Manchester - Liverpool Electrification

[LDECRexile]

Two more bigguns up at Vic.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a260/Geeves8612/IMG_20150105_114414356_zps1e9ce52d.jpg

Lil diragram for you, this is the same as they give us to learn at work

http://irolearn.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/image-1-from-page-227.png

Bigguns up = fab

Diagram is equally fab, thank you.

While I've got you, I have been told off this site that Portal is the term for the mouth of a tunnel (which I accept and agree with, by the way) and what I and others have been calling 'portals' in this forum, eg the arched metal structures on Sankey Viaduct which will eventually support electricity wires, are correctly called 'masts'. is my use of portal wrong, unusual, misleading or fattening?

Dave

 

[deltic08]

Bigguns up = fab

Diagram is equally fab, thank you.

While I've got you, I have been told off this site that Portal is the term for the mouth of a tunnel (which I accept and agree with, by the way) and what I and others have been calling 'portals' in this forum, eg the arched metal structures on Sankey Viaduct which will eventually support electricity wires, are correctly called 'masts'. is my use of portal wrong, unusual, misleading or fattening?

Dave

I have always regarded masts as the uprights and the cross metalwork as something different. All together could be classed as a portal structure but again there will be someone who will correct this. Portal is derived from latin porta an opening.

 

[Geeves]

I like portal but i believe they still refer to them as gantries in the business, even if most of them are here are just single beams.

Not too sure! Horizontal stanchion?!?!

Stick with portal.

 

[swt_passenger]

I like portal but i believe they still refer to them as gantries in the business, even if most of them are here are just single beams.

Not too sure! Horizontal stanchion?!?!

Stick with portal.

Mr Ellis' Railway Engineering Encyclopaedia gives 2 meanings for 'portal', one being the "extreme end of a tunnel" and the other being:

"A goal post shaped structure supporting the OLE, see Portal Structure"

Under the entry "Portal Structure" there is a diagram showing what everyone quite reasonably calls a portal. A pair of uprights, connected by a crossbar, with various dangly bits...

 

[LDECRexile]

I like portal but i believe they still refer to them as gantries in the business, even if most of them are here are just single beams.

Not too sure! Horizontal stanchion?!?!

Stick with portal.

Great,thanks.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Mr Ellis' Railway Engineering Encyclopaedia gives 2 meanings for 'portal', one being the "extreme end of a tunnel" and the other being:

"A goal post shaped structure supporting the OLE, see Portal Structure"

Under the entry "Portal Structure" there is a diagram showing what everyone quite reasonably calls a portal. A pair of uprights, connected by a crossbar, with various dangly bits...

Fab, just what I wanted. Thank you.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I've added thirty photos from our 5th Jan trip here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/sets/72157648494725811/

I didn't say earlier (because I'd forgotten to ask Paul if it would be alright for me to mention his name) that Paul Gaskell came out with me and we had a high old time.

As a lifelong St Helens man Paul's knowledge of the nooks and crannies of that fair town is second to none.

Paul's photos to follow in due course.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Paul's photos to follow in due course.

Nice to see they are still pecking at the Wigan line.
Is the rogue mast south of the East Lancs up yet?
Actually it's a pair, one on each side, down the embankment.
They must be rusting by now, the length of time they have been there!
Then they could wire the whole gap from St Helens C to Carr Mill.

(I'm in GW territory this week).

 

[deltic08]

I like portal but i believe they still refer to them as gantries in the business, even if most of them are here are just single beams.

Not too sure! Horizontal stanchion?!?!

Stick with portal.

Yes gantry is the word I was searching for for cross metalwork. Stanchion is the other word I would use for the upright.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Mr Ellis' Railway Engineering Encyclopaedia gives 2 meanings for 'portal', one being the "extreme end of a tunnel" and the other being:

"A goal post shaped structure supporting the OLE, see Portal Structure"

Under the entry "Portal Structure" there is a diagram showing what everyone quite reasonably calls a portal. A pair of uprights, connected by a crossbar, with various dangly bits...

Looks as if we have all agreed on portal. At least we know what we mean.

Does Mr Ellis have an entry for Thundering Great Portal thingy? Maybe LDECR should submit for inclusion.

 

[LDECRexile]

Nice to see they are still pecking at the Wigan line.
Is the rogue mast south of the East Lancs up yet?
Actually it's a pair, one on each side, down the embankment.
They must be rusting by now, the length of time they have been there!
Then they could wire the whole gap from St Helens C to Carr Mill.

(I'm in GW territory this week).

Couldn't see the rogue S of the East Lancs from where we were yesterday, would need to do the trip by train to be sure either way.

When Graham and I did the stretch after we left you on 29th Dec we didn't see it (them) which could be that they were up or that we missed them.

Have fun in foreign parts.

Dave
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

They certainly stick out a mile.

I'll take that as a "no".

To go back to your earlier demand, please see Photo 2035 posted last night and the earlier photos of the same structure referred to in 2035's caption.

 

[po8crg]

I completely accept that 319s, with ancient gubbins and no end gangways, are non-starters for SDO, I was trying to establish whether it would be possible, with the right stock, to take this approach, given that it was in everyday use Down South.

Yes, but the likely replacement stock would be 3-car units rather than 4-car. Many more stations can take a six-car train without platform extension. 3-car gangwayed stock with SDO would be ideal for the Northern routes that are getting 319s.

 

[Dixie]

Thank you for answering my questions, i work on the freight side, last time i was in the cab on this route in daylight was a few months back. Next time i am ill get some photos or footage.
Is it true some posts have been put up in the path of the 4th line at Huyton and will be removed later?
And is there any updates on the land aquisition?
Cheers
Mike

In photo 2036 it certainly does appear to be the case that the first and third masts from the left appear to be in the path of the to be extended fourth line.

 

[snowball]

And is there any updates on the land aquisition?

The order was made last summer, so NR has the legal powers:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/network-rail-huyton-order-decision-letter

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2014/2027/article/17/made

The timescale for implementing it seems relaxed.

Edit: the deposited plan is here:

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...6cmeREr0IdKmqaGULasMgUw&bvm=bv.82001339,d.d24

Further edit: there are some more plans here:

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...o4sxASqx-QFRZ7LPNLM7U3g&bvm=bv.82001339,d.ZWU

Don't know whether they're current.

 

[ironstone11]

Anything more than the basic up/down/across bits I would say.
I'm no expert but I think registration arms are the final bits of metal that actually connect to the contact wire, usually connected to a horizontal arm by an elbow affair.
They keep the wire "in registration", ie the right height/stagger above the tracks, and they alternate right and left to maintain tension.

Just to add to what LNW-GW Joint says, the registration arms are free to move in the vertical direction, with the contact wire height being determined by the droppers from the catenary above.

The registration arms are usually kept in tension by the left right zig-zag of the contact wire. However, the main reason for the zig-zag is to prevent a groove being worn in the pantograph. Without zig-zag the pantograph would be wrecked very quickly, possibly de-wired and the catenary brought down.

Looking at LDECRexile's excellent pictures it looks as though the registration arms are not fitted to the 'dangly bits' until the contact wire is strung. They are quite a light-weight low air resistance component which could easily be damaged.

 

[steverailer]

Just to add to what LNW-GW Joint says, the registration arms are free to move in the vertical direction, with the contact wire height being determined by the droppers from the catenary above.

The registration arms are usually kept in tension by the left right zig-zag of the contact wire. However, the main reason for the zig-zag is to prevent a groove being worn in the pantograph. Without zig-zag the pantograph would be wrecked very quickly, possibly de-wired and the catenary brought down.

Looking at LDECRexile's excellent pictures it looks as though the registration arms are not fitted to the 'dangly bits' until the contact wire is strung. They are quite a light-weight low air resistance component which could easily be damaged.

The 'dangly bits' are called drop arms, different lengths are used depending on the system height (distance between catenary and contact wires) at that location. The registration arms are connected after the contact wire has been run, as there is nothing to hold them in place before.

 

[Bevan Price]

Yes, but the likely replacement stock would be 3-car units rather than 4-car. Many more stations can take a six-car train without platform extension. 3-car gangwayed stock with SDO would be ideal for the Northern routes that are getting 319s.

Yes - but we all know that they would then put 3 car emus on services where 4 cars can be used (and are needed). When Northern (or successor) does eventually get new trains, they are not likely to get two different types - for ease of diagramming, etc., they will just choose a single design & configuration.

 

[nw-sparks]

Nice to see they are still pecking at the Wigan line.
Is the rogue mast south of the East Lancs up yet?
Actually it's a pair, one on each side, down the embankment.
They must be rusting by now, the length of time they have been there!
Then they could wire the whole gap from St Helens C to Carr Mill.

(I'm in GW territory this week).

Short notice closure of Huyton - Wigan on Sunday 18th, so hopefully some decent progress then.

Phil

 

[martynbristow]

The Northern mods include unplating the individual door controls at each door on the 319's that the previous user plated up, whether that makes it possible or not I don't know but in theory at a minimum the guard should at least be able to lock out the rearmost door. 350's when paired at Oxford Road lock the doors on the whole rear unit but still let people ride in it, they just do a VA telling people to get off they need to go to the front train.

The 350's locking up the rear unit is down to the Siemens SDO implementation I was advised at least with the SWT stock, although they are now switching to ASDO. I would assume its the same in the 350's as thats the default. It doesn't lock the rear unit out just doesn't open the doors.
More info in http://w3.siemens.com/topics/global...ts/PDF/Siemens-Rail-Systems-UK-Supplement.pdf

 

[LDECRexile]

I'm delighted to say that Paul Gaskell has submitted 9 photos for publication from our trip together on Monday.

I have added them to Paul's album here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/sets/72157649792560381/

and woven them into the combined album here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/sets/72157648494725811/

I'm also delighted that Dixie Dean has stepped forward with two fine photos for publication, which I will add tomorrow.

Anyone else feel ready and willing to chip in their two penn'orth?

Dave

 

[PDG1949]

Nice to see they are still pecking at the Wigan line.
Is the rogue mast south of the East Lancs up yet?
Actually it's a pair, one on each side, down the embankment.
They must be rusting by now, the length of time they have been there!
Then they could wire the whole gap from St Helens C to Carr Mill.

(I'm in GW territory this week).

Hi,

Is there any chance you could give me a more definitive location for these missing masts, please and I'll go and have a look. Are they between the south end of Carr Mill Viaduct and the East Lancs (A580) bridge, or further along towards St. Helens Central ? I am well aware there was a spat between some Finchley Drive residents and NR about masts earlier in 2014 and I'm not too sure what the current status of that is. This location is just to the west of the Woodlands Rd. bridge and the start of the spoil heaps (aka 'The Burgies') ?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Hi there.
It's a few hundred yards south of the East Lancs, alongside a lake/pond (houses on the west side). Burgy Pond it says on the Google map.
You can just glimpse them from a train but they are down the embankment a bit.
Good luck!

 

[tomneedham85]

Hi everyone,

If anyone is interested in the foundation work to sankey viaduct I have a document that myself and the project engineer for the viaduct have compiled. The document contains pictures and discriptions of the various stages during the construction. To receive the file just give me your email address. Thanks

 

[LDECRexile]

I'm delighted to be able to publish two interesting photos kindly submitted by Dixie Dean.

As with other people who have sent me photos I have created an album - Dixie's Pics - here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/16034537909/in/set-72157649752701067

and woven them into the overall album here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/sets/72157648494725811/

I have put them as 2035b and 2035b next to 2036, a recent addition from the other end of the telescope, so to speak.

Welcome aboard Dixie.

 

[DJH1971]

Hi everyone,

If anyone is interested in the foundation work to sankey viaduct I have a document that myself and the project engineer for the viaduct have compiled. The document contains pictures and discriptions of the various stages during the construction. To receive the file just give me your email address. Thanks

Wonder when we will see the final portal up?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
On the NW-Sparks website, it is reporting that the Huyton to Wigan line will be closed on for three Sundays, these being 18th January, 25th January and 1st February.

Looks like panic could be setting in now.

 

[tomneedham85]

Wonder when we will see the final portal up?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
On the NW-Sparks website, it is reporting that the Huyton to Wigan line will be closed on for three Sundays, these being 18th January, 25th January and 1st February.

Looks like panic could be setting in now.

Last portal should be up on sankey by 14th January

 

[iandavid59]

More Sunday Rail Replacement between Huyton and Wigan North Western for 4 Sundays from 18th January 15.

 

[Class 170101]

Short notice closure of Huyton - Wigan on Sunday 18th, so hopefully some decent progress then.

Phil

Should add that trains are diverted at Huyton via Wigan North Western (and calling there) to reach Preston.

 

[LDECRexile]

Wonder when we will see the final portal up?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
On the NW-Sparks website, it is reporting that the Huyton to Wigan line will be closed on for three Sundays, these being 18th January, 25th January and 1st February.

Looks like panic could be setting in now.

Please tell us what evidence you have that the people who have to deal with this problem are panicking.

 

[DJH1971]

Please tell us what evidence you have that the people who have to deal with this problem are panicking.

These Sunday blockades did not feature in the paper timetables.

 

[LDECRexile]

I am delighted that Peter Conroy has submitted a photo he took from Wavertree Road bridge on Boxing Day 2013 which almost exactly matches a previously unpublished one of mine taken almost exactly a year later on 20th Dec 2014.

At first glance my impression was "Uh? they look the same". Closer examination reveals umpteen changes.

I have created an album for Peter's pictures (he tells me there's more to come in due course) in which I've put the matching Then and Now pair. It can be accessed here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/16040415567/in/set-72157649772527390/

I have also inserted them in the overall composite album as 1905a, 1905b and, unusually, have put a second copy of the older picture in the correct time sequence as 0023. They can be accessed here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/sets/72157648494725811/

Welcome aboard Peter.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Fascinating photos.
Another difference is the vague grey building at the far end of Tuebrook Sidings in the 2014 picture.
That holds the power supplies for the western end of the route, and took practically the whole year to build.

 

[LDECRexile]

Fascinating photos.
Another difference is the vague grey building at the far end of Tuebrook Sidings in the 2014 picture.
That holds the power supplies for the western end of the route, and took practically the whole year to build.

The current edition of RAIL includes an admirably clear article on the Midland Mainline electrification project (RAIL 765 pp54-7.) The article includes the statement that "...the provision of electric power to the railway can account for as much as one quarter of all electrification costs..." (p56, leftmost column.)

This supports comments you have made in the past.

The article gives a clear feel for the complex nature of projects such as 'ours' with ramifications often far beyond the obvious.