LNER announce CAF fleet

[ac6000cw]

What am I missing, the Civity is for commuter services and regional services, it is not their high speed offering Oaris.

So is this basically a fast outer suburban rather than an intercity train

It's a regional train family for up to 200 km/h operation - the 350 km/h capable Oaris family is aimed at real high-speed lines. Why spend extra money on performance you don't need?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I suppose as York and Lincoln are intertwining services, we may these going to Lincoln instead of the short 800/2s, which hopefully with these new trains running to Harrogate/Bradford will only run coupled up (same for the 801/1) from then on.

 

[TreacleMiller]

Numbers above 750 are for bi-modes.
8xx numbers are for high speed trains, so far only from Hitachi but nothing to say that has to stay the case.

In recent times there’s been a link between the last digits of class numbers. For example, classes 555, 745 and 755 are all from Stadler, 707 and 717 from Siemens, 710/720/730 from Bombardier/Alstom although that pattern is spoiled by 700s coming from Siemens.


They have to be gone by the time ERTMS is switched on south of Peterborough, regardless what the situation is with replacement stock.


If it got desperate they could no doubt contact Europhoenix and attempt to recover parts from 91120 which is complete despite likely having no future beyond continued static display at Crewe Heritage Centre alongside a 43 and a 90 that have both already been stripped of mechanical and electrical components to keep classmates running. They could also stop the two closest to requiring overhaul (119 and 124?) as parts donors. There’s still quite a bit that could be done before they completely run out of parts.

One does however have to question the wisdom on Eversholt’s part of sending the 91s from Belmont Yard for scrap without recovering parts off any of them first.

Rake spares, not loco spares.

 

[waterboo]

I'm rather amused that they decided to do an artist impression of the train in what looks to be ---- Reading station?

 

[Gaelan]

What am I missing, the Civity is for commuter services and regional services, it is not their high speed offering Oaris.

So is this basically a fast outer suburban rather than an intercity train

TPE runs Civities ("Nova 2", class 397) on Manchester-Edinburgh, among other routes. I've found them to be entirely adequate, indeed quite nice. They are of course 125mph capable.

 

[Winthorpe]

I'm rather amused that they decided to do an artist impression of the train in what looks to be ---- Reading station?

I made a similar point about the artist impression of the the Reading Green Park station, which seemed to show an Avanti 390 calling at the station:

Reading Green Park Station

Can anyone explain the thinking behind 2 platforms each 150m long Not long enough for an 8car EMU (if line is ever electrified), but far longer than a Voyager (if cross country were ever to call) and rather longer than a pair of 165 or 166 DMUs. Almost feels like a round number regardless of...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[LYuen]

TPE runs Civities ("Nova 2", class 397) on Manchester-Edinburgh, among other routes. I've found them to be entirely adequate, indeed quite nice. They are of course 125mph capable.

They are running a top speed of 110mph on WCML - only Pendolino and Super Voyager are permitted to run 125mph on that line
Only on ECML can non-tilting trains do 125mph, but Nova 2 can't cross the non-electric TransPennine track

 

[Gaelan]

They are running a top speed of 110mph on WCML - only Pendolino and Super Voyager are permitted to run 125mph on that line
Only on ECML can non-tilting trains do 125mph, but Nova 2 can't cross the non-electric TransPennine track

According to Eversholt's website, the 397s are in fact 125mph capable, though as you note limited by line speed. But line speed isn't relevant here, as I was talking about the Nova 2s to make a point about the suitability of the Civity platform for the LNER trains, which will of course be on the ECML.

 

[jayah]

Yes, they build the 197s there and I believe that they built the 195s and 331s.

They are assembled there, the building, components and value added all happens abroad.

They are assembles here to tick a political box.

Unfortunately it seems impossible to break out of this syndrome that involves creating yet another new stock type for just 10 trains, nor to get a TOC larger than Hull Trains using just one type of train.

 

[TreacleMiller]

Here's a further image that I haven't seen shown anywhere else yet.

Would it not have been sensible to find this out before the government ordered a large fleet of half-length units?

P***-ups and breweries spring to mind!

Probably.

Issue is that at 26m x 5 they don't fit with enough clearance to negate a spad risk whilst coupling/detaching.

There's also the curvature issue at Leeds and there are local instructions about how to couple, direction etc. A few platforms. are prohibited when it comes to coupling operations too.

 

[Kite159]

I suppose as York and Lincoln are intertwining services, we may these going to Lincoln instead of the short 800/2s, which hopefully with these new trains running to Harrogate/Bradford will only run coupled up (same for the 801/1) from then on.

Considering they are meant to be 10 coaches long there won't be any issues with 5 coach operation from London.

Although wouldn't a 10 coach unit be a tad overkill for Lincoln trains (yet alone long enough to foul the level crossing when it calls)

 

[urpert]

It's a regional train family for up to 200 km/h operation - the 350 km/h capable Oaris family is aimed at real high-speed lines. Why spend extra money on performance you don't need?

SNCF have just ordered something similar from CAF for Paris-Toulouse and Paris-Clermont:

SNCF’s new Oxygène train sets begin test phase

SNCF will welcome new rolling stock by 2026. These new trains will replace the forty-year-old Corail train sets on the Paris – Clermont-Ferrand line and the Paris – Orléans – Limoges – Toulouse. Like many of its predecessors, the Oxygène train ordered by SNCF will be tested over the next few...

www.railtech.com

No idea if it’s the same platform underneath with a different name or if the Civity platform is UK-specific.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Considering they are meant to be 10 coaches long there won't be any issues with 5 coach operation from London.

Although wouldn't a 10 coach unit be a tad overkill for Lincoln trains (yet alone long enough to foul the level crossing when it calls)

Yes I’m saying hopefully these new ten carriage trains running most of the current 801/1 or 800/2 services would eradicate five car working as those Azumas would then run always in pairs on other routes.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Might just be an effect of the lighting in that render (post #229), but these units appear to have a weird bulge on the lower cabsides... they look like they've got mumps!

 

[Snow1964]

10 sets ordered, but I wonder if there is still an option for upto 5 extra as per the Invitation to tender

Description​

LNER has commenced a procurement process with potential manufacturers for the design, manufacture, testing and supply (and associated maintenance activities) of a fleet of ten (10) InterCity trains (the “Base Order Units”), owner owned spares, special tools, simulator hardware and technical information, mock-ups (together the “Leased Equipment”) and depot works, with an option to procure up to an additional five (5) trains (“Option Units”) for use on the East Coast Franchise.
The trains will provide LNER with additional capacity to accommodate future growth and have performance characteristics that enable the fleet to be timetabled effectively amongst modern InterCity trains. The trains shall be fully rated for operation on 25 kV overhead line equipment and have significant self-power capability for operation on non-electrified sections of the network and over non-electrified diversionary routes, increasing the flexibility of LNER’s fleet and the ability to provide uninterrupted services during engineering works.

Financing of Rolling Stock [Tender Notice]

LNER has commenced a procurement process with potential manufacturers for the design, manufacture, t... A Tender Notice by London North Eastern Railway. Value £500M.

bidstats.uk

 

[AM9]

It's a regional train family for up to 200 km/h operation - the 350 km/h capable Oaris family is aimed at real high-speed lines. Why spend extra money on performance you don't need?

Precisely! I wondered how long it would be before somebody popped up claiming that they aren't IC stock, although "Commuter train" is a bit misleading for a 125mph train with end doors. Having travelled on a 397, I am inclined to think that for the shorter IC services, a new express train standard will evolve along the lines of this new fleet.
There's a historic irony that these train would be the 21st century equivalent of the class 309s that York services were denied when the ECML electrification was delayed by 25 years.

 

[northernbelle]

CAF was likely cheaper.

Indeed - so no surprise given everything is rooted in cost at the moment.

The idea that CAF has been selected as being 'better' than Hitachi is nonsense - have a chat with TPE about that one.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Indeed - so no surprise given everything is rooted in cost at the moment.

The idea that CAF has been selected as being 'better' than Hitachi is nonsense - have a chat with TPE about that one.

Add Caledonian Sleeper to this list.

 

[dgl]

Regarding the 80x trains and the cracking issues, supposedly it's only because GWR had acquired the 802's that the issue was made public, supposedly Hitachi/Agility wanted to hide behind the contract and blame everyone else. So it'snot unsurprising that LNER has had enough with Hitachi and gone with someone else.
I do assume that Siemens were too expensive! (or didn't have a design ready to go).

 

[AM9]

Regarding the 80x trains and the cracking issues, supposedly it's only because GWR had acquired the 802's that the issue was made public, supposedly Hitachi/Agility wanted to hide behind the contract and blame everyone else. So it'snot unsurprising that LNER has had enough with Hitachi and gone with someone else.
I do assume that Siemens were too expensive! (or didn't have a design ready to go).

I think Siemens would have offered something from their 'Verve' catalogue which would replace the Desiro UK range currently operating.*

* the Desiro City isn't part of the 'Desiro UK range

 

[D365]

Unfortunately it seems impossible to break out of this syndrome that involves creating yet another new stock type for just 10 trains, nor to get a TOC larger than Hull Trains using just one type of train.

The Hitachi offering would not have been a Class 800 or Class 801.

 

[DanNCL]

No idea if it’s the same platform underneath with a different name or if the Civity platform is UK-specific.

Not sure about the SNCF order but the Civity platform isn't UK specific - the SNG units operated by NS are also part of the Civity platform.

Regarding the 80x trains and the cracking issues, supposedly it's only because GWR had acquired the 802's that the issue was made public, supposedly Hitachi/Agility wanted to hide behind the contract and blame everyone else. So it'snot unsurprising that LNER has had enough with Hitachi and gone with someone else.

That'll be TPE as much as it was GWR. But yes, almost certainly only became the level of (publicly known) scandal that it was because of the 802s.
There's been hints of a strained relationship between LNER and Hitachi for a while even from the public perspective. For example the increasingly frequent appearance of the 225s in LNER publicity these days, often whilst 80xs are missing.
That said, it wouldn't have been easy to hide it for long. If it hadn't been made public no doubt it would have leaked. And it would have been much more of a scandal than it was when they simply made it public themselves.

I do assume that Siemens were too expensive! (or didn't have a design ready to go).

I think Siemens would have offered something from their 'Verve' catalogue which would replace the Desiro UK range currently operating.*

It's interesting to think about what the possible alternatives from other manufacturers would have been. Not just from Siemens but from Stadler too. One for another thread?

The Hitachi offering would not have been a Class 800 or Class 801.

It would still have been an 80x family unit and had a lot more in common with the 800/801 units than anything from any other manufacturer would have.

 

[yorkie]

.... One for another thread?...

Absolutely.

Just a reminder to all that this is a thread regarding what's actually happening; we do welcome any speculation in the relevant section.

A few existing threads related to this procurement include:

• Possible LNER expansion.
• LNER CAF fleet: predictions, suggestions etc
• Should level boarding be a requirement for all new trains?

If there isn't an existing thread covering any topic anyone would like to discuss, please do create one!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The Hitachi offering would not have been a Class 800 or Class 801.

An order for 10 trains isn't enough to get manufacturers offering anything not already part of existing platforms and fitting UK profile.
Any Hitachi offering would have been AT300-based (unless AT200, ie class 385-derived, fitted the bill).

 

[YorksLad12]

It isn't surprising if you consider who's ordering them. TOCs like First - and I'd probably say First more than any other TOC when it comes to this, although Abellio and Arriva are just as bad - care about cramming as many seats into a train as possible, and that's how the obscure seat-window relationship is born. Aligning them with the seats would reduce capacity/density

I think the window-seat relationship was broken in the 1970s. A standard layout was used for First and Second Class on the HST; windows lined up in First but didn't in Second (which had more seats and fewer tables). Before that the classes had been designed so that seats match in both. Not sure where I read that though...

Wild guess: 790 or 795-797?
7 same as other tri-modes, 9 for intercity trains, 95-97 are the same as other CAF Civity trains

820. You heard it here first! 8xx - long-distance, 820 because it isn't an 80x- or 81x-series train.

I'm not sure he did, he said they replace Class 91 which are mostly used in that area. He didn't say that's where the new trains would be used. Why would you need tri-mode for London to Leeds?

Why would you need bi-mode for London to Leeds?

I really like the way they've applied the livery to the 397's shape.

I really hope they re-apply the current 225 livery to them!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think the window-seat relationship was broken in the 1970s. A standard layout was used for First and Second Class on the HST; windows lined up in First but didn't in Second (which had more seats and fewer tables). Before that the classes had been designed so that seats match in both. Not sure where I read that though...

Pre Mk3 a second class 20m coach had 8 bodyside windows and a first class one 7, with seats fully aligned. With the HST it was decided to abandon this due to cost and instead have only the First Class window layout and Standard misaligned. That has generally carried on in new non commuter stock. Commuter stock has varied, with the Mk3 units having First Class window spacing but the Networkers having Standard spacing or both. 158s as built had Standard only and were fully aligned.

Unusually for a post Mk3 long distance train, the 397 has Standard spacing, meaning Standard is fully aligned and First isn't. This was an interesting deaign choice by TPE, presumably based around the idea that business travellers will have their head in a laptop and won't care about looking out of the window. It will be interesting to see what layout LNER use.

 

[YorksLad12]

Pre Mk3 a second class 20m coach had 8 bodyside windows and a first class one 7, with seats fully aligned. With the HST it was decided to abandon this due to cost and instead have only the First Class window layout and Standard misaligned. That has generally carried on in new non commuter stock. Commuter stock has varied, with the Mk3 units having First Class window spacing but the Networkers having Standard spacing or both. 158s as built had Standard only and were fully aligned.

Unusually for a post Mk3 long distance train, the 397 has Standard spacing, meaning Standard is fully aligned and First isn't. This was an interesting deaign choice by TPE, presumably based around the idea that business travellers will have their head in a laptop and won't care about looking out of the window. It will be interesting to see what layout LNER use.

Thanks, and indeed. I have a list of seats for when I book First on an LNER 80x; some have more window than others, because they're unidirectional, and so don't all line up with the bays like the tables of 4.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Recently, I have been thinking about this concept as well. New trailer coaches could be built with a lowered centre section between the bogies, and one could be added to each Azuma train, replacing an existing coach or as an additional coach. Wheelchair spaces and an accessible toilet would be located in this trailer coach, with level boarding to the standard platform height.

Built by Hitachi ? Would have to be so that the TMS worked

 

[coppercapped]

Which is not a bad thing at all. Government (especially ours) is incapable of doing large infrastructure projects without bilions going to waste. I'm glad it's being spent on proper things like refurbishments and new rolling stock.

How do you come to the conclusion that the Government is paying for the trains?

The press release is quite clear that Porterbrook is funding the construction of the trains and as a ROSCO it will recover its outlay from the lease payments over the life of the rolling stock. The only way that the Government is financially involved in the rolling stock deal will be in the future via any subsidy payments which may be made to the TOC.

Financial analyses published in the railway trade press at the time of the IEP contract made it clear that the train service payments on a per coach per month basis were exceptionally high compared to the total of lease and maintenance payments made for similar trains such as the Pendolino.

It could well be that LNER's finances will be somewhat rosier in the future having chosen a conventional leasing deal rather than the financial structure imposed by the DfT for the trains procured under the IEP contracts.

 

[norbitonflyer]

820. You heard it here first!

See post 119!