Khan manifesto: Overground lines to be named - what would you call them?

[Mikey C]

In what way does the current map do anything useful? It makes zero distinction between Overground routes.

It's not's clear when when TfL give service updates either, as the screens tend to list the Underground lines, then just "Overground".

 

[Wolfie]

Well how difficult is it for people to navigate the London Overground network that the lines need to be named rather then just leave it as it is?

Navigating the Overground is one thing. Disruption is quite another. The number of times l see disruption messages for "the Overground' which turn out to be nowhere near where l'm going/am likely to go....

In what way does the current map do anything useful? It makes zero distinction between Overground routes.

Yup

It's not's clear when when TfL give service updates either, as the screens tend to list the Underground lines, then just "Overground".

Yup

 

[Starmill]

Names for lines would be quite consistent with the Elizabeth line, where TfL Rail is more correctly described as the mode which includes the Elizabeth line and the to be named London Overground lines. They won't share the Underground's roundel convention I guess but it's probably easier to recognise.

 

[PTR 444]

After the events of last Friday, I wonder how long it will be before we get a “Phillip Line”?

 

[Wolfie]

After the events of last Friday, I wonder how long it will be before we get a “Phillip Line”?

Would have to run parallel to the Elizabeth line for most of it's length lol....

 

[PTR 444]

Would have to run parallel to the Elizabeth line for most of it's length lol....

Well it is essentially two separate services (Heathrow - Abbey Wood and Reading - Shenfield) so perhaps the name could go to one of these...

 

[MotCO]

Just looking at where the Overground goes, and taking on board comments about needing to show separate parts of the line:

1. Gospel Oak to Barking - Must be the Goblin Line
2. Gospel Oak to Willesden - the WillGo line (after WILLesden and GOspel oak)
3. Willesden to Richmond - the Acton line (or even Action line!)
4. Willesden to Clapham Junction - the Junction Line
5. Clapham Junction to Peckham Rye - the Danish Line (via Denmark Hill)
6. Peckham Rye to Whitechapel - the Canadian Line (via Canada Water)
7. Whitechapel to Highbury & Islington - the HiLine (after HIghbury and islington LINE)
8. Gospel Oak to Stratford - the Gost Line, pronounced Ghost Line (GOspel oak to STratford)


Whatever happens, one line cannot be the Khan Line!

 

[D365]

Just looking at where the Overground goes, and taking on board comments about needing to show separate parts of the line:

1. Gospel Oak to Barking - Must be the Goblin Line
2. Gospel Oak to Willesden - the WillGo line (after WILLesden and GOspel oak)
3. Willesden to Richmond - the Acton line (or even Action line!)
4. Willesden to Clapham Junction - the Junction Line
5. Clapham Junction to Peckham Rye - the Danish Line (via Denmark Hill)
6. Peckham Rye to Whitechapel - the Canadian Line (via Canada Water)
7. Whitechapel to Highbury & Islington - the HiLine (after HIghbury and islington LINE)
8. Gospel Oak to Stratford - the Gost Line, pronounced Ghost Line (GOspel oak to STratford)


Whatever happens, one line cannot be the Khan Line!

I’m very confused. Stratford services don’t usually terminate at Gospel Oak, nor do services terminate at Whitechapel. Has this changed recently?

 

[EllieAquitrain]

I’m very confused. Stratford services don’t usually terminate at Gospel Oak, nor do services terminate at Whitechapel. Has this changed recently?

I suspect they've misunderstood how London line nomenclature works. They're suggesting names for various sections of track on the Overground network, in the same way that sections of the national network have distinct names, and trains run over multiple sections (eg no train runs the entire length of the B&H but terminates at either end).

 

[MotCO]

I suspect they've misunderstood how London line nomenclature works. They're suggesting names for various sections of track on the Overground network, in the same way that sections of the national network have distinct names, and trains run over multiple sections (eg no train runs the entire length of the B&H but terminates at either end).

Yes indeeed - I was naming sections of track since other posters felt that a disruption on one part of a whole line might not affect passengers on another part of the line without knowing where the disruption was. By breaking each line into different segments, I thought this would be clearer. I obviously failed .

 

[D365]

By breaking each line into different segments, I thought this would be clearer. I obviously failed .

No you're right, it's my mistake - didn't read your post properly!

 

[PR1Berske]

I suspect they've misunderstood how London line nomenclature works. They're suggesting names for various sections of track on the Overground network, in the same way that sections of the national network have distinct names, and trains run over multiple sections (eg no train runs the entire length of the B&H but terminates at either end).

This response has triggered a memory about the naming of routes in the UK, it might have been a very long time ago on here. In other countries, particularly the US, named lines are the norm, while in the UK it's much rarer. I can't remember the full details of the distant memory, but it was something like observing that if you boarded any given train at, say, Preston, you wouldn't necessarily know if you were on a Blackpool train, London train, Ormskirk train, etc., because we only have services, we don't have named lines.

A vague recollection mind.

 

[leytongabriel]

The core Orbital services will be called the "Ken" line, seeing that the Overground started under him. They will be coloured Red for Red Ken!

The GOBLIN will be called the "Boris" line, seeing that Electrification of it was authorised under him. It will be coloured Tory Blue

The Watford to Euston line will be called the "Elton" line after the singer

The Liverpool Street services via Seven Sisters will be called the "Spurs" line, and white and blue, while the line via Walthamstow will be called the "East 17" line after the band

I'll let Sadiq have the Romford to Upminster branch

GOBLIN folk would be less than amused at the 'Boris' line - didn't he famously turn up at Harringay Green Lanes for not one but two cancelled Silverlink trains and stomp off? After which he wouldn't support anything to do with the line.

When I was growing up in North London we always talked about the 'Barking Line' pre-GOBLIN.

 

[camflyer]

One of the most important things about any public transport system is how easy it is for visitors to understand and use. Adding more names to lines may be popular with locals but there is a danger that it just becomes more confusing to everyone else. "Take Overground line 1" is a lot simpler than "Take the GOBLIN"

Around the world I found Berlin to have the easiest networks to navigate as every line is just a letter and a number.

 

[HelloAll]

One of the most important things about any public transport system is how easy it is for visitors to understand and use. Adding more names to lines may be popular with locals but there is a danger that it just becomes more confusing to everyone else. "Take Overground line 1" is a lot simpler than "Take the GOBLIN"

Around the world I found Berlin to have the easiest networks to navigate as every line is just a letter and a number.

I second that. Overall, though seems like a weird thing for one to use to boost their manifesto

 

[Domh245]

One of the most important things about any public transport system is how easy it is for visitors to understand and use. Adding more names to lines may be popular with locals but there is a danger that it just becomes more confusing to everyone else. "Take Overground line 1" is a lot simpler than "Take the GOBLIN"

Around the world I found Berlin to have the easiest networks to navigate as every line is just a letter and a number.

The overground is a predominantly suburban railway though - it doesn't need to be particularly "visitor friendly".

I'd also query whether "overground line 1" is any better than "GOBLIN", to use your examples - in both cases the line has a unique identifier which is the key bit, the 'mode' is utterly irrelevant because of the integrated PAYG setup. I would argue that having a full and unique name is a lot easier than mode//number - it's a lot harder to forget something like "Bakerloo" than something where only one symbol is different like "Underground 1/2/3/4/etc"

 

[camflyer]

The overground is a predominantly suburban railway though - it doesn't need to be particularly "visitor friendly".

I'd also query whether "overground line 1" is any better than "GOBLIN", to use your examples - in both cases the line has a unique identifier which is the key bit, the 'mode' is utterly irrelevant because of the integrated PAYG setup. I would argue that having a full and unique name is a lot easier than mode//number - it's a lot harder to forget something like "Bakerloo" than something where only one symbol is different like "Underground 1/2/3/4/etc"

Bakerloo may mean something to you but it's just a meaningless collection of letters to non-English speakers (or non-Latin script readers)

 

[ta-toget]

The overground is a predominantly suburban railway though - it doesn't need to be particularly "visitor friendly".

I'd also query whether "overground line 1" is any better than "GOBLIN", to use your examples - in both cases the line has a unique identifier which is the key bit, the 'mode' is utterly irrelevant because of the integrated PAYG setup. I would argue that having a full and unique name is a lot easier than mode//number - it's a lot harder to forget something like "Bakerloo" than something where only one symbol is different like "Underground 1/2/3/4/etc"

Bakerloo may mean something to you but it's just a meaningless collection of letters to non-English speakers (or non-Latin script readers)

Indeed, you do find people referring to the lines by their colour on the map, although that gets harder as more lines are added, as you start having to distinguish between shades of similar colours and patterns (the hollow lines etc) I can't recall at the moment whether the ones I've encountered were foreign tourists, Londoners, or visitors from elsewhere in the UK, though.

 

[Domh245]

Bakerloo may mean something to you but it's just a meaningless collection of letters to non-English speakers (or non-Latin script readers)

It doesn't have to mean anything though - it just has to be unique and easily identifiable. A multisyllabic name like bakerloo is very easily unique when compared with other LU lines. They could call it the haina maana line, which would mean nothing to most non Swahili speaking people, but as long as you hear that noise in the multitude of announcements (or can recognise the spelling) you know you've got the right line. Indeed, having a longer name would make it easier to catch a snippet of the name than a single number.

You've got a fair point when it comes to written form, but even then you're at no better a place than the current setup (how does a non-latin script reading person know that they need to take the Victoria line for example?) - and arguably an even worse place if you then start rolling out mode/number systems to the existing lines as well - "which somethingground 2 line was it I needed?"

 

[Mikey C]

I am cynical of the sort of names Sadiq's "focus groups" will come up with, but then to be fair I'd be equally cynical if Boris as Mayor had done the same thing, bearing in mind how Elizabeth Line was sprung out of nowhere

 

[camflyer]

I am cynical of the sort of names Sadiq's "focus groups" will come up with, but then to be fair I'd be equally cynical if Boris as Mayor had done the same thing, bearing in mind how Elizabeth Line was sprung out of nowhere

The first time I heard the suggestion I assumed it was a late April Fool.

There are many things which could be done to improve transport in London but I don't see how renaming lines in the interests of "diversity" is one of them.

 

[bramling]

Since when did we name railway lines after people?

 

[Wolfie]

Since when did we name railway lines after people?

The Victoria line, the Elizabeth line?

 

[bramling]

The Victoria line, the Elizabeth line?

I think the Victoria Line takes its name from serving Victoria station.

As for Elizabeth Line, another daft mayoral idea!

 

[Wolfie]

I think the Victoria Line takes its name from serving Victoria station.

As for Elizabeth Line, another daft mayoral idea!

... and how was Victoria station named??? After Victoria Street, which itself was named after guess who...

 

[NorthOxonian]

They could do worse than naming the East London Line the Brunel Line. That would both relate to the line's history as well as ticking diversity boxes (since it would either be named for a refugee or his son).

 

[Wolfie]

They could do worse than naming the East London Line the Brunel Line. That would both relate to the line's history as well as ticking diversity boxes (since it would either be named for a refugee or his son).

Given that the tunnel is a key element of the line that's not a bad call at all.

 

[bramling]

... and how was Victoria station named??? After Victoria Street, which itself was named after guess who...

Yes but Victoria station isn’t a railway line, is it?

For most people the significance of Victoria Line, if there’s any at all, is that it goes to Victoria and that is one of its busiest stations. No doubt historically it’s also partly that Victoria was poorly served by the Underground until that time - in those days getting there from central London must have been rather difficult, with the nearest District & Circle interchanges with other lines at the time being South Kensington or Embankment.

I don’t think many people get on the Victoria Line and think of royalty. Indeed it may have only come about because the alternative “Walvic Line” was regarded as sounding rather unfortunate!

 

[Wolfie]

Yes but Victoria station isn’t a railway line, is it?

No, but the tube line is indirectly named after a former monarch. Indeed l believe that was part of BoZo's justification for the 'Elizabeth' line....

 

[bramling]

No, but the tube line is indirectly named after a former monarch. Indeed l believe that was part of BoZo's justification for the 'Elizabeth' line....

As you say, indirectly. Agreed that Elizabeth Line clearly *does* have connections to a monarch (let’s hope she’s still with us when it opens), and for me at least it sounds rather cringeworthy.

If we’re going for naming Overground lines at all, and I’m not convinced it’s useful nor particularly practical, it should be strictly geographical or descriptive. Why on earth would we want anything other than “North London Line” for example? And is Goblin that common outside of railway enthusiast circles?

Given how Khan seems to love promoting his own name, I presume one of them would be the “Mayor of London, Sadiq Khan, Line”?!