Manchester - Liverpool Electrification

[LDECRexile]

Working on today's photos I realise that since Monday a new portal has gone up east of Roby as well as west.

It gets betterer and betterer.

 

[Francis]

The construction work is for the 101 Embankment office block development, on the site of the old Exchange station. See http://www.askdevelopments.com/projects/details/10792

Went past the old site of Manchester Exchange yesterday. They seem to have demolished half of Greengate Arches - used to be a bus station under there, one of the most miserable imaginable.

It looks as if Network Rail have commandeered the car park which was on the Exchange site for their own staff car park and works yard during the electrification and no doubt the new Ordsall curve round to Castlefields.

Platform 9 (if I remember correctly) at the old Victoria (now No 3) used to run through to Exchange and was reputedly the longest platform in the world at one time. It has now been decisively breached for ever. Surprised nobody got it listed building status!

 

[STANDISH]

Hi Francis,

For the record it was Platform 11 and 11 Middle at Victoria, plus Platform 3 at Exchange ,which formed the long platform 2194ft. According to Trains Annual 1963. A good Christmas present at 10/6 or 53p.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Hi Francis,

For the record it was Platform 11 and 11 Middle at Victoria, plus Platform 3 at Exchange ,which formed the long platform 2194ft. According to Trains Annual 1963. A good Christmas present at 10/6 or 53p.

Was it really the longest in the world, or was it just within Europe?

 

[snowball]

I think it was the second longest in the world. The longest was (probably still is) in India.

 

[LDECRexile]

I've added 33 photos from today's outing here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/sets/72157648494725811/

...newest first

 

[Geeves]

I think I walked past you while you were taking your photos of Vic east end, just up there for nosey along with you and a few others it would seem! Should of stopped and said hello... Maybe next time!

Great work by the way!

 

[LDECRexile]

I think I walked past you while you were taking your photos of Vic east end, just up there for nosey along with you and a few others it would seem! Should of stopped and said hello... Maybe next time!

Great work by the way!

I'd have enjoyed meeting you. Thanks for the kind remark.

 

[ianhr]

I think it was the second longest in the world. The longest was (probably still is) in India.

I think the State Street subway in Chicago had/maybe still has a more or less continuous platform extending through several stations with trains making stops 2 or 3 times along its length. I'm not sure of its total length.

 

[LDECRexile]

Updated 'Where we're up to' spreadsheet below.

 

[swt_passenger]

I've added 33 photos from today's outing here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/sets/72157648494725811/

...newest first

Looking at the attachment points on the roof trusses at Victoria, particularly the short spacing along the track; is it at all possible they'll be using a rigid conductor?

 

[snowball]

Looking at the attachment points on the roof trusses at Victoria, particularly the short spacing along the track; is it at all possible they'll be using a rigid conductor?

That seems highly plausible. I'd been trying to make sense of the pictures that are currently second, third and fourth in LDEC's album. One of the mysteries is to work out which bits will be live and which earthed in the absence of standard-shaped insulators. The other was the small rectangular pieces of steel that are longitudinal, parallel to the tracks, but now you mention it they could well be attachment points for copper bars or whatever that will take the place of the usual catenary.

 

[LDECRexile]

That seems highly plausible. I'd been trying to make sense of the pictures that are currently second, third and fourth in LDEC's album. One of the mysteries is to work out which bits will be live and which earthed in the absence of standard-shaped insulators. The other was the small rectangular pieces of steel that are longitudinal, parallel to the tracks, but now you mention it they could well be attachment points for copper bars or whatever that will take the place of the usual catenary.

I couldn't make it out either. A rigid conductor does indeed seem a good bet.

For the record, I couldn't think of another angle to show the stuff any better, all the fittings looked the same and all seemed uninsulated and completely unlike anything else I've seen on Phase 2 (or anywhere else.) An unconventional solution to an unconventional problem.

I've created an additional, temporary album of the photos I didn't use in case any shot gives any more clues. I'll chuck it away in ten days time unless anyone wants any particular photo keeping open.

The temp album is here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/sets/72157649628042292/

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I've added 33 photos from today's outing here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/sets/72157648494725811/

...newest first

Updated 'Where we're up to' spreadsheet below.

Once again wonderful work and thanks. Looking forward to doing an outing myself between xmas and New Year- Flight arrives in Manchester from the USA Saturday morning December 20th.

 

[LDECRexile]

Once again wonderful work and thanks. Looking forward to doing an outing myself between xmas and New Year- Flight arrives in Manchester from the USA Saturday morning December 20th.

Thank you for your kind support. In theory you ought to be able to watch if not travel on an electric train on 29th Dec; long odds against though.

 

[snowball]

I'd say that each of the thick cylindrical brown things, with conical ends, is an insulator - not to insulate one end from the other, as with conventional insulators, but to insulate its middle from its outside. Each one has an earthed structural member running down its axis, and some of them will have live components strapped to their outsides.

Pictures were posted on this forum and on Skyscrapercity showing the ceiling trusses before the electrification works started - is anyone please able to find such pictures easily? It would be interesting to compare them with the current pictures that LDEC has kindly posted.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Thank you for your kind support. In theory you ought to be able to watch if not travel on an electric train on 29th Dec; long odds against though.

Well of course I can cheat because I return MAN-ATL-DAY January 3rd. So I could get a 350/4 from Preston- Manchester airport to catch the plane but I will probably go for safety and get a lift to the airport.

 

[LDECRexile]

Some food for thought in the scan attached below.

 

[edwin_m]

I'd say that each of the thick cylindrical brown things, with conical ends, is an insulator - not to insulate one end from the other, as with conventional insulators, but to insulate its middle from its outside. Each one has an earthed structural member running down its axis, and some of them will have live components strapped to their outsides.

I thought that when I first looked at it, but I don't think so now. Looking at the linked photos there are structural elements further back that are identical to the ones with the brackets, but with no brackets. If the structural members with the brackets were insulating replacements then I would expect some difference of shape or colour, and probably also some better integration of the design rather than just bolting the brackets to it! If the brackets are live they are also too close to other parts of the structure to provide an acceptable insulation at 25kV when wet - remember insulators are corrugated to increase the current path.

While not identical, the brackets look as if they are intended to support something like the first photo on the link below. Can anyone confirm whether they are above the centre of the track? With this arrangement they would be off-centre to allow the insulator to be mounted laterally.

http://www.railway-technology.com/contractors/electrification/furrer_frey/furrer_frey1.html

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Some food for thought in the scan attached below.

It would be nice if NR came out with the practical reasons for the longer term delays.
I have always thought that the main problem NR has is one of parallelism - how to get multiple electrification schemes proceeding simultaneously.
You need a lot of resources and expert project management for that.
The NW scheme is ticking along, a bit late but it will get there.
The GW scheme is more worrying because they don't seem close to the required run rate yet.
EGIP seems to be on track, but it's early days.
But they seem not to be able to kick off TP electrification or any of the other later schemes.
Is it because they have to wait for resources from the earlier projects (eg TP following on from NW, and MML following on from GW?)

Four regional electrification framework agreements were signed about a year ago, but no contracts have been let against them yet.
All the current schemes are being run by the contractors they picked earlier.

Cost is another killer. Another possibility is that project progress can be recovered, but the costs go through the roof.
That in itself would delay later schemes as NR tries to stay within its CP5 spending limits.
Worrying!

 

[DJH1971]

I may have asked this before, but are penalty clauses likely to be coming into play now?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I may have asked this before, but are penalty clauses likely to be coming into play now?

How would we know? It would depend on how the work was contracted (fixed price or cost plus etc).
It's probably a fair bet that Christmas bonuses might be a bit short this year!
You can't blame BB for NR planning or design failures.
Balfour Beatty as a corporation is a very sick animal just now (profit warnings, sell offs etc), but I can't work out if their rail business is in trouble or not.
Their Chairman, Steve Marshall, was the last boss of Railtrack before it went under.

 

[Class 170101]

Unfortunately one cannot read the whole article without paying for it however the snippet below was available for free
http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/business/Industry/article1492424.ece

GEORGE OSBORNE’S flag- ship plan to boost rail links between northern cities is likely to be shunted back by up to three years because of ballooning costs and delays to Network Rail’s electrification programme.

The state-owned company, which maintains and upgrades the network, admits the cost of improving key stretches of track to run electric trains instead of diesels has risen far above initial estimates.

The cost of electrifying the Great Western line from London to Swansea has swollen from £1bn to nearly £1.7bn, while the Midland main line between Bedford and Sheffield will cost £1.3bn rather than £650m.

Several senior industry sources said delays and funding pressures were likely to push the electrification of the Trans-Pennine route between Leeds and Liverpool to 2021.

 

[LDECRexile]

Unfortunately one cannot read the whole article without paying for it however the snippet below was available for free
http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/business/Industry/article1492424.ece

I don't understand. The scan covers the whole article.

I've had an unexpected day out today. I did a car journey covering hotspots from Roby to Earlestown.

The significant news is that since Friday the eighth and final bite has been taken out of Sankey Viaduct's parapet and the seventh concrete base has been put in position.

I'll publish photos showing more of Friday's findings this evening or tomorrow.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Can anyone confirm whether they are above the centre of the track? With this arrangement they would be off-centre to allow the insulator to be mounted laterally.

http://www.railway-technology.com/contractors/electrification/furrer_frey/furrer_frey1.html

They appear to be above the centre of the 6 foot between the tracks. Definitely not directly above either track and definitely all pairs in line.

Couldn't they simply be some sort of bracket to which the sort of things which look like drumsticks are attached? These are common on the project under bridges, eg Skew Bridge Rainhill, Bridge Road bridge Roby and Junction Lane bridge Earlestown. Please see, for example, my photos 1682, 1648 and 1642.

 

[edwin_m]

They appear to be above the centre of the 6 foot between the tracks. Definitely not directly above either track and definitely all pairs in line.

Couldn't they simply be some sort of bracket to which the sort of things which look like drumsticks are attached? These are common on the project under bridges, eg Skew Bridge Rainhill, Bridge Road bridge Roby and Junction Lane bridge Earlestown. Please see, for example, my photos 1682, 1648 and 1642.

Could well be, and thanks for the very comprehensive coverage by the way! The "drumsticks" are another sort of insulator, which have to be longer than the normal sort because they don't have the "corrugations" I referred to above. Those photos show use under metallic bridges so they should also be OK under the metallic roof structure at Victoria. While it's not possible to be certain, the angle iron mountings in those photos look similar to the ones at Victoria.

When they remodelled Victoria in the 1990s I'm sure they would have left room for electrification using techniques which were available at the time. The "drumsticks" or something similar was around then but the solid bar wasn't, with the possible exception of Trowse swing bridge.

 

[snowball]

Unfortunately one cannot read the whole article without paying for it

I could, using LDEC's photo, as he comments at the beginning of #3174.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

They appear to be above the centre of the 6 foot between the tracks. Definitely not directly above either track and definitely all pairs in line.

Couldn't they simply be some sort of bracket to which the sort of things which look like drumsticks are attached? These are common on the project under bridges, eg Skew Bridge Rainhill, Bridge Road bridge Roby and Junction Lane bridge Earlestown. Please see, for example, my photos 1682, 1648 and 1642.

If they're midway between the tracks then that's probably what they are. Ignore my previous witterings.

Maybe the brown cylinders are nothing to do with the electrification and were part of the roof lattice already.

 

[LDECRexile]

I've added 32 photos from today's jaunt here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/sets/72157648494725811/

Newest first.

 

[8A Rail]

I've added 32 photos from today's jaunt here:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/sets/72157648494725811/
Newest first.

A shame you had not contacted me before you left, as I am only a short walk from Whiston Station and we could of met even for a few minutes, in fact may have invited you for a cup of tea/coffee.

 

[LDECRexile]

A shame you had not contacted me before you left, as I am only a short walk from Whiston Station and we could of met even for a few minutes, in fact may have invited you for a cup of tea/coffee.

Drat, drat and double drat! What a chance I've missed. Next time I definitely will. Kind regards, Dave
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It would be nice if NR came out with the practical reasons for the longer term delays.
I have always thought that the main problem NR has is one of parallelism - how to get multiple electrification schemes proceeding simultaneously.
You need a lot of resources and expert project management for that.
The NW scheme is ticking along, a bit late but it will get there.
The GW scheme is more worrying because they don't seem close to the required run rate yet.
EGIP seems to be on track, but it's early days.
But they seem not to be able to kick off TP electrification or any of the other later schemes.
Is it because they have to wait for resources from the earlier projects (eg TP following on from NW, and MML following on from GW?)

Four regional electrification framework agreements were signed about a year ago, but no contracts have been let against them yet.
All the current schemes are being run by the contractors they picked earlier.

Cost is another killer. Another possibility is that project progress can be recovered, but the costs go through the roof.
That in itself would delay later schemes as NR tries to stay within its CP5 spending limits.
Worrying!

Alas, I agree with everything you say. Worrying indeed.

Is there anything in Mr Carne's claim that cost inflation (notoriously GW by 70% and MML to double?!) is down to scoping changes?

 

[AM9]

Could well be, and thanks for the very comprehensive coverage by the way! The "drumsticks" are another sort of insulator, which have to be longer than the normal sort because they don't have the "corrugations" I referred to above. Those photos show use under metallic bridges so they should also be OK under the metallic roof structure at Victoria. While it's not possible to be certain, the angle iron mountings in those photos look similar to the ones at Victoria.

When they remodelled Victoria in the 1990s I'm sure they would have left room for electrification using techniques which were available at the time. The "drumsticks" or something similar was around then but the solid bar wasn't, with the possible exception of Trowse swing bridge.

I think the 'drumsticks being described here are glass fibre insulated stays. If so there are plenty on the Thameslink Line where supports are under cover and not subject to driving rain. I remember spending many minutes waiting on the old Kings Cross Thameslink platforms looking at those under the footbridge between the platforms. It's not as sad as it sounds, there really wasn't much of interest to look at whilst waiting in that pit!
The rigid bar conductor is said to be expensive so would only be used either where structural clearance alterations were deemed too expensive or where long-term reliability and continuity was more important such as with Crossrail tunnels.