London Buses Discussion

[Deerfold]

And many other journeys have taken a lot longer than 30 minutes but of course we don't want to hear about those do we?

I'm happy to see more evidence and see what it shows. If you have more evidence, that's great. If not, we've got this evidence for now. Were all journey times increased or was there no difference between the 119 and SL5? Was the SL5 slower?

I used to produce stats for London buses - the preference was always for as much data as possible to avoid just looking at one time of day to see what was happening.

I can't see Superloop as anything more than a quickfix bodge job from a mayor who is desperate to deflect attention away from the ULEZ expansion with an election coming up. I'd much rather see something more long term like Tramlink extensions to Bromley and Sutton and a lot more investment in orbital rail links as is happening in other capital cities around the world. Express bus services are generally just rail replacement services, the Croydon to New Addington express bus services were withdrawn once Tramlink opened because there was no need for them anymore.

More express buses (and rebranding existing ones) wouldn't have the first thing I'd done, but if they're successful and increase ridership I'd be happy to keep (and increase) them.

My suspicion is that some of the routes will work well, whilst others won't. I'd prioritise more route priority measures on both these and other routes.

We'll see what happens after the mayoral election but I don't see the 119 and SL5 surviving in their current form in the long term.

We'll see how successful they are - what's wrong with the 119?

 

[johncrossley]

If the choice is just between express buses and no express buses, obviously the choice would be express buses. But the more relevant question, as always, is, what is the best way of allocating resources? If you have express buses then you don't have something else. During the Livingstone boom years, TfL was often questioned about their lack of interest in express buses and their response was that you get better value for each pound on stopping bus services.

 

[Deerfold]

If the choice is just between express buses and no express buses, obviously the choice would be express buses. But the more relevant question, as always, is, what is the best way of allocating resources? If you have express buses then you don't have something else. During the Livingstone boom years, TfL was often questioned about their lack of interest in express buses and their response was that you get better value for each pound on stopping bus services.

When I worked for TfL they did some research on the 207/607 corridor and worked out that for the average passenger journey there was no benefit on waiting for a 607 over catching whichever bus came first.

 

[Goldfish62]

And many other journeys have taken a lot longer than 30 minutes but of course we don't want to hear about those do we?

Why would we not want to hear about them? It's hardly surprising that some journeys have taken longer than 30 minutes given that they are scheduled to take longer than 30 minutes.

The journey times shown on the new-style TfL timetable panels are unfortunately mostly complete nonsense. They seem to default to late evening journey times rather than the running time for the first bus after 10:00 Mon-Fri. I reported the issue last year and was told that they were aware of the problem.

I can't see Superloop as anything more than a quickfix bodge job from a mayor who is desperate to deflect attention away from the ULEZ expansion with an election coming up. I'd much rather see something more long term like Tramlink extensions to Bromley and Sutton and a lot more investment in orbital rail links as is happening in other capital cities around the world. Express bus services are generally just rail replacement services, the Croydon to New Addington express bus services were withdrawn once Tramlink opened because there was no need for them anymore.

We'll see what happens after the mayoral election but I don't see the 119 and SL5 surviving in their current form in the long term.

You're quite right that it was a political decision. It was unbudgeted and unplanned for by TfL so they've done a good job bringing it all in so quickly. What it does mean is less money for service improvements on the existing network. The amount of money thrown at Superloop, though, is a drop in the ocean compared with tram extensions so I wouldn't worry about the impact on the feasibility of tram extensions.

If the Tory candidate wins the mayoral election all bets are off regarding the future of the bus network. She told Nick Ferrari during an LBC interview last month that she has never been on a bus and doesn't know what the single fare is. That's in stark contrast to Livingston, Johnson and Khan.

 

[Edsmith]

I'm happy to see more evidence and see what it shows. If you have more evidence, that's great. If not, we've got this evidence for now. Were all journey times increased or was there no difference between the 119 and SL5? Was the SL5 slower?

I used to produce stats for London buses - the preference was always for as much data as possible to avoid just looking at one time of day to see what was happening.


More express buses (and rebranding existing ones) wouldn't have the first thing I'd done, but if they're successful and increase ridership I'd be happy to keep (and increase) them.

My suspicion is that some of the routes will work well, whilst others won't. I'd prioritise more route priority measures on both these and other routes.


We'll see how successful they are - what's wrong with the 119?

Nothing particularly wrong with the 119 but it's likely to see a drop in usage as a result of the SL5.

Why would we not want to hear about them? It's hardly surprising that some journeys have taken longer than 30 minutes given that they are scheduled to take longer than 30 minutes.

The journey times shown on the new-style TfL timetable panels are unfortunately mostly complete nonsense. They seem to default to late evening journey times rather than the running time for the first bus after 10:00 Mon-Fri. I reported the issue last year and was told that they were aware of the problem.


You're quite right that it was a political decision. It was unbudgeted and unplanned for by TfL so they've done a good job bringing it all in so quickly. What it does mean is less money for service improvements on the existing network. The amount of money thrown at Superloop, though, is a drop in the ocean compared with tram extensions so I wouldn't worry about the impact on the feasibility of tram extensions.

If the Tory candidate wins the mayoral election all bets are off regarding the future of the bus network. She told Nick Ferrari during an LBC interview last month that she has never been on a bus and doesn't know what the single fare is. That's in stark contrast to Livingston, Johnson and Khan.

I suspect a lot of politicians have never been on a bus other than for photo opportunities.

Obviously tram extensions are more expensive but you get what you pay for.

 

[Busaholic]

And many other journeys have taken a lot longer than 30 minutes but of course we don't want to hear about those do we?

I can't see Superloop as anything more than a quickfix bodge job from a mayor who is desperate to deflect attention away from the ULEZ expansion with an election coming up. I'd much rather see something more long term like Tramlink extensions to Bromley and Sutton and a lot more investment in orbital rail links as is happening in other capital cities around the world. Express bus services are generally just rail replacement services, the Croydon to New Addington express bus services were withdrawn once Tramlink opened because there was no need for them anymore.

We'll see what happens after the mayoral election but I don't see the 119 and SL5 surviving in their current form in the long term.

I think we now see your agenda, which only confirms for me the impression I've had for some time that you've been very active on another forum I used to follow, and possibly on this one too in a different life.

Tramlink will never get to Bromley, and why should it? The topography would make it unfeasible anyway. There wouldn't be an 'extension' to Sutton either, what was being spoken of and seemingly quietly forgotten was an entirely new route from Sutton to Morden/Mitcham/wherever, but never Croydon itself. It was only a little more meaningful than B.Johnson's promises to Crystal Palace residents prior to two previous mayoral elections which would only have worsened the Elmers End and Beckenham services.

Other cities round the world do all sorts of things public transport-wise that haven't been done here for many a year, but then they don't share the ridiculous prejudices of so many in charge of the public pursestrings here, usually under Conservative administrations.

Personally, I think the SL routes should have been marketed as Limited Stop routes, which is what they are with the sole exception of the ex X68 route.

We'll see how successful they are - what's wrong with the 119?

It's been plying those same roads between Bromley and Croydon since shortly before the Second World War, so I can't see it disappearing anytime soon.

 

[Edsmith]

I think we now see your agenda, which only confirms for me the impression I've had for some time that you've been very active on another forum I used to follow, and possibly on this one too in a different life.

Tramlink will never get to Bromley, and why should it? The topography would make it unfeasible anyway. There wouldn't be an 'extension' to Sutton either, what was being spoken of and seemingly quietly forgotten was an entirely new route from Sutton to Morden/Mitcham/wherever, but never Croydon itself. It was only a little more meaningful than B.Johnson's promises to Crystal Palace residents prior to two previous mayoral elections which would only have worsened the Elmers End and Beckenham services.

Other cities round the world do all sorts of things public transport-wise that haven't been done here for many a year, but then they don't share the ridiculous prejudices of so many in charge of the public pursestrings here, usually under Conservative administrations.

Personally, I think the SL routes should have been marketed as Limited Stop routes, which is what they are with the sole exception of the ex X68 route.


It's been plying those same roads between Bromley and Croydon since shortly before the Second World War, so I can't see it disappearing anytime soon.

I don't have an agenda I'm simply putting forward my opinion.

If the choice is just between express buses and no express buses, obviously the choice would be express buses. But the more relevant question, as always, is, what is the best way of allocating resources? If you have express buses then you don't have something else. During the Livingstone boom years, TfL was often questioned about their lack of interest in express buses and their response was that you get better value for each pound on stopping bus services.

I tend to agree with that, normal stopping services are just better value for money.

When I worked for TfL they did some research on the 207/607 corridor and worked out that for the average passenger journey there was no benefit on waiting for a 607 over catching whichever bus came first.

I'm not surprised, when the 607 was operated from UX with Volvo Olympians some fast journeys could be had but nowadays buses just seem to plod along and mid route driver changeovers, for which an extra stop was added, just slow things down even more.

 

[H&I]

I recorded a full journey video of the very first departure from Croydon Library to Bromley North.

 

[341o2]

Incident on route 109 yesterday

A man has been arrested after allegedly threatening a London bus driver and passengers with an unknown substance, sparking a three-hour stand-off with police.

The Metropolitan Police said a man in his 40s boarded the 109 bus in Brixton on Sunday and was confronted by other passengers after he started smoking.

He began to threaten them with an “unknown substance” while the bus was travelling through Thornton Heath, with the police called shortly after 8.30pm.


Pictures showed officers dressed in chemical suits storming the bus, while passengers and the driver immediately left the vehicle once threats had been made.

It was later confirmed that the substance was not corrosive and the man was arrested shortly before midnight after being tasered.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/croydon-bus-met-police-acid-threat-b2494624.html

 

[chopperman21]

Interestingly Go-Coach has done something rare for a TfL route and they have begun operating a service on the 464 with a van! Since when did vans operate on London bus routes ?
YouTube video linked below with this weird service - not my video

A couple of other pictures of it, pic1 and rear.
As well as a link to Roger French's blog highlighting some occasions where the link has not worked as well.

 

[londonbridge]

Waiting for the bus this morning (157), as it approached the destination blind appeared to be blank, but as it got nearer I could see rows of very tiny (and I mean VERY tiny) lettering, which I couldn’t read, in a triangular pattern in the middle of the blind space. It looked somewhat like the chart at the optician with letters that get progressively smaller the further down the list you go. Why would it (the blind) be like this?

 

[bakerstreet]

Waiting for the bus this morning (157), as it approached the destination blind appeared to be blank, but as it got nearer I could see rows of very tiny (and I mean VERY tiny) lettering, which I couldn’t read, in a triangular pattern in the middle of the blind space. It looked somewhat like the chart at the optician with letters that get progressively smaller the further down the list you go. Why would it (the blind) be like this?

If it’s an LED ‘blind’ it may just be a fault. On some LED equipped routes near me, some blinds are blank, others the wrong ratio, I’ve seen one move as an untuned tv might, a few have the rear numbers unreadable - possibly because they are a different shape to the majority of routes.

 

[Goldfish62]

Waiting for the bus this morning (157), as it approached the destination blind appeared to be blank, but as it got nearer I could see rows of very tiny (and I mean VERY tiny) lettering, which I couldn’t read, in a triangular pattern in the middle of the blind space. It looked somewhat like the chart at the optician with letters that get progressively smaller the further down the list you go. Why would it (the blind) be like this?

Sounds like the end of the blind, with the manufacture, date and garage printed on it.

 

[heart-of-wessex]

Is there any places to see the Irizar ie buses? I believe they were introduced on route 358, but having a look on LVF none have worked the 358 today, just older vehicles.

I searched a handful of registrations on LVF to see what routes they did, but it says no recorded movements found or does it mean because I'm looking it up at 2100 they are parked up?

 

[Edvid]

They've not entered service yet.

Their introduction - originally set for March 2023 - has been delayed by a long-running dispute with Network Rail regarding the Orpington charger, in terms of power connections* and land ownership (see post #2658). Current thinking is that it'll happen this spring; to that end roadworks near the station are underway for the duration of this half-term.

Petts Wood & District Residents' Association

TfL will be working under temporary traffic signals at Station Road, Orpington from Saturday 10/02 until Sunday 18/02 whilst they complete electrical work for a new electric bus charger at Orpington...

www.facebook.com

[* Possibly concerns over potential interference (stray currents?) with third-rail, signalling and/or telecoms circuits. I'm not sure of the particulars.]

 

[Goldfish62]

They've not entered service yet.

Their introduction - originally set for March 2023 - has been delayed by a long-running dispute with Network Rail regarding the Orpington charger, in terms of power connections* and land ownership (see post #2658). Current thinking is that it'll happen this spring; to that end roadworks near the station are underway for the duration of this half-term.

Petts Wood & District Residents' Association

TfL will be working under temporary traffic signals at Station Road, Orpington from Saturday 10/02 until Sunday 18/02 whilst they complete electrical work for a new electric bus charger at Orpington...

www.facebook.com

[* Possibly concerns over potential interference (stray currents?) with third-rail, signalling and/or telecoms circuits. I'm not sure of the particulars.]

Land ownership issues appear to be what's holding things up, I'm told.

At this rate the Fastrack ones will be in service first!

 

[Snow1964]

Wrightbus has confirmed it is building another 87 electric buses for Arriva London (in addition to existing order of 34).

11 single deck Kite electroliners, and 76 Streetdeck electroliners

Pioneering zero-emission bus manufacturer Wrightbus has secured a new order with Arriva to deliver 87 new buses to London.

The order consists of 11 single-deck GB Kite Electroliners and 76 StreetDeck Electroliners - the world’s most efficient battery electric double-deck bus.

The buses, which will be operated on a number of routes around the capital, are due to be delivered from July and will further strengthen Arriva’s current zero-emissions bus fleet.

It comes on the back of an order the bus operator made last year with the Northern Ireland-based firm for 34 StreetDeck Electroliners and represents one of Arriva UK Bus' largest investments in a zero-emission fleet.

The buses are being manufactured at Wrightbus’s headquarters in Ballymena, supporting hundreds of new high-skilled jobs to help level up and grow the economy.

Wrightbus secures new Arriva London order

Pioneering zero-emission bus manufacturer Wrightbus has secured a new order with Arriva to deliver 87 new buses to London. The order consists of 11 single-deck GB Kite Electroliners and 76 StreetDeck Electroliners - the world’s most efficient battery electric double-deck bus.

wrightbus.com

 

[450.emu]

Wrightbus has confirmed it is building another 87 electric buses for Arriva London (in addition to existing order of 34).

11 single deck Kite electroliners, and 76 Streetdeck electroliners

Wrightbus secures new Arriva London order

Pioneering zero-emission bus manufacturer Wrightbus has secured a new order with Arriva to deliver 87 new buses to London. The order consists of 11 single-deck GB Kite Electroliners and 76 StreetDeck Electroliners - the world’s most efficient battery electric double-deck bus.

wrightbus.com

Have the buses for the 243 already been ordered, or are they planning for Volvo BZLs or E400 electrics instead for Tottenham?

 

[Snow1964]

Have the buses for the 243 already been ordered, or are they planning for Volvo BZLs or E400 electrics instead for Tottenham?

Think new batch are for route 50 (15 buses), 194 (14), 250 (22), 289 (15), 663 (1 bus). The 11 Kites for 255.

Not sure about 243 order, but can't work out where other 20 go, so possibly been swap around of earlier order

 

[PGAT]

Think new batch are for route 50 (15 buses), 194 (14), 250 (22), 289 (15), 663 (1 bus). The 11 Kites for 255.

Not sure about 243 order, but can't work out where other 20 go, so possibly been swap around of earlier order

The other 20 are spares

 

[London Trains]

Think new batch are for route 50 (15 buses), 194 (14), 250 (22), 289 (15), 663 (1 bus). The 11 Kites for 255.

Not sure about 243 order, but can't work out where other 20 go, so possibly been swap around of earlier order

They are spares - 50 (15 + 2 spare), 194 (14 + 2 spare), 250 (22 + 2 spare), 289 (15 + 2 spare), 663 (1) and 689 (1) = 76 buses.

 

[talldave]

Tried SL5 on Friday. Seems good but it's still crazy to hold a limited stop "express" service at a bus stop to "regulate the service" whilst other non Superloop buses go sailing past. It's only 35-40 minutes so regulate at the terminus. Regulating should be banned on Superloops whilst in service.

 

[route101]

I am looking to sample of a few of the superloop services in my next London trip. I have already travelled on the X26 from Heathrow to Croydon.

 

[Bishopstone]

Tried SL5 on Friday. Seems good but it's still crazy to hold a limited stop "express" service at a bus stop to "regulate the service" whilst other non Superloop buses go sailing past. It's only 35-40 minutes so regulate at the terminus. Regulating should be banned on Superloops whilst in service.

On my sample run the previous week we were held for a couple of minutes at Eden Park for service regulation, and my views on the matter are similar to yours.

I’m quite radicalised on this, though: I don’t think any London bus service should be held back for service regulation purposes, unless the frequency is less than 2 buses per hour.

 

[Deerfold]

On my sample run the previous week we were held for a couple of minutes at Eden Park for service regulation, and my views on the matter are similar to yours.

I’m quite radicalised on this, though: I don’t think any London bus service should be held back for service regulation purposes, unless the frequency is less than 2 buses per hour.

If they're not, a service which manages to get a couple of minutes ahead will get earlier and earlier as it approaches the bus in front and the bus behind will get later and later. That may help the passengers on the early bus, but makes the service much worse for those who aren't.

 

[Busaholic]

If they're not, a service which manages to get a couple of minutes ahead will get earlier and earlier as it approaches the bus in front and the bus behind will get later and later. That may help the passengers on the early bus, but makes the service much worse for those who aren't.

We all know the rationale, and the pros and cons, which to my mind are fairly evenly balanced. However on a limited stop, fairly short service, especially one that is being marketed as an ''express'' (erroneously so imo) it's better just to run the buses. Londoners (and I was one for forty years) can cope with a bus catching up the one in front, even overtaking it, heaven forfend!) without having an attack of the vapours. Holding the bus for no apparent reason is annoying for passengers, and then the poor driver gets it in the neck! Yes, if you got 3 or 4 buses on the SL5 basically all within sight of one another, then take action by short-turning the most behind-time runner, ensuring passengers get transferred. Bus drivers (well,most) are not idiots or antisocial, just leave them to get on with the job. If one driver's name keeps cropping up, then deal with it accordingly.

 

[MotCO]

If they're not, a service which manages to get a couple of minutes ahead will get earlier and earlier as it approaches the bus in front and the bus behind will get later and later. That may help the passengers on the early bus, but makes the service much worse for those who aren't.

But this assumes that the bus behind does not also run early. If the reason the buses are running early are the same (e.g. roadworks finished, retimed traffic lights etc), then all will run early.

 

[Edsmith]

Tried SL5 on Friday. Seems good but it's still crazy to hold a limited stop "express" service at a bus stop to "regulate the service" whilst other non Superloop buses go sailing past. It's only 35-40 minutes so regulate at the terminus. Regulating should be banned on Superloops whilst in service.

I agree that it's crazy regulating limited stop services like that especially on a short route like the SL5. I've seen the same thing on Uxbridge Road with limited stop buses on the 607 sat with hazards on whilst buses on the stopping services 207 and 427 go past them.

 

[Deerfold]

But this assumes that the bus behind does not also run early. If the reason the buses are running early are the same (e.g. roadworks finished, retimed traffic lights etc), then all will run early.

No, usually, if there's a plenty of passengers, if one bus gets ahead, then more passengers will catch the bus behind and it'll get later, with the bus behind that getting earlier as it's picking up fewer passengers. Unregulated services in London are chaotic.

 

[H&I]

Regulating bus services makes sense on long trunk routes with lots of boarding and alighting throughout, but does it make sense on express bus routes where passengers board towards the beginning of the route and alight towards the end of the route?