Khan manifesto: Overground lines to be named - what would you call them?

[BrianW]

We're saving that for when the Northern gets split - "Misery" and "Drain".

Maybe a bit 'offline' but if/when the Northern Line gets split there will be a lot mote interchanging at Camden Town, Euston and Kennington, rather than wait on platform at origin for the next train going your way- I dare say this will be taken into account.

Actually this is relevant to the Overground as eg the current ex-Stratfords go (at present) 2ph to Richmond and 4ph to Clapham Jct (I think). Representation as one line or two is important. I know nothing about the interoperabilty of Overground stock across its component parts- I'm often confused by a bus 'borrowed' from another route so the wrong 'identity'. For that reason I'm rather drawn to a route number, readily changed on matrix display (Or destination blinds as were!).

No. No more colours. It'll just bulk things out when two or more lines run the same route.






I get the idea that it's about connectivity, but it very clearly says "Tube Map" on the front, yet shows the Emirates Air Line, which I feel confident in saying has bog-all to do with the Underground. Although it has been going down the tubes for years.

It's now halfway between Beck's lovely idea for a diagrammatic map of London's Underground system and Beck's interesting idea of a complete diagrammatic London Connections map. Strip the diagram back to what it used to be but then do a medium-sized version to include Overground, trams, even cycle superhighways. With legible text for those of use who can't manage anything smaller than eight points. Harrumph.

On topic: they shouldn't be named anything, but definitely don't name them after single destinations. We're doing something like that in Leeds now for the buses, and it's cnfusing cathing an Old Farnley Line bus when heading away from Old Farnley into Leeds and beyond.

I like the idea of colours but it got difficult when the Victoria light blue came in and I would need some convincing about turquoise, light and dark green and yellow/gold etc. The 'pallette' is a lot more limiting than a route number, which people manage to master.

 

[PTR 444]

I like the idea of colours but it got difficult when the Victoria light blue came in and I would need some convincing about turquoise, light and dark green and yellow/gold etc. The 'pallette' is a lot more limiting than a route number, which people manage to master.

Hence why I tried to pick colours that haven’t been used by any TfL line on the tube map as of yet. The turquoise would be lighter than the Victoria Line blue, while my chosen shade of green would be lighter than the District Line but darker than Tramlink. As for my choice of dark purple for Romford - Upminster, that was deliberate in order to relate it to the lighter purple of Crossrail which it connects to, so passengers can view it as a branch of said line.

I suppose the magenta formerly used for the Metropolitan Line could also be reused for one of these lines, since that colour has remained vacant for over 30 years now.

 

[Wolfie]

1. The fact that the UK speaks English as the first language is neither here or there, 2. That's to be expected of right wing toilet paper, 3. What's so difficult about having a line labelled U1 or U2 as the U could just as well stand for UNDERGROUND and 4. Getting rid of line names makes it simple for tourists as they can ask for U4 for example instead of trying to pronounce Bakerloo.

Mind you the UK is so set in it's ways that change even change for the better is detested, I mean renaming the Euston to Watford Junction service to S1 is better then calling it some silly name like the Harlequin line.

Millions of Londoners, who are quite happy with the current tube line names which have worked well enough for in excess of 100 years, should change to suit tourists (whether domestic or overseas) huh. I think not.
Re your point three the issue wouldn't be with "U1" etc but with "S1" etc - we don't have S-bahns (nor a tradition of referring to "surface" lines - indeed by your logic the Circle, Hammersmith and City, District and Metropolitan lines probably should have "S" and not "U" numbers).
Re your last para in many ways l agree BUT lots of others wouldn't. It's not necessarily the case that the way that things is done overseas is always better.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Millions of Londoners, who are quite happy with the current tube line names which have worked well enough for in excess of 100 years, should change to suit tourists (whether domestic or overseas) huh. I think not.
Re your point three the issue wouldn't be with "U1" etc but with "S1" etc - we don't have S-bahns (nor a tradition of referring to "surface" lines - indeed by your logic the Circle, Hammersmith and City, District and Metropolitan lines probably should have "S" and not "U" numbers).
Re your last para in many ways l agree BUT lots of others wouldn't. It's not necessarily the case that the way that things is done overseas is always better.

I wouldn't get fixated on S being the prefix, it could just as well be O (i.e. Overground) or R (Rail).

I'm not clear why we couldn't have those *and* names. A lot of bus routes do.

 

[Wolfie]

Hence why I tried to pick colours that haven’t been used by any TfL line on the tube map as of yet. The turquoise would be lighter than the Victoria Line blue, while my chosen shade of green would be lighter than the District Line but darker than Tramlink. As for my choice of dark purple for Romford - Upminster, that was deliberate in order to relate it to the lighter purple of Crossrail which it connects to, so passengers can view it as a branch of said line.

I suppose the magenta formerly used for the Metropolitan Line could also be reused for one of these lines, since that colour has remained vacant for over 30 years now.

The problem is that the variation in some of those colours is sufficiently marginal to cause issues to those with less than perfect sight. That's before tolerance for printing (let alone fading due to sun etc) is even considered.

I wouldn't get fixated on S being the prefix, it could just as well be O (i.e. Overground) or R (Rail).

I'm not clear why we couldn't have those *and* names. A lot of bus routes do.

To be clear l do agree that the current situation with respect to the Overground is less than ideal and l have no problem in principle with sensible numbering. Changing the tube almost for the sake of it though....

 

[Llandudno]

Hmm, this could be interesting:

Greta Thunberg Line
Chris Whitty Line
Captain Tom Line
George Floyd Line
Jimmy Greaves Line
Nelson Mandela Line
Diane Abbott Line
Meghan Markle Line

I sure Lord Mayor Khan has plenty of similar suggestions!

 

[Wolfie]

Hmm, this could be interesting:

Greta Thunberg Line
Chris Whitty Line
Captain Tom Line
George Floyd Line
Jimmy Greaves Line
Nelson Mandela Line
Diane Abbott Line
Meghan Markle Line

I sure Lord Mayor Khan has plenty of similar suggestions!

You been reading the Express? It came up with some equally ridiculous suggestions. What they'd probably like is:
Nigel Farage line
Oswald Moseley line....

Oh, and Sadiq Khan, who much to the doubtless disgust (tough!) of some non-Londoners is on course to be re-elected by a landslide, isn't a "Lord mayor". That term is only applied in the City of London. Some googling shows William Russell to be the current incumbent.

 

[Llandudno]

You been reading the Express? It came up with some equally ridiculous suggestions. What they'd probably like is:
Nigel Farage line
Oswald Moseley line....

Oh, and Sadiq Khan, who much to the doubtless disgust (tough!) of some non-Londoners is on course to be re-elected by a landslide, isn't a "Lord mayor". That term is only applied in the City of London. Some googling shows William Russell to be the current incumbent.

I have never bought the Daily Express, and had I known that the Express had published a similar list, I certainly wouldn’t have!

Has the Express found Lord Lucan yet, and are they predicting a Heat Wave/Blizzard/Monsoon for next weekend yet!

 

[Wolfie]

I have never bought the Daily Express, and had I known that the Express had published a similar list, I certainly wouldn’t have!

Has the Express found Lord Lucan yet, and are they predicting a Heat Wave/Blizzard/Monsoon for next weekend yet!

Apologies for the unjust accusation then. You've obviously seen their headlines, lol.

 

[BrianW]

Buses seem to work ok with route numbers!

 

[NorthKent1989]

I prefer line names over route numbers.

For decades many referred to the East London line and North London line as just those names, many still do call the Croydon to Islington line the East London line or the tube, and that’s years after it ceased being part of the official tube network.

For lines that make up the orbital services the names are obvious but it’s harder to name lines like the Euston to Watford and the Goblin lines to something that will take off

 

[bramling]

1. The fact that the UK speaks English as the first language is neither here or there, 2. That's to be expected of right wing toilet paper, 3. What's so difficult about having a line labelled U1 or U2 as the U could just as well stand for UNDERGROUND and 4. Getting rid of line names makes it simple for tourists as they can ask for U4 for example instead of trying to pronounce Bakerloo.

Mind you the UK is so set in it's ways that change even change for the better is detested, I mean renaming the Euston to Watford Junction service to S1 is better then calling it some silly name like the Harlequin line.

This is the trouble when a politician, evidently scraping the proverbial barrel when it comes to looking for stuff to put in his manifesto, sticks their nose into something like railways.

It isn’t as straightforward as it might outwardly appear, especially when some of LO’s services finish at the arbitrary mayoral boundary. So we could have “Part of the Lea Valley Line”!

In any case, I’m sure LO do already use line names in some of their publicity. I’ve certainly seen timetables headed with “East London Line”.

I’m not sure there’s that much of a case to do anything to be honest. The current setup doesn’t seem to be dissuading people from using LO.

No doubt in a couple of years time we can look forward to “The Mayor of London, Sadiq Khan, has named all the Overground routes to make it easier for you to get around” posters. I suppose it’s better than “The Mayor of London, Sadiq Khan, has almost bankrupted TfL”!

 

[Wolfie]

This is the trouble when a politician, evidently scraping the proverbial barrel when it comes to looking for stuff to put in his manifesto, sticks their nose into something like railways.

It isn’t as straightforward as it might outwardly appear, especially when some of LO’s services finish at the arbitrary mayoral boundary. So we could have “Part of the Lea Valley Line”!

In any case, I’m sure LO do already use line names in some of their publicity. I’ve certainly seen timetables headed with “East London Line”.

I’m not sure there’s that much of a case to do anything to be honest. The current setup doesn’t seem to be dissuading people from using LO.

No doubt in a couple of years time we can look forward to “The Mayor of London, Sadiq Khan, has named all the Overground routes to make it easier for you to get around” posters. I suppose it’s better than “The Mayor of London, Sadiq Khan, has almost bankrupted TfL”!

Re your last sentence or the more factually correct "Mayor Sadiq Khan had restored TfL's finances from the poor state that his predecessor left them in before CV struck". Your quote from the CCO playbook finds BoZo facing referral for a breach of Purdah....

 

[Aictos]

This is the trouble when a politician, evidently scraping the proverbial barrel when it comes to looking for stuff to put in his manifesto, sticks their nose into something like railways.

It isn’t as straightforward as it might outwardly appear, especially when some of LO’s services finish at the arbitrary mayoral boundary. So we could have “Part of the Lea Valley Line”!

In any case, I’m sure LO do already use line names in some of their publicity. I’ve certainly seen timetables headed with “East London Line”.

I’m not sure there’s that much of a case to do anything to be honest. The current setup doesn’t seem to be dissuading people from using LO.

No doubt in a couple of years time we can look forward to “The Mayor of London, Sadiq Khan, has named all the Overground routes to make it easier for you to get around” posters. I suppose it’s better than “The Mayor of London, Sadiq Khan, has almost bankrupted TfL”!

Well how difficult is it for people to navigate the London Overground network that the lines need to be named rather then just leave it as it is?

 

[Domh245]

I prefer line names over route numbers.

Agreed, on the caveat that the names are either geographical or historical. Lines named after people (bar monarchs - at a push) I'm not a fan of

It isn’t as straightforward as it might outwardly appear, especially when some of LO’s services finish at the arbitrary mayoral boundary. So we could have “Part of the Lea Valley Line”!

Which services are those? I thought that the Lea Valley services haven't been altered since transferring from GA

 

[NorthKent1989]

Agreed, on the caveat that the names are either geographical or historical. Lines named after people (bar monarchs - at a push) I'm not a fan of



Which services are those? I thought that the Lea Valley services haven't been altered since transferring from GA

I think with the Lea Valley lines @bramling is referring to the fact that LO only operates part of that network group of railway lines, The Chingford line and the Cheshunt & Enfield via Seven Sisters line, but it doesn’t operate the Tottenham branch nor the Stratford to Tottenham route, which is fair because trains along these routes run further out to Hertford, Bishops Stortford, Stansted and Cambridge.

I think for the Tottenham route as well it was anticipated at the time that this would one day become part of CrossRail 2, so it wasn’t taken in house just yet

 

[cle]

I think with the Lea Valley lines @bramling is referring to the fact that LO only operates part of that network group of railway lines, The Chingford line and the Cheshunt & Enfield via Seven Sisters line, but it doesn’t operate the Tottenham branch nor the Stratford to Tottenham route, which is fair because trains along these routes run further out to Hertford, Bishops Stortford, Stansted and Cambridge.

I think for the Tottenham route as well it was anticipated at the time that this would one day become part of CrossRail 2, so it wasn’t taken in house just yet

Also as those are the services out to Hertford East and beyond. The Seven Sisters service by and large are Enfield of course and Cheshunt. That partial network going to LO first was a little messy.

Ironically, Stratford - Meridian Water could genuinely be an Overground route, operating out of the the Stratford LO station area and being solely within London. Especially if it became 4tph shuttle, vs heading further at 2tph.

 

[bramling]

Also as those are the services out to Hertford East and beyond. The Seven Sisters service by and large are Enfield of course and Cheshunt. That partial network going to LO first was a little messy.

Ironically, Stratford - Meridian Water could genuinely be an Overground route, operating out of the the Stratford LO station area and being solely within London. Especially if it became 4tph shuttle, vs heading further at 2tph.

I think the current service pattern was essentially set by National Express during their tenure. Going back a few years, I seem to remember the Hertford East service was run by 315s and went via Southbury. I presume the Tottenham Hale line stopping service was something like a Liverpool Street to Bishop’s Stortford service.

Whilst the current service pattern seems to work reasonably well, it is a bit odd to have some of it LO, some TOC.

 

[Mikey C]

I think the current service pattern was essentially set by National Express during their tenure. Going back a few years, I seem to remember the Hertford East service was run by 315s and went via Southbury. I presume the Tottenham Hale line stopping service was something like a Liverpool Street to Bishop’s Stortford service.

Whilst the current service pattern seems to work reasonably well, it is a bit odd to have some of it LO, some TOC.

Yes, it's not an entirely logical split really, seeing that the Tottenham Hale has stoppers just like the other 2 Lea Valley branches

 

[NorthKent1989]

Yes, it's not an entirely logical split really, seeing that the Tottenham Hale has stoppers just like the other 2 Lea Valley branches

Not really familiar with the Lea Valley lines but they’re sort of like a North East London version of the South Eastern metro routes out of CX/CS, with multiple branches, if I understand correctly? A mixture of stopping an long distanced semi fast trains, I always saw the Tottenham Hale branch as being similar to the Woolwich and Sidcup lines in that they’re the longer distance lines.

Also as those are the services out to Hertford East and beyond. The Seven Sisters service by and large are Enfield of course and Cheshunt. That partial network going to LO first was a little messy.

Ironically, Stratford - Meridian Water could genuinely be an Overground route, operating out of the the Stratford LO station area and being solely within London. Especially if it became 4tph shuttle, vs heading further at 2tph.

Yes the Stratford to Meridian Water could be taken “in house” maybe if finances are better for TfL this could be the case.

 

[Rail Blues]

As someone with colour blindness the tube map is already a cluttered and confusing mess, anything that adds to this would be very unwelcome.

That said, I can't remember oblast used a tube map with Google maps and whatnot.

 

[bramling]

Not really familiar with the Lea Valley lines but they’re sort of like a North East London version of the South Eastern metro routes out of CX/CS, with multiple branches, if I understand correctly? A mixture of stopping an long distanced semi fast trains, I always saw the Tottenham Hale branch as being similar to the Woolwich and Sidcup lines in that they’re the longer distance lines.



Yes the Stratford to Meridian Water could be taken “in house” maybe if finances are better for TfL this could be the case.

It depends how one looks at it. Hackney Downs to Cheshunt via Tottenham Hale is no less “metro” than via Southbury, except that in this case the train happens to continue to Hertford East. It could just as easily be the Southbury train which does, as has indeed been the case in the not-too-distant past (though the orientation of the bay at Cheshunt does favour the Southbury service terminating there).

So thanks to the track layout at Cheshunt, as opposed to Sadiq Khan’s generosity, White Hart Lane and Southbury get LO, whilst Ponders End and Enfield Lock don’t. Hardly logical, hence my sarcastic comment about how any line name for the route would be “part of...”.

Great Northern would be similar - it’s hard to think of any suitable names for those routes. “Great Northern Line” would hardly be appropriate, so really we’re down to “Welwyn & Hertford Line”, though of course that might not appeal as both those places would be outside London.

I suppose whilst everyone is bickering over line names, it takes the scrutiny away from more pressing mayoral policy issues...

 

[NorthKent1989]

It depends how one looks at it. Hackney Downs to Cheshunt via Tottenham Hale is no less “metro” than via Southbury, except that in this case the train happens to continue to Hertford East. It could just as easily be the Southbury train which does, as has indeed been the case in the not-too-distant past (though the orientation of the bay at Cheshunt does favour the Southbury service terminating there).

So thanks to the track layout at Cheshunt, as opposed to Sadiq Khan’s generosity, White Hart Lane and Southbury get LO, whilst Ponders End and Enfield Lock don’t. Hardly logical, hence my sarcastic comment about how any line name for the route would be “part of...”.

Great Northern would be similar - it’s hard to think of any suitable names for those routes. “Great Northern Line” would hardly be appropriate, so really we’re down to “Welwyn & Hertford Line”, though of course that might not appeal as both those places would be outside London.

I suppose whilst everyone is bickering over line names, it takes the scrutiny away from more pressing mayoral policy issues...

Yeah In reality who in London is really concerned with what name belongs so which Overground line with everything going on.

I just hope they come up with sensible names that roll of the tounge easily

 

[cle]

Thinking on it again, could it ever be worth it to extend the Overground from Stratford to Meridian Water - say every second train? It's the slow way round to the west (vs cutting Tottenham to H&I) but perhaps there is some purpose. Chingford would likely make more sense for LO, if ever done - folks hate that on here.

 

[Ianno87]

It depends how one looks at it. Hackney Downs to Cheshunt via Tottenham Hale is no less “metro” than via Southbury, except that in this case the train happens to continue to Hertford East. It could just as easily be the Southbury train which does, as has indeed been the case in the not-too-distant past (though the orientation of the bay at Cheshunt does favour the Southbury service terminating there).

Since the platform extensions were done at Cheshunt for 12 car trains, the bay is now only accessible from the Southbury Loop (the crossover that used to permit access from the main line was removed to provide space for the extension)

 

[EllieAquitrain]

My very nitpicky fear of the O prefix with numbers is that people will assume it's a zero, and get very confused when after the ninth line 'O9' the next isn't '10'...

 

[Wolfie]

My very nitpicky fear of the O prefix with numbers is that people will assume it's a zero, and get very confused when after the ninth line 'O9' the next isn't '10'...

That thought crossed my mind too.

 

[HSTEd]

Well do Overground lines have to get solid colour bars on the map like they are underground lines?

Couldn't they keep the split line used now (and for Emirates Air Line, the DLR etc) and just change the colours?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

For Overground, numbers probably are the best way forward. The names for the Underground work because they've had them for decades- if you were building the network now you probably wouldn't pick those names. Naming also gives the opportunity for political messaging (e.g. Elizabeth Line)... no doubt with today's news, there'll be a campaign to call one of the Overground routes the "Duke of Edinburgh Line" (preferably the Watford DC, just for extra confusion at Euston!).
As mentioned above, O isn't the ideal prefix letter, so perhaps "OGxx" or "LOxx" would be a compromise that doesn't require an understanding of German public transport nomenclature.

(Please note: the next suggestion is not for serious discussion. Please do not attempt to board)
Alternatively, as one of the routes is already known as the "Goblin" we could expand on that and use other fantastical names. Elf line? Troll line? Orc line? Admittedly Dwarf line might be a bit problematic, but Sprite line raises the possibility of corporate sponsorship...

 

[D365]

Well how difficult is it for people to navigate the London Overground network that the lines need to be named rather then just leave it as it is?

In what way does the current map do anything useful? It makes zero distinction between Overground routes.