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LNER to pilot removal of Off-Peak tickets

BRX

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Interestingly most US domestic airlines offer "bereavement fares" which ease this specific situation which is about the only key one and is relevant to a very small number of people at any one time.
I'm talking about a scenario where there might be an extended period of travelling back and forth to see & help look after someone who is seriously and/or terminally ill. During the whole of that time things may be unpredictable and at any point one might not really know whether there are days, weeks or months to go.

Not a one-off emergency trip with very short notice, which I am guessing is what these "bereavement fares" apply to.
 
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Jonny

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I had a look at the "fully flexible" ticket (I live near the trial area) and it seems that it loses a lot of the route flexibility by becoming LNER-only and requiring journeys to be via Peterborough.
 

Bletchleyite

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I had a look at the "fully flexible" ticket (I live near the trial area) and it seems that it loses a lot of the route flexibility by becoming LNER-only and requiring journeys to be via Peterborough.

The Edinburgh-Kings X Anytime Single is "route York" (and has been since the single fare pricing started) and is not LNER Only. Berwick is Any Permitted. Newcastle appears to be route Peterborough but not LNER Only so still valid on Lumo (though you'd be mad not to refund it and buy a Lumo ticket).

Manors isn't route Peterborough so I don't quite know why they've done this to only this one (barring journeys via the Midland).
 

Watershed

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The Edinburgh-Kings X Anytime Single is "route York" (and has been since the single fare pricing started) and is not LNER Only. Berwick is Any Permitted. Newcastle appears to be route Peterborough but not LNER Only so still valid on Lumo (though you'd be mad not to refund it and buy a Lumo ticket).

Manors isn't route Peterborough so I don't quite know why they've done this to only this one (barring journeys via the Midland).
It was part of the hare-brained single leg pricing initiative; all of the affected flows gained route restrictions to prevent their fares from being used on "unintended" routes. Of course, that had the effect of denying passengers the use of reasonable and longstanding permitted routes, including (most egregiously) Edinburgh to London via the WCML.
 

BRX

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It was part of the hare-brained single leg pricing initiative; all of the affected flows gained route restrictions to prevent their fares from being used on "unintended" routes. Of course, that had the effect of denying passengers the use of reasonable and longstanding permitted routes, including (most egregiously) Edinburgh to London via the WCML.
Is this basically so that they can collect 100% of the revenue from a ticket from Edinburgh to London whereas if it's any permitted, some proportion would go to other operators in the basis that a certain proportion of ticket holders would use those other routes?
 

Watershed

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Is this basically so that they can collect 100% of the revenue from a ticket from Edinburgh to London whereas if it's any permitted, some proportion would go to other operators in the basis that a certain proportion of ticket holders would use those other routes?
Since it's a geographic rather than an operator restriction, the revenue is still split through ORCATS between all of the operators that feature in non-overtaken journeys on the East Coast Mainline (i.e. possibly including XC, TPE, Grand Central etc. depending on the time of day or day of the week). That being said, walk-up tickets make up a small proportion of overall revenue for these kinds of long-distance flows so most revenue will go directly to the relevant operator.

I think there was also a suggestion that Avanti or EMR were concerned that the single leg pricing would undermine their own pricing.
 

Bletchleyite

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Since it's a geographic rather than an operator restriction, the revenue is still split through ORCATS between all of the operators that feature in non-overtaken journeys on the East Coast Mainline (i.e. possibly including XC, TPE, Grand Central etc. depending on the time of day or day of the week). That being said, walk-up tickets make up a small proportion of overall revenue for these kinds of long-distance flows so most revenue will go directly to the relevant operator.

I think there was also a suggestion that Avanti or EMR were concerned that the single leg pricing would undermine their own pricing.

I believe it was indeed the latter, because it made the cheapest single ticket from Glasgow to Euston a single from Edinburgh to Euston.

Why Newcastle is route Peterborough rather than York I don't know, though.
 

Joe Paxton

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I believe it was indeed the latter, because it made the cheapest single ticket from Glasgow to Euston a single from Edinburgh to Euston.

Why Newcastle is route Peterborough rather than York I don't know, though.

Keeps more of the revenue allocated to the ECML, rather than it 'leaking' over to the MML? Though it'll always be a slower journey away from the ECML.
 

norbitonflyer

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And indeed ones where you aren't able to commit to travelling at all beforehand or don't even know that you'll have to.
Other situations where you may have to travel at short notice include disruption to previous travel plans - broken down car, or let down by another operator.

But I specifically covered the going hoem aspect because that is not optional
 

modernrail

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Other situations where you may have to travel at short notice include disruption to previous travel plans - broken down car, or let down by another operator.

But I specifically covered the going hoem aspect because that is not optional
There are loads of situations. I don’t understand why this point is even a debate. The concept that everybody knows what they are doing to the minute weeks in advance and there is no potential variation is just utterly ludicrous.

The biggest potential throwing of plans on in terms of catching a train is another train operator having shafted you on an inward journey. My Thameslink from Tulse Hill to Kings Cross is a very regular candidate for that one. That happens A LOT and is reason enough to want to buy off peaks.
 

sheff1

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Well, they can be... if there is availability.
Of course, but as we have seen quite often there are no Advances left well before departure with the only ticket offered being the Anytime - whilst the withdrawal of the Super Off Peak was sugared by 'don't worry, Advances can be bought up to 5 mins before departure'.
 

Joe Paxton

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Of course, but as we have seen quite often there are no Advances left well before departure with the only ticket offered being the Anytime - whilst the withdrawal of the Super Off Peak was sugared by 'don't worry, Advances can be bought up to 5 mins before departure'.

From my recent idle searches (for 'last minute' travel - meaning either 'today' or 'tomorrow'), whilst yes often it is indeed only the Anytime offered, a not insignificant number of times the trains are simply shown as "Not available", meaning 'sold out' / fully reserved.

Tomorrow from King's Cross to Edinburgh, there's a mix - several trains in the middle of the day only showing Anytimes, but then several afternoon trains showing "Not available".

But yes, under the current scheme (i.e. putting the workarounds to one side), if you want to make this journey for less than a ton then you'll want to book one of the Advances on the earlier morning departures at 05:48 (Lumo), 06:15, 07:00, 08:00 or 08:30, or else wait until the 20:27 Lumo train (£81 for their Anytime Day Single*)

(* also valid on any of Lumo's four other departures during the day, but three of these trains appear to be fully reserved - do Lumo ever actually turn reservation-less pax away when a particular train is very busy?)
 

Krokodil

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It was part of the hare-brained single leg pricing initiative; all of the affected flows gained route restrictions to prevent their fares from being used on "unintended" routes.
Remember, this scheme is all about simplifying fares. How introducing extra restrictions ties in with that claim I'll never know.
 

KGX

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Southbound prices in May are looking a lot higher from York & the NE. Ugh.
 

AdamWW

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Southbound prices in May are looking a lot higher from York & the NE. Ugh.

Is the "trial" being extended to York in May? Otherwise won't they have to still offer super of peaks?

Or is this just when they aren't valid?
 

Starmill

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I think we get to absorbed in whether a policy is announced or implemented in the right way when the main problem is that it's a bad policy to begin with.

This is just a bad policy however it is announced or implemented. As the saying goes, you can't polish a turd.
It's just an extension of the general policy of making rail travel expensive though when it comes down to it. I strongly disagree with that policy but it applies very widely, beyond LNER.
 

CyrusWuff

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Is the "trial" being extended to York in May? Otherwise won't they have to still offer super of peaks?

Or is this just when they aren't valid?
Or timetables have yet to be confirmed, so all that's showing (other than on the LNER app/website) are walk up fares with no Advances.
 

yorksrob

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It's just an extension of the general policy of making rail travel expensive though when it comes down to it. I strongly disagree with that policy but it applies very widely, beyond LNER.

Very true !

The article on p74 of March's edition by Paul Cooper is even worse still.

My goodness, I've just read it.

It's breathtaking (in all the wrong ways).
 
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AdamWW

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Looking at fares to travel from London to Edinburgh tomorrow, I see LNER will sell you a "fixed" (£81) or "advance single" (£86) on the 16:40 Avanti service.


1708705862203.png

As they also show Lumo advances as "fixed" perhaps they've modified their booking engine to describe advances as fixed tickets.
But what is the £86 advance single on Avanti?

Avanti themselves only seem to show the £81 ticket.

Meanwhile I can only see Anytime fares on the Avanti web site for LNER and Lumo, even though LNER show advances (sorry, "fixed" tickets) available for both.

I'm confused!
 

Watershed

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Looking at fares to travel from London to Edinburgh tomorrow, I see LNER will sell you a "fixed" (£81) or "advance single" (£86) on the 16:40 Avanti service.


View attachment 153010

As they also show Lumo advances as "fixed" perhaps they've modified their booking engine to describe advances as fixed tickets.
But what is the £86 advance single on Avanti?

Avanti themselves only seem to show the £81 ticket.

Meanwhile I can only see Anytime fares on the Avanti web site for LNER and Lumo, even though LNER show advances (sorry, "fixed" tickets) available for both.

I'm confused!
Looks like the £86 fare is just a higher tier of Advance for the same train. Can't see any scenario in which it would make sense to buy this. LNER's supplier should be putting these tiers of Advances into a group or bucket so that only the cheapest one that's available is offered.
 

Jonny

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The Edinburgh-Kings X Anytime Single is "route York" (and has been since the single fare pricing started) and is not LNER Only. Berwick is Any Permitted. Newcastle appears to be route Peterborough but not LNER Only so still valid on Lumo (though you'd be mad not to refund it and buy a Lumo ticket).

Manors isn't route Peterborough so I don't quite know why they've done this to only this one (barring journeys via the Midland).

I believe it was indeed the latter, because it made the cheapest single ticket from Glasgow to Euston a single from Edinburgh to Euston.

Why Newcastle is route Peterborough rather than York I don't know, though.

Remember, this scheme is all about simplifying fares. How introducing extra restrictions ties in with that claim I'll never know.

Based on what I have read on other threads, I suspect that there is an attempt to route passengers away from the Midland Main Line/EMR side of St Pancras as much as any desire to conserve revenue, although both are possible factors. The thing that is most jarring is the lack of transparency; someone has basically slipped it in and tried to "hide it in plain sight". Suddenly, previously valid routes are 'up the spout' and anyone who buys extra tickets at short notice is on a stickier wicket (compared to the old system) if they buy extra tickets and then try to claim back at least some of the resultant cost,
 

AdamWW

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Based on what I have read on other threads, I suspect that there is an attempt to route passengers away from the Midland Main Line/EMR side of St Pancras as much as any desire to conserve revenue, although both are possible factors. The thing that is most jarring is the lack of transparency; someone has basically slipped it in and tried to "hide it in plain sight". Suddenly, previously valid routes are 'up the spout' and anyone who buys extra tickets at short notice is on a stickier wicket (compared to the old system) if they buy extra tickets and then try to claim back at least some of the resultant cost,

But isn't all the money now going to the same place anyway?
 

absolutelymilk

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Anyone know what the effect has been on passenger numbers on busy off-peak trains? Has it successfully priced off passengers onto quieter trains?
 

Haywain

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But isn't all the money now going to the same place anyway?
Maybe, but it's very naive to think that it all goes by the same route. The DfT may tell TOCs to make more money but it tellls them individually rather than collectively.
 

Kite159

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In Roger French's latest blog (
https://busandtrainuser.com/2024/02/29/seen-around-19/#more-56128) he has a photo from 'Rail Future' with a breakdown of the costs from Edinburgh to London on the 25th Feb taken on the 22nd Feb where previously the super off-peak single would cap the price to £87 with tickets all above £100 other than the last train of the day. (Which is about the summary of the attachment)

Just shows it was all about making more money
 

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yorksrob

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Utterly despicable. There is no justification for this charade "pilot" to continue.
 

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