Lothian Group discussion (Lothian City, Lothian Country Bus and East Coast Buses)

[ChrisPJ]

how old is the second photograph in the article?

Don’t know when Stagecoach’s Yellow Taxibus experiment stopped operating but that looks like a Trident branded for the 26 going the other way (red roof) which would date the photo to no earlier than 2004.

 

[oldman]

I don't know why they are complaining about times going into the city centre, do they know it's a big city?

Edinburgh buses are dreadfully slow compared to a lot of other cities due to congestion and lack of bus priority. At the moment buses are squeezed between the active travel lobby and the motorist lobby.

I had to go to Ocean Terminal from SW Edinburgh to get my flu and covid jags - Google quotes 66 minutes by bus if its on time for about 8 miles so 7 miles per hou. It says 32 minutes to drive.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Edinburgh buses are dreadfully slow compared to a lot of other cities due to congestion and lack of bus priority. At the moment buses are squeezed between the active travel lobby and the motorist lobby.

I had to go to Ocean Terminal from SW Edinburgh to get my flu and covid jags - Google quotes 66 minutes by bus if its on time for about 8 miles so 7 miles per hou. It says 32 minutes to drive.

A lot of that is down to the fact there are as you say insufficient bus priority messages, but there’s also too many bus stops. If the entire city’s bus stops’ locations were to be redone I reckon a good 25% could be gotten rid of. To add to that buses stop too much in the city centre. Twice on Princes Street for example is plenty, but some stop three times.

 

[oldman]

If the entire city’s bus stops’ locations were to be redone I reckon a good 25% could be gotten rid of.

There are certainly some, but 25% looks way over the top. I expect some council crayonistas would have fun putting dots on a map at precisely 400m separations (see the offical guidance) but when you have to allow for junctions, crossings, gradients and the rest it's not so easy.

 

[CN04NRJ]

Edinburgh buses are dreadfully slow compared to a lot of other cities due to congestion and lack of bus priority. At the moment buses are squeezed between the active travel lobby and the motorist lobby.

I had to go to Ocean Terminal from SW Edinburgh to get my flu and covid jags - Google quotes 66 minutes by bus if its on time for about 8 miles so 7 miles per hou. It says 32 minutes to drive.

When I worked in Cardiff almost every bus lane had multiple cameras, including at loading areas and near shops/takeaways. Within a few weeks of them going live the bus lanes were clear 99% of the time.

There's virtually no enforcement of bus lanes in Edinburgh, a single deliveroo driver can cause havoc by parking at a bus stop or cycle lane and there's absolutely nothing to stop them.

I believe the fine just dumping your car in a bus lane or parking spot in the centre (and not paying for parking) is actually cheaper than the parking tariff for the day?

That's without mentioning intermittent bus lanes broken up by cycle lane bollards or bins that are kept in the road.

 

[scotrail158713]

A lot of that is down to the fact there are as you say insufficient bus priority messages, but there’s also too many bus stops. If the entire city’s bus stops’ locations were to be redone I reckon a good 25% could be gotten rid of. To add to that buses stop too much in the city centre. Twice on Princes Street for example is plenty, but some stop three times.

There's also the Princes Street centric aspect of the bus network as well. If you were driving from south west Edinburgh to Ocean Terminal you wouldn't go via Princes Street but you have to if going by bus.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I don't think we're going to get the council or the the various other body is that advocate mass tourism away from The Princess Street centric element for quite some time. And and I don't necessarily think that removing bus stops is a particularly good idea, I am aware of some areas that have done that and it's resulted in a reduction in bus usage as if people have got to walk too far to reach a bus stop particularly elderly or disabled they will find another way of doing it or not do it at all. But repositioning of quite a number would certainly work.

This is, however, a topic for a different thread entirely as it doesn't just affect Lothian buses but all other operators that currently serve or may potentially serve Edinburgh in the future

 

[Bus9120UK]

Repaint wise, 1033 & 1034 both returned earlier this week and are now both on the ramp at Marine ready for transfer to Livingston. 1033 is the first one without the front Wright Badge to be painted. 179 has been spotted in Madder & white which confirms that all 15 will certainly both be moving to City. This example again is missing side legal lettering. 1032 is ready for paint departure at Seafield with 187 just about there, it's got a few panels missing but it surely has to be away in due course. 188 will be inside just about ready as well.

 

[LothianBusesPh]

Does anyone know when the BZL demonstrator will be out tomorrow? Information will be much appreciated, thanks!

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Time is running out if anyone wants to catch one of the remaining Lothian Country green and cream ex London B9TL’s in service. It’s just 1003 and 1013 left in service as 1030-1031 have now swapped over for repainted 1033-1034.

1004 remains on repair at Ferrymill, while 1028 is now stored at Marine. The green and cream livery will live on for a little while longer but I’d say for Lothian Country themselves it has potentially got just a week or so to go now.

 

[stevenedin]

Time is running out if anyone wants to catch one of the remaining Lothian Country green and cream ex London B9TL’s in service. It’s just 1003 and 1013 left in service as 1030-1031 have now swapped over for repainted 1033-1034.

1004 remains on repair at Ferrymill, while 1028 is now stored at Marine. The green and cream livery will live on for a little while longer but I’d say for Lothian Country themselves it has potentially got just a week or so to go now.

Meanwhile, 935 in Lothian Country green and cream was on the 124 today

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Meanwhile, 935 in Lothiancountry green and cream was on the 124 today

935 looks to be a permanent addition to the ECB fleet now. I’d therefore expect it to be repainted along with the 6 remaining ex Airlink Gemini2’s that are still green and grey. They are, 937, 939, 942, 944, 945 and 948. So that’s 7 left to do, plus the Gemini3’s (there’s 8 of them: 20001-20008) which takes the total to 15.

It seems likely that ECB will restart on completion of Lothian Country and I’d also expect ECB to pick up some paint float buses as cover at this point. Whether this would be some of the 09 plates, or the 4 potentially surplus (not confirmed for sure) Lothian Country ex London B9TL’s remains to be seen for now. No doubt all will be revealed in the coming weeks.

 

[computerSaysNo]

Can anyone confirm which 25 to Heriot Watt journey the 0723 X44 from Tranent forms? The Express PDF confirms that it does operate through but there doesn't seem to be a part-route journey in the 25 timetable for it to fit; the part-routes 0758, 0819, and 0839 from Waverley Steps, all look to be formed off X26s.
There is an 0815 from Waverley Steps which would seem to fit, given that said X44 arrives Waterloo Place at 0808, but the timetable for the 25 says the 0815 starts back from Foot of the Walk, so it wouldn't quite fit. Thanks.

 

[Jordan1296]

Can anyone confirm which 25 to Heriot Watt journey the 0723 X44 from Tranent forms? The Express PDF confirms that it does operate through but there doesn't seem to be a part-route journey in the 25 timetable for it to fit; the part-routes 0758, 0819, and 0839 from Waverley Steps, all look to be formed off X26s.
There is an 0815 from Waverley Steps which would seem to fit, given that said X44 arrives Waterloo Place at 0808, but the timetable for the 25 says the 0815 starts back from Foot of the Walk, so it wouldn't quite fit. Thanks.

I would have said the 0819 from Waverley Steps. BusTimes’ live tracker times with start of journeys and the actual timetable never seem to match up though. Going through the last week of that particular run, 0812, 0815 and 0820 have appeared as starting times for that particular 25. By power of deduction, I would say 0819.

 

[LothianBusesPh]

The demonstrator is not out today or tomorrow.

 

[stevenedin]

I wonder when Lothian will announce the service changes for Leith Walk since it is opening at the Leith end on 13th February according to tye Trams to Newhaven Newsletter

Two-way traffic and trams set for Leith Walk – Trams to Newhaven

two way traffic on Leith Walk

www.edinburgh.gov.uk

Two-way traffic will return to Leith Walk this month, as preparations for tram testing begin.

North- and southbound traffic along the length of Leith Walk will be reintroduced during the week commencing 13 February, followed by the electrification of the full line.
Energisation of the line will allow for testing and commissioning to begin, with the first test trams expected on the route at the beginning of March. Final track preparations will also take place in the lead up to the first test tram running.
All tram track, overhead line poles and communications and power ducting have been installed, 93% of the overhead lines are in place and the final section at Picardy Place is being installed over the next two weeks.
Councillor Scott Arthur, Transport and Environment Convener, said:

In just a matter of weeks we’ll see test trams running the length of the Trams to Newhaven route, which is really exciting. Energising the overhead lines and buffering of the tram tracks are the final steps before this happens.
Reopening Leith Walk to two-way traffic is a key moment for the project too and, I’m sure, for all those who live and work in the area. I’d like to thank residents and businesses for their patience and support while we’ve carried out these works.
Once fully complete, this project will be transformative for Leith Walk and the rest of the route, while benefitting the wider city economy and helping to cut congestion. Not only will it provide reliable, high-capacity connections to the north of the city but has significantly improved and enhanced public spaces and active travel links along the line.

The Trams to Newhaven project remains on schedule for completion by spring 2023 and within the £207.3m budget, with all major construction now complete ahead of the testing and commissioning period.
However, due to industry wide challenges with the availability of materials and skilled labour, impacted by Brexit and the war in Ukraine along with significant demand for labour in the UK and overseas, there are small pockets of public realm works that will now be completed over the coming months. Full details of the updated programme are available here.
A communications campaign has been carried out to remind residents, businesses and stakeholders about the electrification of overhead lines, including safety requirements and permits needed to carry out any work. This work was originally scheduled to take place in October but was re-programmed to allow key infrastructure works to be completed.
To allow for work to connect the lines to take place, Edinburgh Trams services from the airport will terminate at the West End between 13 and 19 February. Further information is available on the Edinburgh Trams website.
Published: 3rd February 2023

 

[Darklord8899]

I would have said the 0819 from Waverley Steps. BusTimes’ live tracker times with start of journeys and the actual timetable never seem to match up though. Going through the last week of that particular run, 0812, 0815 and 0820 have appeared as starting times for that particular 25. By power of deduction, I would say 0819.

Having looked at the timetables I'm 99.99% sure the 0819 comes off the X26...

So the 3 X26's arrive at Waverley Steps (stop PP) at 0757, 0818 and 0838
And the 3 25's depart Waverley Steps (stop PP) at 0758, 0819 and 0839 (this being the first stop for these 25's)

 

[Bus9120UK]

Having looked at the timetables I'm 99.99% sure the 0819 comes off the X26...

It does - I pass it on a daily basis. You can have a look at the history of bus 481 from Friday to confirm this, too: https://bustimes.org/vehicles/loth-481?date=2023-02-03

Can anyone confirm which 25 to Heriot Watt journey the 0723 X44 from Tranent forms? The Express PDF confirms that it does operate through but there doesn't seem to be a part-route journey in the 25 timetable for it to fit; the part-routes 0758, 0819, and 0839 from Waverley Steps, all look to be formed off X26s.
There is an 0815 from Waverley Steps which would seem to fit, given that said X44 arrives Waterloo Place at 0808, but the timetable for the 25 says the 0815 starts back from Foot of the Walk, so it wouldn't quite fit. Thanks.

957 tracker history via BusTimes shows it operating the 0815 service after coming of the X44: https://bustimes.org/vehicles/loth-957?date=2023-02-03# , albeit running 3 mins early. 1009 can be looked at too: https://bustimes.org/vehicles/loth-1009?date=2023-02-02 Perhaps it's a duplicate addition operating at the same time to allow for the high passenger numbers?

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Can anyone confirm which 25 to Heriot Watt journey the 0723 X44 from Tranent forms? The Express PDF confirms that it does operate through but there doesn't seem to be a part-route journey in the 25 timetable for it to fit; the part-routes 0758, 0819, and 0839 from Waverley Steps, all look to be formed off X26s.
There is an 0815 from Waverley Steps which would seem to fit, given that said X44 arrives Waterloo Place at 0808, but the timetable for the 25 says the 0815 starts back from Foot of the Walk, so it wouldn't quite fit. Thanks.

If you can’t find a journey for it it’s quite likely it’s a duplicate run. These don’t need to be registered in the timetable if they are a duplicate bus of another journey.

The 0800 journey that starts at the Foot of the Walk comes off a 16. However I believe the bus coming off the X44 is likely a duplicate of this anyway.

 

[Darklord8899]

If you can’t find a journey for it it’s quite likely it’s a duplicate run. These don’t need to be registered in the timetable if they are a duplicate bus of another journey.

The 0800 journey that starts at the Foot of the Walk comes off a 16. However I believe the bus coming off the X44 is likely a duplicate of this anyway.

I did notice while looking into the X26/X44 running on as 25's that there is a 0908 25 Heriot Watt to Elm Row - is this one of those extras returning to town? Does it then run on as something else?

(Not that it really matters, just curious...)

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

I did notice while looking into the X26/X44 running on as 25's that there is a 0908 25 Heriot Watt to Elm Row - is this one of those extras returning to town? Does it then run on as something else?

(Not that it really matters, just curious...)

This looks to be the XLB that does the 16 onto the 25 at 0800 as mentioned above. Looking at it I suspect this is another duplicate run. It goes into the depot on arrival at Elm Row where the diagram appears to end.

Strangely that would mean the 0800 Foot of the Walk to Heriot Watt is an advertised run, while the return to Elm Row isn’t? Very strange.

 

[computerSaysNo]

If you can’t find a journey for it it’s quite likely it’s a duplicate run. These don’t need to be registered in the timetable if they are a duplicate bus of another journey.

What's the advantage of running a duplicate 25 then given the vehicle is guaranteed to be at Waterloo Place at that time? Rather than adding another 25 journey to the timetable?

 

[Darklord8899]

This looks to be the XLB that does the 16 onto the 25 at 0800 as mentioned above. Looking at it I suspect this is another duplicate run. It goes into the depot on arrival at Elm Row where the diagram appears to end.

Strangely that would mean the 0800 Foot of the Walk to Heriot Watt is an advertised run, while the return to Elm Row isn’t? Very strange.

Ahh, thank you!

It was the same pre-covid, with the X26/22....

There was a AM X26 That continued as a 22 from Princes St to Gyle Centre (this was noted on the X26 timetable, but the journey to Gyle never appeared on the 22 timetable), however that bus returned as a part route 22 to Foot of the Walk (where presumably it would dead run back to Marine, or move on to a Marine ran service) This journey was shown on the 22 timetable.

I guess there will be reasons behind it (obviously there is no requirement to show duplicates in timetables)

What's the advantage of running a duplicate 25 then given the vehicle is guaranteed to be at Waterloo Place at that time? Rather than adding another 25 journey to the timetable?

Extra capacity for students/staff to get to Heriot Watt University? (At a guess)

 

[Bus9120UK]

Extra capacity for students/staff to get to Heriot Watt University? (At a guess)

My thoughts exactly. I pass these 25s on a daily basis and if the duplicated runs didn't run, then there would be problems with capacity.

 

[computerSaysNo]

Extra capacity for students/staff to get to Heriot Watt University? (At a guess)

Yes but why run it as a duplicate rather than a timetabled service?

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

I myself have never understood why they didn’t opt for an X25 to pick up a lot of these passengers. This could run towards Heriot Watt in the morning and towards the city in the evening, essentially the opposite of the former X25. Of course you would still need the extras on the 25, 34 and 35 too. I think this would get the students moving quicker, but of course there’s got to be the demand for it.

 

[computerSaysNo]

I myself have never understood why they didn’t opt for an X25 to pick up a lot of these passengers. This could run towards Heriot Watt in the morning and towards the city in the evening, essentially the opposite of the former X25. Of course you would still need the extras on the 25, 34 and 35 too. I think this would get the students moving quicker, but of course there’s got to be the demand for it.

Maybe they're hoping that the students take the X27/X28 and then walk from the main road? Although that obviously isn't happening or there'd be a lot more X27/X28s in the morning.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Maybe they're hoping that the students take the X27/X28 and then walk from the main road? Although that obviously isn't happening or there'd be a lot more X27/X28s in the morning.

This goes back a number of years though, well before the X27/X28 existed, and while the previous 35 ran to the Airport.

Ideally you’d want a through road from one side of the campus to the other, but that’s never existed. Only that would allow the X27/X28 to serve Heriot Watt.

 

[roadierway77]

I myself have never understood why they didn’t opt for an X25 to pick up a lot of these passengers. This could run towards Heriot Watt in the morning and towards the city in the evening, essentially the opposite of the former X25. Of course you would still need the extras on the 25, 34 and 35 too. I think this would get the students moving quicker, but of course there’s got to be the demand for it.

As a student at Heriot Watt, there is definitely demand. The 25 to Heriot Watt in the morning and to the city in the evening are often full and standing, with the majority of passengers travelling to/from the campus and Sighthill. An express service would certainly be welcome and well-used, in my opinion.

 

[Darklord8899]

Yes but why run it as a duplicate rather than a timetabled service?

It probably comes down to rules and regulations regarding a timetabled journey and a duplicate journey

(I'm not an expert by any means, but I believe there are differences, like there is no requirement to show a duplicate journey in the published timetable)