Lothian Group discussion (Lothian City, Lothian Country Bus and East Coast Buses)

[cnjb8]

Should we start the ADL versus MCV pool now, surprised we hadn't already tbh.

I know what I want it to be, and I think I know I'll be disappointed.

It's not MCV I've heard, apparently Lothian weren't impressed by the build quality of the eVoRa

 

[scosutsut]

It's not MCV I've heard, apparently Lothian weren't impressed by the build quality of the eVoRa

I've heard that it's definitely both and it's also definitely neither. Proving the world is full of BSers (not accusing you of that, for clarity!)

It remains wait and see for now! You would think ropey build quality would be something they were all over having (we assume) dumping Wrightbus completely over it.

They also love to single source which makes ADL a favourite again. Scarborough build maybe? I just can't imagine if they'd gone together in Falkirk we'd have seen them by now!

 

[CN04NRJ]

I've heard that it's definitely both and it's also definitely neither. Proving the world is full of BSers (not accusing you of that, for clarity!)

It remains wait and see for now! You would think ropey build quality would be something they were all over having (we assume) dumping Wrightbus completely over it.

They also love to single source which makes ADL a favourite again. Scarborough build maybe? I just can't imagine if they'd gone together in Falkirk we'd have seen them by now!

Given that it's been posted by several people (on different platforms as well as this one) they're being delivered from Cambridge I think that speaks volumes

 

[scotrail158713]

Lothian are running a virtual Doors Open Day this year: https://twitter.com/on_lothianbuses/status/1306867580947312640

Interesting. I’ve always meant to get along to one of these before but dates always seemed to clash with other commitments. Might take a look this time though as I’m likely to be free.

 

[lothian14]

Lothian's fleet strategy seems to be all over the place. When FOTF was first announced the plan was for the fleet to be based on Wright bodies and Volvo chassis. This then changed, understandably, to ADL/Volvo. Now it's looking like the next combination is MCV/Volvo. What happened to fleet uniformity?

 

[CN04NRJ]

Lothian's fleet strategy seems to be all over the place. When FOTF was first announced the plan was for the fleet to be based on Wright bodies and Volvo chassis. This then changed, understandably, to ADL/Volvo. Now it's looking like the next combination is MCV/Volvo. What happened to fleet uniformity?

If ADL aren't offering a heavyweight body for Volvo (or Scania/Mercedes) chassis what alternative is there on the UK market at the moment? That's if they are MCVs of course

 

[lothian14]

If ADL aren't offering a heavyweight body for Volvo (or Scania/Mercedes) chassis what alternative is there on the UK market at the moment? That's if they are MCVs of course

ADL weren't offering a tri-axeled E400 body for a Volvo chassis either until Lothian requested one. Surely ADL would be willing to design a suitable single decker body for a customer of Lothian's clout/volume?

Anyway, isn't the trend these days in the UK for lightweight single deckers as they're cheaper to purchase and operate?

 

[CN04NRJ]

ADL weren't offering a tri-axeled E400 body for a Volvo chassis either until Lothian requested one. Surely ADL would be willing to design a suitable single decker body for a customer of Lothian's clout/volume?

Anyway, isn't the trend these days in the UK for lightweight single deckers as they're cheaper to purchase and operate?

I think you can largely put that trend down to operators changing first generation low floors and high floors (B10Ms, Darts, early Tridents etc) en masse in the last few years with PSVAR requirements coming into force rendering most older vehicles useless.

Stagecoach are a high volume customer with lots of 'clout' and now that there isn't currently a heavyweight ADL body even they've been buying MCV (Merthyr for Trawscymru and in Cambridge). Who knows though?

 

[GusB]

I've heard that it's definitely both and it's also definitely neither. Proving the world is full of BSers (not accusing you of that, for clarity!)

Schrödinger's Bus?

Lothian's fleet strategy seems to be all over the place. When FOTF was first announced the plan was for the fleet to be based on Wright bodies and Volvo chassis. This then changed, understandably, to ADL/Volvo. Now it's looking like the next combination is MCV/Volvo. What happened to fleet uniformity?

It's still uniform in that they're going for Volvo mechanicals. Could we also have a definition for FOTF please, as required by forum rules?

 

[scosutsut]

Lothian's fleet strategy seems to be all over the place. When FOTF was first announced the plan was for the fleet to be based on Wright bodies and Volvo chassis. This then changed, understandably, to ADL/Volvo. Now it's looking like the next combination is MCV/Volvo. What happened to fleet uniformity?

To be fair, Singles were Darts, Dart SPDs, followed by B7RLE/Wright for nearly 10 years then 7900s then B8RLE/Wright and then Milk Floats* now B8RLE/... Bar the B7RLE run its never been particularly consistent.

* - Wright StreetHotAirs I think is the proper term?

 

[CN04NRJ]

To be fair, Singles were Darts, Dart SPDs, followed by B7RLE/Wright for nearly 10 years then 7900s then B8RLE/Wright and now B8RLE/... Bar the B7RLE run its never been particularly consistent.

And it's not as though they make up a large proportion of the fleet anyway (at least not currently, who knows what the future holds).

Single deck orders seem to be a few years apart anyway, so after this batch would we have seen any more orders in the next 2-4 years if covid hadn't happened?

 

[Lothiangem22]

Ultimately, even without a single deck ADL fleet, there is still uniformality in the “new” fleet.
The interior will be the Lothian standard which for the majority of passengers is what is noticed - branding, seating, colour schemes, next stop information. The new vehicles are very much “Lothian standard” and from a technical point of view all the products are Volvos with common parts regardless of builder.

 

[OmniCity999]

Ultimately, even without a single deck ADL fleet, there is still uniformality in the “new” fleet.
The interior will be the Lothian standard which for the majority of passengers is what is noticed - branding, seating, colour schemes, next stop information. The new vehicles are very much “Lothian standard” and from a technical point of view all the products are Volvos with common parts regardless of builder.

Issues arise when theres panel damage or configurations need to change however.

Then there's glass, advertising and passenger information systems. Each micro-fleet isnt exactly the same which means the parts store is rather varied.

A uniformed fleet of a product from a single manufacturer means every part can be used on every vehicle, even sometimes down to glass, which we only hold a very small stock of.

to be overly pedantic, it even goes down to cleaning and fuelling teams.

You have to train each team on where the AdBlue filler, fuel filler, screen washer and water fillers are, on multiple micro-fleets. The ideal is 1 uniformed fleet where everything is so similar that you can train an entire team on a singular vehicle, regardless of whether its double or single deck.

The idea before the previous managements departure (and Covid) was to sway more towards ADL and eventually only have 1 fleet type.

 

[Cesarcollie]

Issues arise when theres panel damage or configurations need to change however.

Then there's glass, advertising and passenger information systems. Each micro-fleet isnt exactly the same which means the parts store is rather varied.

A uniformed fleet of a product from a single manufacturer means every part can be used on every vehicle, even sometimes down to glass, which we only hold a very small stock of.

to be overly pedantic, it even goes down to cleaning and fuelling teams.

You have to train each team on where the AdBlue filler, fuel filler, screen washer and water fillers are, on multiple micro-fleets. The ideal is 1 uniformed fleet where everything is so similar that you can train an entire team on a singular vehicle, regardless of whether its double or single deck.

The idea before the previous managements departure (and Covid) was to sway more towards ADL and eventually only have 1 fleet type.

But it does also tend to mean the ‘sole supplier’ is tempted to get greedy on price if they know you’re always going to buy from them......that applies whether you’re buying buses or staplers!

 

[OmniCity999]

But it does also tend to mean the ‘sole supplier’ is tempted to get greedy on price if they know you’re always going to buy from them......that applies whether you’re buying buses or staplers!

That's exactly what happened with Wright. The Gemini 3 open toppers were horrendously over priced compared to the equivalent closed top. That was the start of the spending spree by the previous management**.

That coupled with the quality of the product dropping off a cliff and the company eventually going down the spout killed the partnership.

**(Open toppers, then East Coast***, then Lothian country with the 43***, then Coaches, the heritage fleet, then a West Lothian expansion to Lothian Coutnry, then the XLBs... which to be fair, are excellent machines - if only the entire double deck fleet can be XLB's.)

***(thats worked out very well to be fair and indeed worked out best for everyone)

 

[overthewater]

Surly the smart thing to do would have been to buy Close tops and then chop of the roofs inhouse?

 

[OmniCity999]

Surly the smart thing to do would have been to buy Close tops and then chop of the roofs inhouse?

it's not as simple as that unfortunately.

They all have custom panels that get the consistent build over all 30 vehicles. Nevermind the structural strengthening in place in the roof owing to the glass staircase.

Then theres getting flooring, side panels, individual entertainment systems. Interior fixtures and fittings, custom glass. The list goes on.

and not to mention the complete loss of warranty and aftercare as soon as you cut each one up.

so that wouldnt be the smart thing, unfortunately.

 

[scotrail158713]

then chop of the roofs inhouse?

I’m trying really hard to resist any jokes regarding bridges here

 

[route101]

Maybe its a just a E200MMC?

 

[OmniCity999]

Maybe its a just a E200MMC?

They are Volvo powered, so it isnt an E200MMC.

 

[scosutsut]

I’m trying really hard to resist any jokes regarding bridges here

I was going to say, isn't Network Rail, technically, the number one open top bus convertor in the country?

 

[CN04NRJ]

Maybe its a just a E200MMC?

They're only built up to 11.8m with 39 non tip-up seats.

Couldn't see a lightweight chassis being up to the demands of Edinburgh anyway even with the 6 cylinder engine, would also mean a return to Voith gearboxes (or even less likely, Alison).

 

[Jordan Adam]

They're only built up to 11.8m with 39 non tip-up seats.

Couldn't see a lightweight chassis being up to the demands of Edinburgh anyway even with the 6 cylinder engine, would also mean a return to Voith gearboxes (or even less likely, Alison).

ADL offer the 12.8M E200XLB which is pretty much identical to a 11.8M 6cyl example but with a tag axle and (obviously) 1 metre longer. Although none have been built for the UK

 

[scotrail158713]

I was going to say, isn't Network Rail, technically, the number one open top bus convertor in the country?

I suppose, technically, yes. Although they maybe shouldn’t get the blame for the one at the Western General.

 

[Bus9120UK]

(Not my picture!) https://www.flickr.com/photos/km_edinburgh/50360665946/
Appears bus 379 has recieved a Wright Logo on the front whilst still being in the older livery, I think this looks a bit weird and doesn't fit the livery but what do you guys think?

 

[CN04NRJ]

(Not my picture!) https://www.flickr.com/photos/km_edinburgh/50360665946/
Appears bus 379 has recieved a Wright Logo on the front whilst still being in the older livery, I think this looks a bit weird and doesn't fit the livery but what do you guys think?

Saw that yesterday and thought it looked quite odd - it suits 302 but definitely not the older livery. Was it 379 that was involved in that incident on the 24 route recently?

 

[ScotRail158725]

Saw that yesterday and thought it looked quite odd - it suits 302 but definitely not the older livery. Was it 379 that was involved in that incident on the 24 route recently?

that was 373, which has come back out with the front and offside panels below the drivers windows repainted

379s been off the road since last July in what would appear to be an accident with possibly another bus? as the whole front has been replaced

 

[Lothian285]

572 looks as though it may have been sold (not my photo): https://www.flickr.com/photos/allysrailandairpics/50357646703/in/faves-146661030@N04/

 

[hst43102]

ex ECB 20799 / 20800 are now with Stagecoach Midlands, at Northampton.

 

[ScotRail158725]

ex ECB 20799 / 20800 are now with Stagecoach Midlands, at Northampton.

all 7 of them are with Stagecoach