LNER announce CAF fleet

[coppercapped]

Wasn’t there another fleet that experienced the same issues? Oh yes, the Hitachi 80x fleet.

..and the Class 158 fleet back in the day.

Short memories!

 

[TreacleMiller]

Class 805 was offered.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Class 805 was offered.

Class 805 already exists - could be a new subclass though

 

[800001]

Class 805 was offered.

Hitachi, CAF, and 2 other companies (which I can’t remember) put bids in

 

[yorkie]

Just a reminder to all that this is a traction & rolling thread regarding what's actually happening.

We do welcome any posts of a speculative nature but we do ask that these are posted in the relevant forum section please.

A few existing threads related to this procurement include:

• Possible LNER expansion.
• LNER CAF fleet: predictions, suggestions etc
• Should level boarding be a requirement for all new trains?

If there isn't an existing thread covering any topic anyone would like to discuss, please do create one!

 

[Banham7]

Hitachi, CAF, and 2 other companies (which I can’t remember) put bids in

It was just Hitachi, CAF and CRRC of China.

 

[YorkRailFan]

You mean “on”, I assume?

Yep, sorry, autocorrect.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

How do you come to the conclusion that the Government is paying for the trains?

The press release is quite clear that Porterbrook is funding the construction of the trains and as a ROSCO it will recover its outlay from the lease payments over the life of the rolling stock. The only way that the Government is financially involved in the rolling stock deal will be in the future via any subsidy payments which may be made to the TOC.

Remind me who owns LNER...?

 

[Thirteen]

In terms of numbering, would it be be in the 400s or 800s? Given it'll be tri-mode, maybe it could be the first Class 900 train?

 

[Bletchleyite]

In terms of numbering, would it be be in the 400s or 800s? Given it'll be tri-mode, maybe it could be the first Class 900 train?

TfW are using 7xx for a tri-mode regional unit. If 8xx is for new generation IC units, I'd expect 8xx.

 

[Geeves]

Just to add and apologies if posted already, to confirm the home depot will indeed be Neville Hill with outstation maintenance carried out at Heaton under a subcontract to Northern.

From the internal news at Northern

Good news really as Neville Hill has been working on CAF products for a long time.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Remind me who owns LNER...?

But it's not that simple, as LNER/DfT are paying for the IC225 leases (and their maintenance).
We've no idea what the difference in cost is.
Part of the justification for a new fleet is the difficulty maintaining the existing fleet.

 

[gingertom]

if these trains are intended to be a like-for-like replacement for the 91/mk4 then why are they coming with batteries and gensets where a straight 10-car 397 would have done?

 

[yorkie]

if these trains are intended to be a like-for-like replacement for the 91/mk4 then why are they coming with batteries and gensets where a straight 10-car 397 would have done?

As above LNER operate, or have aspirations to operate, to various places off the wires. Also diversions off the wires can be challenging if a significant proportion of the fleet is electric only.

Any further discussion regarding possible service changes, speculation regarding what routes may or may not operate, is very welcome in the appropriate forum.

 

[HarryL]

if these trains are intended to be a like-for-like replacement for the 91/mk4 then why are they coming with batteries and gensets where a straight 10-car 397 would have done?

It's been suggested they won't replace the 225s directly, but will fill in where needed and allow Azumas to cascade into places they fit better too. So the versatility of being able to do any route regardless of wires would help do that.

 

[aem7ac]

It's been suggested they won't replace the 225s directly, but will fill in where needed and allow Azumas to cascade into places they fit better too. So the versatility of being able to do any route regardless of wires would help do that.

LNER managing director David Horne confirmed on X/Twitter yesterday these are directly replacing the 225s.

In terms of numbering, would it be be in the 400s or 800s? Given it'll be tri-mode, maybe it could be the first Class 900 train?

LNER managing director David Horne stated on X/Twitter yesterday he believes they will either be in the 750-799 or 800-899 series.

 

[Fincra5]

Seems like they'll directly take over from 91s on their diagrams. With some spare we could assume they'd take over some other diagrams in that region. Harrogate, Lincoln & Middlesbrough wouldn't be a bad shout.

 

[Snow1964]

if these trains are intended to be a like-for-like replacement for the 91/mk4 then why are they coming with batteries and gensets where a straight 10-car 397 would have done?

It's not yet clear how powerful the batteries or gen set will be.

It might be that the batteries are only good for few miles, more to get through short isolated sections or into non electrified sidings than to visit a place off the wires 50 miles away, and 50 miles back.

Could also be the gen sets are more specified to be sufficient for pottering along a secondary diversion route at 50mph than having hundreds of horsepower per vehicle.

Apologies if someone has already given the max power on each mode, and/or capacity of batteries.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The way the LNER/CAF pieces are written, the train specification is not yet fixed and design is still in progress.
So I don't think the battery/diesel capability is decided yet.
It will probably depend on how much modification the 397 design can take, in 10-vehicle form.

 

[Jamesrob637]

How reliable are 397s these days? They were riddled with faults during the pandemic (they started service literally weeks before the pandemic)

 

[800001]

LNER managing director David Horne confirmed on X/Twitter yesterday these are directly replacing the 225s.

LNER managing director David Horne stated on X/Twitter yesterday he believes they will either be in the 750-799 or 800-899 series.

Yes David Horne says they are a direct replacement for 91s. However diagrams can now be rewritten so the new fleet may not necessarily work every service a 91 use to.

 

[The_Train]

How reliable are 397s these days? They were riddled with faults during the pandemic (they started service literally weeks before the pandemic)

I think they escape scrutiny because the service levels TPE offer means they don't utilise the full fleet. Easier to hide problems inside a shed than it is when they are failing out on the network

 

[norbitonflyer]

In terms of numbering, would it be be in the 400s or 800s? Given it'll be tri-mode, maybe it could be the first Class 900 train?

Certainly not 4xx, which is for dc-only stock

 

[dorsetdesiro]

In terms of numbering, would it be be in the 400s or 800s? Given it'll be tri-mode, maybe it could be the first Class 900 train?

897 or 997?

 

[Dan G]

Will be interesting to see what combination of generator set and battery CAF manage to squeeze underneath 23m cars alongside the 25 kV AC equipment. Obvs won't need GUs and batteries under each car.

 

[Chester1]

Will be interesting to see what combination of generator set and battery CAF manage to squeeze underneath 23m cars alongside the 25 kV AC equipment. Obvs won't need GUs and batteries under each car.

The range of batteries and power under diesel will be interesting too. I might be wrong I think the 800s and 802s have 3 generator sets per 5 car unit while the 810s have 4 because of the high proportion of MML without wires. I would guess that the need to find space for batteries will mean a power under diesel similar to an 800. The intended period of use of the batteries will be interesting. They could be planning to replace the batteries every 5 to 7 years to keep extending the range as technology grows. Old batteries could easily find a new home so it would be environmentally friendly.

 

[Energy]

I might be wrong I think the 800s and 802s have 3 generator sets per 5 car unit while the 810s have 4 because of the high proportion of MML without wires.

Yes, the 810s have 4 instead of 3 to match the 222s timings on diesel. The 800s would have originally been 3x750hp engines per 5 car (LNER 800s still are this) but the GWR units got uprated to 986hp with GWR/DfT agreeing to take the reliability hit.

The intended period of use of the batteries will be interesting. They could be planning to replace the batteries every 5 to 7 years to keep extending the range as technology grows. Old batteries could easily find a new home so it would be environmentally friendly.

LNER and CAF don't sound fixed in the sizing, wonder if its possible that they'll end up battery only if CAF can get a big enough unit underneath? They've managed 220+km ranges on Civities in other countries

 

[Chester1]

Yes, the 810s have 4 instead of 3 to match the 222s timings on diesel. The 800s would have originally been 3x750hp engines per 5 car (LNER 800s still are this) but the GWR units got uprated to 986hp with GWR/DfT agreeing to take the reliability hit.

LNER and CAF don't sound fixed in the sizing, wonder if its possible that they'll end up battery only if CAF can get a big enough unit underneath? They've managed 220+km ranges on Civities in other countries

I would be very surprised if they don’t find space for at least one battery. The choice of tri mode over bi mode will be a gesture towards decarbonisation. The fleet will likely be in service beyond 2050 and if they have at least one battery it will be straightforward to make them a BEMUs.

 

[800001]

The range of batteries and power under diesel will be interesting too. I might be wrong I think the 800s and 802s have 3 generator sets per 5 car unit while the 810s have 4 because of the high proportion of MML without wires. I would guess that the need to find space for batteries will mean a power under diesel similar to an 800. The intended period of use of the batteries will be interesting. They could be planning to replace the batteries every 5 to 7 years to keep extending the range as technology grows. Old batteries could easily find a new home so it would be environmentally friendly.

The use of batteries was intended for arrival, during and departure of stations which are away from the over head lines. So I’ve been told. Would also assist with shunting etc at for example Harrogate.

 

[class26]

Well, it’s cost them in the long run- I won’t be venturing to Inverness or Aberdeen on LNER for the foreseeable, which I used to love doing on the HST’s. I only travel on the Azuma’s when essential and I don’t even find first class down to London a particularly enjoyable experience anymore. I appreciate I am but one person, but I’ve heard/seen plenty of others saying it so it must be having some impact in terms of ticket revenue.

you may be one but i definitely am another. I stay with my Jag now, my back can`t take the seats in the 800`s