Manchester - Liverpool Electrification

[Dixie]

You may be interested to know that the implementation of phase 2 was covered in some detail in the German railway press last month.

 

[WatcherZero]

Was an engineer pushing a flat trolley at the place on the Chat Moss line that's supposed to get a backup switching facility. First sign of activity ive seen there, also someone was walking along the line visually inspecting the OHLE.

 

[mcnw35282]

Has the 4th track through Huyton been delayed?

 

[8A Rail]

Has the 4th track through Huyton been delayed?

No as far as I am aware - it was originally to be fully completed (crossovers, realignment of Huyton Junction and overhead wires) by sometime next year (2016) but may of been put back to sometime in 2017. I'm sure one or two members will confirm latest completion by date in due course.

 

[Soyyo]

Has the 4th track through Huyton been delayed?

I was wondering the same. I passed along there this afternoon and saw a pile of concrete sleepers trackside the Liverpool side of Roby, where the fourth track currently ends and needs connecting. Was hoping this might be the start of them linking it up.

 

[snowball]

No as far as I am aware - it was originally to be fully completed (crossovers, realignment of Huyton Junction and overhead wires) by sometime next year (2016) but may of been put back to sometime in 2017. I'm sure one or two members will confirm latest completion by date in due course.

There has been previous discussion on here of differing dates. Announcements connected with the TWAO application said 2017, but the CP5 Enhancements Delivery Plan says Feb 2016.

Not having seen the latest RAIL magazine yet, I'm still wondering what it says on the subject to prompt LDECR's remark:

5. Roby Jct-Huyton Jct 4th track. (Surely claims re this in RAIL 776 p21 are tripe?)

 

[Billyblue]

There has been previous discussion on here of differing dates. Announcements connected with the TWAO application said 2017, but the CP5 Enhancements Delivery Plan says Feb 2016.

Not having seen the latest RAIL magazine yet, I'm still wondering what it says on the subject to prompt LDECR's remark:

The Northern Hub brochure 'Improving the railway around Huyton and Roby,' Autumn 2013, gave the proposed TWAO works completion date as winter 2017

 

[childwallblues]

Now that the Ticket Gates have been installed and are working at Manchester Victoria I wonder whether there has been an increase in Ticket Income for the trains that stop and start at Victoria?

There was a big queue at MCV at 0730 yesterday morning for tickets.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

There has been previous discussion on here of differing dates. Announcements connected with the TWAO application said 2017, but the CP5 Enhancements Delivery Plan says Feb 2016.
Not having seen the latest RAIL magazine yet, I'm still wondering what it says on the subject to prompt LDECR's remark:

I'd expect all of the TP route enhancements to be keyed into whatever is decided about the core section (currently delayed), and the Castlefield corridor work (also delayed by the Ordsall Lane legal challenge).
There's no need for work at Huyton in advance of that if train frequencies are not being improved.
The new franchise specs don't call for more trains via Huyton, except possibly an extra TP to Preston/Scotland.
Not to mention "HS3".
Having a mile of the 4th track down and new platforms already built might turn out to be a bit of an embarrassment...
It probably all turns on whether contracts have already been let or not.

 

[Soyyo]

There's no need for work at Huyton in advance of that if train frequencies are not being improved.

The government has said they want a Northern Powerhouse and faster, more reliable trains are one of the keys to this. They introduced the Liverpool to Newcastle service as part of this push.

I think the current need for this extra track is there, to improve reliability of existing services. Surely, the fourth track will help keep the fast services on time? There are three or four stoppers an hour and they frequently delay the faster trains.

When the xx00 stopper leaves late, the xx12 catches up very quickly.

e.g. the other day the 1600 Wigan left at 1609. Don't know why (or even if it is possible) but it wasn't passed at Edge Hill, so the 1612 fast Newcastle was slowed to a snail's pace till after Huyton.

By then it was running about 13 minutes late. This caused it to be further delayed when an Arriva Wales got in front of it west of Newton-le-Willows.

If we had had the four tracking between west of Roby and Huyton, the fast train doesn't get held up as long, and has more chance of getting into its proper path further along?

This is working well in the other direction. I've been on several fast trains where they've passed stoppers between Huyton and Roby. In the past these expresses would have had to crawl all the way to Lime Street.

 

[edwin_m]

I wonder if that was the most egg-citing thing to happen this year! :roll:

Is that what they mean by "Rooster Transformer"?

 

[mcnw35282]

Not having seen the latest RAIL magazine yet, I'm still wondering what it says on the subject to prompt LDECR's remark

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Can anyone link to the story? I've tried doing a search but can't find anything.

 

[tom1649]

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Can anyone link to the story? I've tried doing a search but can't find anything.

It says that the four tracking between Broad Green and Huyton is nearly complete.

Yet again Rail have got the electrification map on page 21 wrong. It incorrectly shows the line between Manchester and Wigan via Atherton as being electrified.

 

[snowball]

Yet again Rail have got the electrification map on page 21 wrong. It incorrectly shows the line between Manchester and Wigan via Atherton as being electrified.

Haven't seen the new version but if that detail is the same as in the previous one it could, as discussed upthread, be meant as a grossly exaggerated representation of the Parkside-Golborne link.

 

[tom1649]

Haven't seen the new version but if that detail is the same as in the previous one it could, as discussed upthread, be meant as a grossly exaggerated representation of the Parkside-Golborne link.

The last map I saw in the previous edition covered the whole of the UK. That one had the Chase Line electrification missing and the Midland Main Line marked as an "other route under study". This one just covers the North West.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It says that the four tracking between Broad Green and Huyton is nearly complete.
Yet again Rail have got the electrification map on page 21 wrong. It incorrectly shows the line between Manchester and Wigan via Atherton as being electrified.

Yes, the panel on Rail 776 p21 on Huyton 4-tracking is "utter bilge", as a former Astronomer Royal once memorably described the prospect of space travel in 1956.
The diagram also misses out Lostock-Wigan and Victoria-Stalybridge plans.

 

[LDECRexile]

Scan of RAIL 776 p21 below.

"Four-tracking close to completion" section above the map is, er, creative.

The map correctly shows all the complexity around Newton-le-Willows and The Ince Moss Chord but has:

Man Vic to Salford Crescent as [already] "AC electrified" (red) instead of "To be AC electrified by date" (blue)
Salford Crescent to Crow Nest Jct via Atherton as [already] "AC electrified" (red) instead of "Not [to be] electrified" (black),
Ordsall Lane Jct-Salford Crescent as [already] "AC electrified" (red) instead of "To be AC electrified by date" (blue),

Lostock Jct-Crow Nest Jct as "Not [to be] electrified" (black) instead of "To be AC electrified by date" (blue)
Crow Nest Jct-Wigan as [already] "AC electrified" (red) instead of "To be AC electrified by date" (blue)

The line off east from Man Vic to Stalybridge is shown as "Not [to be] electrified" (black) instead of "To be AC electrified by date" (blue)

Apart from that it's OK.

The embracing article over pp20 and 21 is fine. The accompanying photo on p20 is smashing, but the caption might discombobulate strangers, notably the location of Ordsall Lane Jct "behind the block of flats in the background".

The p21 panel "Work carried out" says "Make changes to the Grade 2 listed Sankey Viaduct". Historic England say it is Grade 1 Listed, here:

http://list.historicengland.org.uk/resultsingle.aspx?uid=1075927

Not RAIL's finest hour, I'm afraid.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

but the caption might discombobulate strangers, notably the location of Ordsall Lane Jct "behind the block of flats in the background".

Miffage - TGBU - keep 'em coming.

 

[PDG1949]

Is that what they mean by "Rooster Transformer"?

If not, it Auto be....:roll:

 

[Leslie Fletcher]

I hope I can slip in with post #5000 to thank the contributors to this thread. It has been, still is and, I have every hope, will continue to be fascinating and informative in equal measure.

 

[WatcherZero]

This seems to have slipped through, published in March its ORR's official policy on 3rd rail electrification.

To abbreviate through paraphasing;

1. It must be safe.
2. There is a presumption against 3rd rail in new build or extended 3rd rail due to safety requirements.
3. Where 3rd rail exists the operator should continually review it whilst seeking improvements in design, operation and maintenance.

ORR considers that the weight of safety evidence creates a presumption against new-build or extended third rail being reasonably practicable. A duty holder will therefore need to demonstrate, to ORR’s satisfaction, that any proposed new-build or extended third rail proposal complies with the applicable legislation and be able to explain how and why it rebuts this presumption

http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0017/17621/dc-electrification-policy-statement.pdf

Where new 3rd rail extensions are proposed they must demonstrate;

1. They have considered the full range of options available.
2. Proceeding with 3rd rail is the only viable option.
3. How compliance with health and safety legislation will be achieved from the design stage onward.

In any renewal of a 3rd Rail section consideration must be given to replacing it.

 

[PDG1949]

I hope I can slip in with post #5000 to thank the contributors to this thread. It has been, still is and, I have every hope, will continue to be fascinating and informative in equal measure.

Thank you for taking the time to express your sentiments, Leslie - I'm sure we all appreciate your best wishes, whatever our individual viewpoints may be, towards a positive outcome.

 

[LDECRexile]

Paul and I did a tour today, mainly of the Blackpool line, but we both started on the Stephensons' masterpiece.

The stonemasons' work on Sankey Viaduct appeared complete, but scaffolding remains in place - is this to do with cleaning the structure? Does anyone know owt about this potentially thrilling task?

Paul took three shots at St Helens Junction which I have added to his album here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/sets/72157649792560381

and to the Combined Volume here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/sets/72157648494725811

Thank you Paul.

Edit:

Oops, missed one. I've now added another shot to the Combined Volume.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Paul and I did a tour today, mainly of the Blackpool line, but we both started on the Stephensons' masterpiece.

Excellent pictures as usual.
4118t (Oldfield Road Bridge) - interesting from the NR info panel that the EU TEN(T) fund has contributed to the electrification project.
It seems this is part of the North Sea-Mediterranean TEN corridor.
http://ec.europa.eu/transport/infra...maps_upload/corridors_png/C8_northsea_med.pdf

Note to any North Wales friends: the Crewe-Holyhead line is not part of the TEN corridor.
The connection to Ireland is the sea crossing Liverpool-Dublin.

 

[WatcherZero]

Yes it is,

http://ec.europa.eu/ten/transport/priority_projects_minisite/PP26EN.pdf
http://ec.europa.eu/ten/transport/maps/doc/axes/pp26.pdf
http://ec.europa.eu/transport/themes/infrastructure/doc/com(2011)_650_final_2_annex_i_part07.pdf

http://ec.europa.eu/budget/financia...port_may2010ongoing_projects_20100527_big.jpg

Edit: Of the 30 routes, 9 are 'core corridors', its not one of the core corridors but is one of the core passenger railways (and the road is one of the core road networks) the port at Holyhead is however only a 'comprehensive' port not a core one.

 

[LDECRexile]

I've now processed the photos Paul and I took yesterday.

I've added Paul's to his album here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/sets/72157649792560381

I've added all of his and all of mine to the Blackpool-Manchester album here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/sets/72157648767927083

I've also added some of them to the Liverpool-Manchester album here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/sets/72157648494725811

Thank you Paul.

 

[snowball]

In some Salford pictures such as 4380s, 4388l, 4392f-k, 4392w, there are a couple of electrification portals which span the Chat Moss lines but also span a space where there are no tracks.

I think this is provision for an aspect of the Ordsall Chord scheme, where (if it goes ahead!) tracks from the Chat Moss line are to be diverted north so as to go through the disused platforms at Salford Central, rather than bypass it to the south as they have always done until now.

 

[Geeves]

Good shots! Yes Snowball from the plans Ive seen Salford Central will have 5 platforms, two in the obvious gap and 1 round the outside where the Chatmoss Lines currently reside. The platform 5 line leads only onto the curve running on its own line on the viaduct that also becomes three lines till the junction of the curve.

Also if you look on the bridge beyond the station you'll notice the portals become gantries all with the bases on the right hand side, this is where the junction for the curve leaves the current line.

 

[LDECRexile]

In some Salford pictures such as 4380s, 4388l, 4392f-k, 4392w, there are a couple of electrification portals which span the Chat Moss lines but also span a space where there are no tracks.

I think this is provision for an aspect of the Ordsall Chord scheme, where (if it goes ahead!) tracks from the Chat Moss line are to be diverted north so as to go through the disused platforms at Salford Central, rather than bypass it to the south as they have always done until now.

Good shots! Yes Snowball from the plans Ive seen Salford Central will have 5 platforms, two in the obvious gap and 1 round the outside where the Chatmoss Lines currently reside. The platform 5 line leads only onto the curve running on its own line on the viaduct that also becomes three lines till the junction of the curve.

Also if you look on the bridge beyond the station you'll notice the portals become gantries all with the bases on the right hand side, this is where the junction for the curve leaves the current line.

Following on from Geeves's 2nd paragraph I attach below a copy of 4380j with three coloured lines crudely superimposed, trying to represent the future.

Is this where the tracks will be, with the 319 standing at Platform 5 and the two Ordsall Curve lines nearer the camera?

 

[snowball]

I'll need to check the plans but I think two of the lines should be drawn further to the left through the disused platforms.

The Chord and Hub plans themselves don't include reopening any platforms but Transport for Greater Manchester has secured funds from the DfT to increase the number of platforms from 2 to 5. I assume this will be done simultaneously with building the Chord if it overcomes its legal challenge.

A bit further to the west it will be necessary to widen a length of the Chat Moss line viaduct on the left side (as seen from a Liverpool to Victoria train) in order to enable two tracks to head towards the disused platforms.