Qwerty133]

It's a walk outside the bus operating times; from BRTimes.com:

I’m not sure that the data there is much better. Not only is it extremely unlikely that it would be possible to leave one station walk to the bus stop wait for a bus to arrive travel to the bus stop outside the other station and walk to the entrance within 5 minutes but if it was genuinely a 5 minute walk very few people would bother with a bus in the first place.

 

[yorkie]

I’m not sure that the data there is much better. Not only is it extremely unlikely that it would be possible to leave one station walk to the bus stop wait for a bus to arrive travel to the bus stop outside the other station and walk to the entrance within 5 minutes but if it was genuinely a 5 minute walk very few people would bother with a bus in the first place.

You misunderstand; this data is just the nominal time between stations and is added to the interchange time for both.

In the case of Glasgow Central & Queen Street that's 15 + 5 + 10 = 30 minutes; ample time for the slowest of walkers or someone who is slow to the bus and just misses one.

 

[richw]

Is the connection time currently set to allow for people to walk?

The itinerary I would follow if I opted for the train route is attached as a screenshot.

Arrive Yeovil junction from Axminster at 1228, leave pen mill at 1332. 50 minute journey time scheduled for the transfer plus 14 minutes station time.

 

[alistairlees]

The data between Yeovil Junction and Yeovil Pen Mill is not a "walk" option, despite what some people may think. It is a "transfer".

The issue is that journey planners are not, on their front ends, making it clear what this means. Somoe, such as the GWR app above, are misleadingly suggesting it is a walk (through the use of a 'walk' symbol); and others, such as National Rail, are misleadingly suggesting it might be a bus (with space for a bicycle?), again through the use of symbols.

The issue right now is one of presentation, rather than data.

Of course, that could be improved further with better data too (e.g. actual bus schedules), and ticket acceptance on these...

 

[MikeWM]

It's not so much the distance but the nature of the route, which is a busy country lane until you get to the edge of Yeovil. You'd be walking along a 60 mph road with no footways.

Yeah, I'm fairly stubborn enough to militantly walk in the road when necessary, but last time I considered doing this connection I looked at Google StreetView and thought 'hmm, perhaps not' and ended up planning to get one of the infrequent Junction -> Pen Mill services instead. I had enough time while I was there to wander out of Junction to see the start of the route after the pavement runs out, and realised that was probably the correct decision!

It should be super-clear that this isn't really a walking option.

 

[Krokodil]

Out of interest, are there any other places where 'Transfer' would routinely be offered as a way to get between stations?

Man Picc to Man Vic, when the Ordsall Chord isn't the quickest route. Some tickets for journeys within Manchester (e.g. Rochdale to Manchester Airport) have "via Metrolink CTLZ" to allow for your existing ticket to be used. No use if you're going to Leeds and the through services from Picc aren't running.

Some sites produce a split to get around this: MIA->MCZ, MCV->LDS.

 

[CyrusWuff]

The issue right now is one of presentation, rather than data.

Of course, that could be improved further with better data too (e.g. actual bus schedules), and ticket acceptance on these...

Though that would, of course, require a TOC to either get the buses added into the timetable database (the preferred option) or add them in manually...and then maintain the data.

 

[WestAnglian]

I have definitely had suggestions to use the tram from West Croydon to East Croydon when travelling Haggerston-Lewes before, although they may have been from Google Maps rather than NRE.
ISTR for that specific journey I have had various combinations of changes including New Cross and walk to New Cross Gate when there were delays, as well as changes at NXG and Norwood Jn, changes only at one or t'other and the tram (although I have usually walked from West to East Croydon).

I've had the OJP telling me to walk from Tottenham Hale to Seven Sisters. I don't know why, as it wasn't nighttime. And they thought I could do it in 5 minutes.

 

[CyrusWuff]

I've had the OJP telling me to walk from Tottenham Hale to Seven Sisters. I don't know why, as it wasn't nighttime. And they thought I could do it in 5 minutes.

Can't explain that either, given the only fixed links between the two are by Tube! Seven Sisters' only walking fixed link is the logical one to South Tottenham, which is given as 7 minutes (plus 5 minutes interchange time at Seven Sisters and 2 minutes at South Tottenham.)

 

[DynamicSpirit]

On over-optimistic fixed links, while looking through the fixed links file yesterday in response to this thread, I found this:

M=TRANSFER,O=CWX,D=LBG,T=18,S=0001,E=0659,P=4,R=0000001
M=TRANSFER,O=CWX,D=LBG,T=18,S=0001,E=0629,P=4,R=0000010
M=TRANSFER,O=CWX,D=LBG,T=18,S=0001,E=0529,P=4,R=1111100

This specifies a passengers-make-their-own-way transfer between Canary Wharf and London Bridge at night, and suggests 18 minutes as the time to do that in!!!!