Livery under Great British Railways

[signed]

Aren't most logos and liveries from private operators, a trademark owned by their current operator? If so, they will need to go if GBR comes in

I don't think that's the case since every operator on OLR (apart from LNER) have kept the same liveries as their previous private operator's. But that's still very much a possibility.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Aren't most logos and liveries from private operators, a trademark owned by their current operator? If so, they will need to go if GBR comes in

In more recent franchises it's been a requirement to either use a transferrable neutral name or for the franchisee to bear the cost of rebranding at the end of the contract. Don't know if that extended into National Rail Contracts though.

On the other hand, some brands, most notably Avanti, are now poisoned and continuing them would be unwise.

 

[signed]

On the other hand, some brands, most notably Avanti, are now poisoned and continuing them would be unwise.

Having a Italian name in GBR would also quite be out of place

Let's just hope we don't get a clone of East Coast, though West Coast High Speed wouldn't be that bad

 

[Bletchleyite]

Having a Italian name in GBR would also quite be out of place

Let's just hope we don't get a clone of East Coast, though West Coast High Speed wouldn't be that bad

I think most people want to just see InterCity come back. I see no great reason to have the WCML branded differently to the ECML. The structure of the operation underneath needn't reflect that.

 

[Western Lord]

I am surprised that so many people think that government ownership of TOCs will lead to a return to the blandness of 1970's British Rail. Even BR had moved away from a single livery. People are used to the regional names for their local services and I expect them to remain largely unchanged.

 

[signed]

I am surprised that so many people think that government ownership of TOCs will lead to a return to the blandness of 1970's British Rail. Even BR had moved away from a single livery. People are used to the regional names for their local services and I expect them to remain largely unchanged.

Very hard agree, a regional identity is crucial (and indeed, this is how France, Italy and Germany do it)

 

[Meerkat]

I think most people want to just see InterCity come back. I see no great reason to have the WCML branded differently to the ECML. The structure of the operation underneath needn't reflect that.

Keeping them different insulates them from each other’s problems.
And means the marketing can focus on a particular route‘s best selling points.
Can also help staff motivation if done right

 

[Bletchleyite]

Very hard agree, a regional identity is crucial (and indeed, this is how France, Italy and Germany do it)

Remember their regions are politically analogous to our home nations.

 

[Transilien]

Remember their regions are politically analogous to our home nations

It doesn’t really make sense, the only Region in France that could be seen as analogous to one of our home nations is Britany. The rest of them could be seen as very large council areas that are a part of one ’French`nation more like how Yorkshire is a part of England or Strathclyde is a part of Scotland. I don’t disagree with your assessment of the situation but in my opinion that they should not be seen as analogous to each other.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It doesn’t really make sense, the only Region in France that could be seen as analogous to one of our home nations is Britany. The rest of them could be seen as very large council areas that are a part of one ’French`nation more like how Yorkshire is a part of England or Strathclyde is a part of Scotland. I don’t disagree with your assessment of the situation but in my opinion that they should not be seen as analogous to each other.

Politically they have the sort of power our home nations do - certainly the German Laender. The analogy is where the power sits - or more importantly where the funding does.

French trains and German trains are branded for the region because it's the region that pays for them.

In the UK, the home nation pays for them, so one brand per home nation makes sense.

One can argue for the UK to change in that way, but that's not how it is now.

 

[Transilien]

One can argue for the UK to change in that way, but that's not how it is now.

I feel like that would be harder to change than creating GBR in the first place.

 

[signed]

It doesn’t really make sense, the only Region in France that could be seen as analogous to one of our home nations is Britany. The rest of them could be seen as very large council areas that are a part of one ’French`nation more like how Yorkshire is a part of England or Strathclyde is a part of Scotland. I don’t disagree with your assessment of the situation but in my opinion that they should not be seen as analogous to each other.

Add the Basque Country, but that assessment is fair

 

[Bletchleyite]

I feel like that would be harder to change than creating GBR in the first place.

There's very, very strong opposition to regionalisation in the UK. There's even been referenda on it in the past in which it has been roundly rejected. Indeed the EU's wish to impose it and break up England was one reason for people voting for Brexit.

 

[Transilien]

Add the Basque Country

The French Basque Country much like French Catalonia don’t get their own region like Britany and are instead a part of a larger region. That is why I didn’t put it as similar to a UK home region. Perhaps it’s more a Cornwall situation.

 

[JLH4AC]

There's very, very strong opposition to regionalisation in the UK. There's even been referenda on it in the past in which it has been roundly rejected. Indeed the EU's wish to impose it and break up England was one reason for people voting for Brexit.

The government is just able to force this change though, the North East Combined Authority is effectively what the North East regional assembly would have been, the only notable difference is that only the mayor is directly elected. The earlier Greater London Authority referendum passed with 72% of the vote.

It is impossible to say if the North East England devolution referendum failed because people did not want devolution, the reorganisation of local government was also unpopular and there were justified concerns about the assembly powers being too limited to be useful and it being too centric to Newcastle upon Tyne that local businessman John Elliott was able to campaign on. I am not sure about your claim that the Brexit vote had anything to do with English devolution as Yorkshire and Cornwell where support for English devolution is highest also heavily voted for Brexit and the Government Offices for the English regions that align English regional governance to EU norms had been long abolished by the time of the Brexit referendum with no issues with the EU arising from it.

 

[Pete_uk]

I hope names like GWR and TransPennine Express are kept as these are good marketable brands although they would be different in their operations.

GWR of course do what they do, Intercity, regional and local donkey work.

TPE do 'fast' services across the north.
Northern do the stoppers across the north.

The Southern/Southwestern/Southeastern and is it LTS (?) could merge.

It's across the midlands that things would get awkward.

But that's more a structural thing, not livery.

 

[Meerkat]

In the UK, the home nation pays for them, so one brand per home nation makes sense.

Who pays is only one reason for branding. It’s about marketing, and employee belonging.

 

[Transilien]

Who pays is only one reason for branding. It’s about marketing, and employee belonging.

Also passenger belonging

 

[Trains_At_2023]

Will, if successful, Labour plan to strip all current liveries and repaint everything into a similar scheme? What sort of logistics would have to be enabled to allow this to happen?

My personal opinion on this - I think it would be a waste of time and resources, passengers are already used to the separate operators and I believe just utilising the current branding with new names (GBR Southern, GBR Northern, GBR South West, etc etc) and better ticketing would be much easier for both passengers and government. Additionally, these days with time between major maintenance work on trains (when they usually get repainted) the amount of time it would take to get everything switched over to new colours you'd undermine it completely. TLDR resources could be better spent elsewhere

I do agree, everyone who has been on a train will be used to the colour schemes, get rid of them and call them intercity or regional won't be good. I'm worried if they go back to intercity and regional, it'll be the old liverys (imo the intercity or regional liverys don't fit the newer styled trains)

 

[Leyland Bus]

I do agree, everyone who has been on a train will be used to the colour schemes, get rid of them and call them intercity or regional won't be good. I'm worried if they go back to intercity and regional, it'll be the old liverys (imo the intercity or regional liverys don't fit the newer styled trains)

They don't have to be "exactly" the same as before. A fresh take on the liveries is entirely possible to align with modern rolling stock.

Personally, as mentioned before, the clock ought to be rolled back to something like what it was just before privatisation, 3 sectors (England), modern takes on the liveries etc it was working at the time and shouldn't have been messed with... but alas...

 

[Transilien]

it'll be the old liverys (imo the intercity or regional liverys don't fit the newer styled trains)

This is definitely not happening, the government doesn't want to give the railways an old fashioned image. However having one inter-city brand would make more sense than what the hodge-poge of operators that we have now that don't seem to dedicate themselves to one type of service half the time.

 

[geoffk]

I think most people want to just see InterCity come back. I see no great reason to have the WCML branded differently to the ECML. The structure of the operation underneath needn't reflect that.

I agree, one livery for Inter-City and local/regional liveries elsewhere. Defining exactly what the Inter-City brand should include would be a matter for another thread. This could enable fare differentiation on the same route to be determined by service type rather than by operator.

 

[Uncle Buck]

There is certainly a case for differentiating between the various “local” operators, eg GWR, Scotrail etc. but surely one single Intercity brand would work, covering every long-distance, high(er)-speed service?

As an aside, having a separate brand for services on the high-speed lines strikes me as wrong because it would end up creating a two-tier intercity network. If you are taking a Turbostar from Newport to Birmingham you are still taking an Intercity service.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

having a separate brand for services on the high-speed lines strikes me as wrong because it would end up creating a two-tier intercity network. If you are taking a Turbostar from Newport to Birmingham you are still taking an Intercity service.

I feel like there's a very big difference between an 11 coach Class 390 and a 2 coach Class 170.
In my head the "Intercity" of old is more just "big and fast train", not specifically it being Inter-City.

 

[Class 800]

I feel like there's a very big difference between an 11 coach Class 390 and a 2 coach Class 170.
In my head the "Intercity" of old is more just "big and fast train", not specifically it being Inter-City.

Indeed. InterCity should reflect the type of train and level of service offered rather than merely the stopping pattern.

Many London-based InterCity services become regional expresses as they get further away from London, eg GWR services to Penzance. But they are still InterCity as they run high speed non-stop for most of their route. There are also trains with end doors, separated vestibules, more toilets, catering and a more substantial First Class product.

 

[dorsetdesiro]

As there are separate brands for Wales, NI & Scotland it would look bit odd to have GBR just for England.

If I can remember, the pre-privatisation BR was fairly neutral with little mention of "British Rail" as we had Intercity, RR and NSE with only the BR logo visible.

With GBR, we could see similiar with "Intercity" and "Regional" brands alongside TfW, ScotRail and local devolved metro networks such as Merseyrail, Bee Rail, TfL, WMR etc.

As for southern England with links to London, would we see a "new Network South East" or the inner suburban services currently run by SWR etc would go to TfL with the rest such as SWML & PDL services etc go to "Regional" and the SE Javelin & GX Brighton services go to "Intercity"?

 

[Meerkat]

However having one inter-city brand would make more sense than what the hodge-poge of operators that we have now that don't seem to dedicate themselves to one type of service half the time.

Why would it make more sense…..what’s the gain to make up for losing local brands?

 

[Transilien]

As there are separate brands for Wales, NI & Scotland it would look bit odd to have GBR just for England.

Actually considering the cultural and political factors it makes plenty of sense! England has a more 'British' identity than any other part of the UK other than perhaps the unionist parts of NI.

 

[LUYMun]

Why would it make more sense…..what’s the gain to make up for losing local brands?

Why would a centralised country-wide railway operation need to have local brands? BR Intercity (pre and during sectorisation) managed fine without diversifying.

 

[Meerkat]

Why would a centralised country-wide railway operation need to have local brands? BR Intercity (pre and during sectorisation) managed fine without diversifying.

Managed fine doesn’t mean it was the best idea.
Regional brands have marketing advantages.