Manchester - Liverpool Electrification

[po8crg]

On Liverpool-Scotland, I was trying to work out where rolling stock was coming from.

The next TPE franchisee will be placing a huge order for new EMUs. I was trying to reckon it out. There are 51 185 units, 10 350/4s, plus 9 170s. I'd expect at least unit-for-unit replacement, though with 4-car EMUs replacing 2 or 3 car DMUs.

It will depend on what the CP6 electrification looks like. If Selby-Hull is on there and Middlesbrough and Scarborough are either electrified or cut back, then that's all five of the North TransPennine routes to join the Manchester-Scotland and Manchester-Blackpool routes. Incidentally, Hull electrification will resolve the issue with 185s on that route that originally forced the lease of the 170s; EMUs are much lighter than 185s, and will not have a problem on the Hull lines.

I'd expect TPE to retain enough 185s for any continuing-diesel routes, though there may not be any (every route is being considered for electrification, to be transferred to another franchise, or cut back where the wires end) but to order 4-car EMUs to replace 3-car 185s on the electrified routes and also to replace the 350/4s. They can then put options into the contract for trains to cover CP6 and CP7 electrifications. My back-of-an-envelope calculation is for about 50 new 4-car EMUs. Could be much more, especially if they want to run all Manchester-Leeds services as 8-car.

It might be a smart move to take up options as soon as electrifications are confirmed and take early delivery of trains for (e.g.) Manchester-Hull and use them for an experimental Liverpool-Scotland service while the wires are still going up in East Yorkshire - and then add on to the order if Liverpool-Scotland is profitable, or abandon the service and transfer the trains to the Hull line if it isn't.

The 350/4s will have plenty of homes - there are lots of 350s running in the rest of the country - and the post-Pacer DMU shortage will see the 185s being snapped up, so they don't need to worry about annoying their RoSCo by returning stock from the leases.

 

[WatcherZero]

Might not be brand new, might be 387's ordered due to Thameslink delays which will be only a couple of years old.

 

[Chris125]

Might not be brand new, might be 387's ordered due to Thameslink delays which will be only a couple of years old.

Though clearly possible I suspect and hope they head to the Great Western, IIRC the Northern Hub is allowing for 8x23m on TPE and it would surprise me if any bidder didn't propose to maximise capacity.

Chris

 

[LDECRexile]

On Saturday the admirable nw-sparks.blogspot.co.uk reported there was believed to be a blockade between Edge Hill and Earlestown/St Helens Central on 27th and 28th December 2014.

This has now made it into the national timetable.

If you look up (say) Lime St-Huyton on 27th Dec at Noon it shows a yellow peril triangle which drills down to "Buses replace trains between Liverpool Lime Street and Earlestown / St Helens Central on Saturday 27 and Sunday 28 December 2014"

With 25th and 26th available this gives the chance to get lots done, but I wonder who will pay.

 

[Anchorman_02]

It would be nice to think that tpe will get all new electrics but that isn't necessarily the case.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The "moveable feast" scenario that appears to be the timetable of the Lancashire Triangle electrification project is hopefully one from which forward planning lessons will be learnt, when the future electrification projects come to their planning stages in the North of England.

 

[po8crg]

It would be nice to think that tpe will get all new electrics but that isn't necessarily the case.

Agreed, but there aren't a lot of suitable electrics that could be transferred. Bear in mind that TPE sells a lot of First Class tickets, and will need decent-quality (i.e. 2+1) FC accommodation to keep up the revenue. Also, anything going on WCML will need 110mph capability, which is going to exclude a lot of older EMUs.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The next TPE franchisee will be placing a huge order for new EMUs. I was trying to reckon it out. There are 51 185 units, 10 350/4s, plus 9 170s. I'd expect at least unit-for-unit replacement, though with 4-car EMUs replacing 2 or 3 car DMUs.

Only about 30 I reckon, for CP5 anyway.
TP South/CLC will remain diesel after TP North goes electric, and DfT don't let TOCs order trains just to sit around until lines are wired.
There's also the possibility that some services (eg Blackpool and Selby) will go 319 (or other cascades) as there will be plenty of those available.

 

[martynbristow]

I'm confused by the time frames here:
If the new TPE EMU's are for future electrification thats a couple of years away at least.
Scotland-Liverpool is ready to go (nearly).
But what should the service be by passenger. Are they going to be doing Liverpool-Scotland, i doubt, or more likely little hops up the WCML.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I'm confused by the time frames here:
If the new TPE EMU's are for future electrification thats a couple of years away at least.
Scotland-Liverpool is ready to go (nearly).
But what should the service be by passenger. Are they going to be doing Liverpool-Scotland, i doubt, or more likely little hops up the WCML.

The DfT has never offered a Liverpool-Scotland service, and it isn't mentioned in the TPE 2016 prospectus (although that concentrates on current routes).
It does figure in the WCML RUS (2011), and is analysed as an option for increasing the Liverpool-Preston service frequency.
It says that it would need 4 units to attach to Manchester-Scotland services, but would be poor value for money.
Network Rail does its usual thing of describing the options is great detail, and then discarding all of them with a shrug.

I think, though, that all this has been overtaken by a combination of Rail North, the northern "powerhouse", city regions and devolution.
Even the Scottish devolution debate will have had an effect (the Scots also want better cross-border links).
So who knows what will emerge next month?
A fast electric Northern Liverpool-Preston (or further north) service would at least help.
As long as it doesn't waste its time stopping at Balshaw Lane etc!

 

[L+Y]

A fast electric Northern Liverpool-Preston (or further north) service would at least help.
As long as it doesn't waste its time stopping at Balshaw Lane etc!

It's a bloody shame that the Merseyrail Northern Line can't be used: before it was severed, the Liverpool-Glasgow fast trains used to do Liverpool-Preston in 33 minutes!

 

[GRALISTAIR]

--- A fast electric Northern Liverpool-Preston (or further north) service would at least help. As long as it doesn't waste its time stopping at Balshaw Lane etc!

So via St Helens Jct rather than via St Helens Central then?

 

[ainsworth74]

Is there much demand for Liverpool - Scotland (presumably it would alternate between Glasgow and Edinburgh)? It's not a flow that seems immediately obvious...

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Is there much demand for Liverpool - Scotland (presumably it would alternate between Glasgow and Edinburgh)? It's not a flow that seems immediately obvious...

Bigger than Liverpool-Norwich, I expect, which somehow deserves an hourly train.
Like Cardiff-Manchester/Liverpool, and some of the XC routes, it's odd how services went from alternating destinations to a fixed hourly pattern favouring one destination over another.
Birmingham-Scotland is 2tph, Leeds-Scotland is hourly, Manchester-Scotland is hourly, Liverpool-Scotland: nil.

 

[martynbristow]

It's a bloody shame that the Merseyrail Northern Line can't be used: before it was severed, the Liverpool-Glasgow fast trains used to do Liverpool-Preston in 33 minutes!

It is a shame, maybe they will get round to electrifying Preston-Ormskirk :P

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Is there much demand for Liverpool - Scotland (presumably it would alternate between Glasgow and Edinburgh)? It's not a flow that seems immediately obvious...

8 car EMU (2X4) every four hours splitting at Carstairs to do both Edinburgh and Glasgow as in the 1970s and 1980s?

 

[ianhr]

Bigger than Liverpool-Norwich, I expect, which somehow deserves an hourly train.
Like Cardiff-Manchester/Liverpool, and some of the XC routes, it's odd how services went from alternating destinations to a fixed hourly pattern favouring one destination over another.
Birmingham-Scotland is 2tph, Leeds-Scotland is hourly, Manchester-Scotland is hourly, Liverpool-Scotland: nil.

I think part of the problem is the aversion to splitting/joining trains en route even though this is commonplace on the former Southern Region (SWT, Southern, SE trains). With EMU operation I cannot see why Liverpool & Manchester sections cannot be joined at Preston then divide again at Carstairs for Edinburgh & Glasgow.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I think part of the problem is the aversion to splitting/joining trains en route even though this is commonplace on the former Southern Region (SWT, Southern, SE trains). With EMU operation I cannot see why Liverpool & Manchester sections cannot be joined at Preston then divide again at Carstairs for Edinburgh & Glasgow.

Exactly. With paths in short supply etc- this has to be sensible IMHO.

 

[Bald Rick]

Bigger than Liverpool-Norwich, I expect, which somehow deserves an hourly train.
Like Cardiff-Manchester/Liverpool, and some of the XC routes, it's odd how services went from alternating destinations to a fixed hourly pattern favouring one destination over another.
Birmingham-Scotland is 2tph, Leeds-Scotland is hourly, Manchester-Scotland is hourly, Liverpool-Scotland: nil.

Population of West Mids urban area: 2.44m
Population of Manchester urban area: 2.55m
Population of W Yorks urban area: 1.78m
Population of Liverpool urban area: 0.86m

Norwich-Liverpool is in effect 2 or 3 services joined together at Nottingham / Sheffield.

Manchester - Scotland has only been hourly very recently, it's not so long ago that you could count the services per day on the fingers of one hand.

A Liverpool - Scotland service would only really help people travelling to / from Liverpool, and then only to those travelling north of Preston.

The Liverpool - Glasgow / Edinburgh market is of a size that no airline sees the point in serving it. Unlike the others quoted (save Leeds- Edinburgh).

 

[childwallblues]

It is a shame, maybe they will get round to electrifying Preston-Ormskirk :P

Opening up Liverpool Central-Ormskirk-Preston is part of the Merseyside 30 year plan, but it would be unlikely that this line ever saw Anglo-Scottish services again.

 

[mwmbwls]

Exactly. With paths in short supply etc- this has to be sensible IMHO.

Prior to electrification six Monday to Friday northbound TPE trains used to split at Preston to reduce pathing requirements between Manchester Airport and Preston.The new platform at the airport and the extra platforms to be built at Piccadilly might ease these problems but a joined train would still only need one driver.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/mwmbwls/8290956487/sizes/c/
Would splitting and joining at Carlisle be easier than Carstairs at the northern end in terms of speeding up journey times?

 

[martynbristow]

Opening up Liverpool Central-Ormskirk-Preston is part of the Merseyside 30 year plan, but it would be unlikely that this line ever saw Anglo-Scottish services again.

30+year plan. I don't think it will actually happen quickly given there are now other priorities :/ which is sad really as it would be good for growth

 

[frodshamfella]

Hi

Thanks for all the info. I think Liverpool really should be linked with Scotland ( and for that matter Cardiff), particularly as air links to these areas are poor. Incidentally, I think when looking at Liverpool's urban population, you must include Birkenhead area which is another 325,265.

 

[Green Lane]

Hi

Thanks for all the info. I think Liverpool really should be linked with Scotland ( and for that matter Cardiff), particularly as air links to these areas are poor. Incidentally, I think when looking at Liverpool's urban population, you must include Birkenhead area which is another 325,265.

Indeed I was going to suggest this too. Because of the River Mersey, the situation is that the "catchment area" of Lime Street station is not adequately represented by the Liverpool Urban area alone.

People in Wirral will also typically use Lime Street, thanks to the fast and frequent Merseyrail connections (or even the regular bus connections for that matter). Yes we have Chester and the Borderlands Line as southbound routes out of the Wirral. But certainly we will use Lime Street as our first choice when going north or east in any case.

I suggest there may also be some other areas on the Liverpool side also using Lime Street but not accounted for within the urban area itself.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Opening up Liverpool Central-Ormskirk-Preston is part of the Merseyside 30 year plan, but it would be unlikely that this line ever saw Anglo-Scottish services again.

30+year plan. I don't think it will actually happen quickly given there are now other priorities :/ which is sad really as it would be good for growth

Dual voltage unit - because presumably Preston-Omskirk would be 25KV AC OHLE - If there was say a daily in the summer Liverpool-Ormskirk-Windermere It would go pants up and pants down at Ormskirk - but really open a whole load of journey opportunities. Now add in Southport etc - wow. No harm wishing.

 

[Class377/5]

Just point out splitting services does add performance risk and extend journey times. Part of the reason for getting rid of many of the splitting services at Southern and Southeastern is to improve reliability and journey times.

 

[LDECRexile]

Just back from a Grand Half Day Out.

1. Wavertree: sudden progress-

1.1 some of the 1960 masts in the vicinity of Stephenson Way bridge have now been demolished, leaving recent ones standing proud.

1.2 there are now three wires under Stephenson Way bridge, two copper and one of grey metal. Two of the wires go along the twin Chat Moss lines, but the third is a bit of a puzzler, as it appears to travel along the more northerly of the twin tracks which run, from the west: Up Chat Moss, left (north) at Bootle Branch Junction (as if heading off towards the docks) then past the eastern exit from Tuebrook Sidings, along the retaining wall where a bridge used to cross, under Stephenson Way bridge then back to Up Chat Moss at Waterloo Branch Junction. In effect this seems to have the makings of electrifying an Up Loop, with passive provision for electrifying to the docks. The view is difficult and often obscured (more observations from trains needed....), but I couldn't see any wires leading into or from Tuebrook Sidings, nor anything to attach wires to into Picko No. 1 Tunnel. The mystery to me is the fourth track, which runs in the opposite direction to the "Up Loop" described above. I couldn't see any masts or arms suitable to hang wires above it.

I must stress that the layout is both complex and obscured, with very limited vantage points, even with my trusty step-stool. Furthermore, I'm no expert. I may be misinterpreting all sorts.

2. Wavertree Road: I made my first foray to the long bridge wich crosses all lines east of Edge Hill station on a long diagonal. In terms of electrification it showed:

2.1 very little in respect of the Chat Moss route, as the 1960 Wire Forest obscures virtually everything new,

but

2.2 strongly suggests that there are no plans to wire Tuebrook Sidings at this time. A GBRf train was parked in the sidings facing east, as has been the case every time I've been to Stephenson Way. The back of the train is plainly visible from Wavertree Road bridge. Whilst it is possible to assume wiring at the eastern end among the maze of metal, there is no question that there are no scrapes, bases, masts or wires at the western end. I'd bet my pension that Tuebrook Sidings aren't being wired.

3. Looking west from the Wavertree Road bridge gives a good view over Balfour Beatty's electrification sidings. There is still quite a lot of metalwork on show, but not stacked high as has been the case in the past.

4. Class 319: didn't run today.

5. Carr Mill Viaduct: all systems go!

5.1 Piers 1 and 4 (from the north) have been scaffolded for a while, ready to have bases located on the long-redundant eastern halves of the piers, which once carried third and fouth tracks. Pier 1 now has substantial shuttering in place to receive 18 cu metres of concrete by pump. Holes have been drilled down into the existing pier and metal secured therein and attached to the reinfocing cage inside the shuttering. The whole lot will be concreted, making a secure base held in place by steel and gravity. Bolts will protrude from the concrete to which TTCs will be attached.

5.2 When Pier 1 has cured sufficiently the shuttering will be removed and the processs will be repeated on Pier 4.

6. Sankey Viaduct: I was told that the team working on Carr Mill have been stood down from Sankey Viaduct because the Chat Moss line cannot be closed overnight for two weeks to allow rolling stock to be exchanged between the western and eastern sides of the country over several nights.

It may be Saturday before I get chance to update photos and spreadsheet.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Just back from a Grand Half Day Out.

1. Wavertree: sudden progress-

5. Carr Mill Viaduct: all systems go!

It may be Saturday before I get chance to update photos and spreadsheet.

Wonderful news

 

[LDECRexile]

A cancelled appointment has given me the chance to wang today's photos on here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/sets/72157648494725811/

I have bitten the bullet and presented them most recent first.

Gulp.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

A cancelled appointment has given me the chance to wang today's photos on here:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/sets/72157648494725811/
I have bitten the bullet and presented them most recent first.

They look fine. Great pics.
Nice to see the old sawn-off masts in the cess. Makes the view a lot tidier.
I see there's a TTC on the southern platform at St Helens Jn (east end).
I wonder why they dug a big hole on the northern platform and didn't use it!